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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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5 hours ago, AkaDemiK said:

 

Thry are adding an exp system?

Yeah there was a recent tweet I believe from Dersky or someone at 343 mentioning it as well as the custom game browser and other little additions as their MCC goals for 2019.

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Exp progression system is huge. As big as spectator mode would be for the comp scene an exp system will be much better for the overall population. I have no problem grinding a game just to get better or because I just have fun playing it but I know there are a ton of people who won’t play a game if there isn’t some sort of in game reward system for playing. 

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EXP system and military ranks would be huge. As much as I want a custom browser and spectator mode, adding an grinding incentive would do wonders for the population which is desperately needed

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15 hours ago, -DeucEy- said:

Okay, I kind of want to chime in lol. Because the conversation, while very funny, was also pretty interesting but I do feel like there are some perspectives missing here. 

As far as playing games without an abundance of power weapons on the map (read: not pistols only), I can say without hesitation that they are extremely fun to play. Anyone who was a bonafide H2 kid in here should feel the same way because odds are you probably did this very thing and played Tour de Walshes for 4 hours a day -- I damn sure know I did. Rifles only on the map with a pistol secondary start on Midship. Quite literally hours of nonstop entertainment and practice for everyone and it's honestly the way a lot of H2 players got significantly better. Also, throughout Halo history there has always been maps that don't an abundance of power weapons and they played great.

With all that being said.. It's not something that can sustain itself in it's entirety because it does get boring after a while but I made sure to try to stress after a while. The reason why this gets boring after a while is strictly due to the variety. It was something that I tried to point out with the Evolved settings early on before it ended up coming into fruition but I think I remember pointing out the the reactions on Halowaypoint for example when it was hinted that we may start removing a bunch of stuff off the map; the interest shot down immediately after that post in the thread but we were able to reel them back in after the correction. It's just really unappealing for a lot of people.

Based on reading the last 10 or so pages, I don't think @My Namez BEAST was looking to make a case for a permanent replacement for the current maps. I think he was trying to point out that a lot of the same dynamics of the game, such as map movement, can be accomplished in other ways that don't involve rockets; which he's right about. But I also have to agree with some of the points @Basu and @Hard Way and the others were saying that if you don't have a desire to just grind and get better I can see it being a drag for people. A lot of people genuinely like moving amongst the map and trying to control areas for weapons; it's extremely hard to top the appeal variety has to most players and doing the same thing can be rather monotonous (especially if you're not that good at the game and already know what the result is going to be).

As far as the "skill" that each side of the argument has; neither side can ever be wrong about the topic because there will always be a skill present. The only difference is what skill.

  • Timing pushes/pinching teams on power weapon spawns is a skill
  • Staying alive in fights long enough for your teammates to get there in pistols only matches is a skill
  • Pistol fights themselves is a skill
  • Positioning with power weapons is a skill (and has a lot more variables than you think, especially in high level play -- it's not as simple as Sniper -> S3 -> Win lol)

I can go on and on, on the skill discussion but there's always two sides to that coin.

That's more or less all I really wanted to say; be chill ya'll lol.

Thanks for chiming in. I think that this post covers both viewpoints fairly well without particular bias.

I'll agree that utility-weapon-only matches can definitely be fun for competitive warmups or for just grinding out that more isolated skillset for improvement. The maps in the past that emphasize this kind of gameplay are famous for promoting such raw gun-skill, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. As long as it is unique to those maps, utility-weapon-only matches in themselves even provide variety to the normal gameplay.

However, as the only type of Halo experience, competitive or not? Nah, please no. But I can easily see how such a mode (or rather, *map*), would be a favorite for some. Which obviously varies from person to person.

In regards to Evolved, I quickly lost interest in maintaining it once things kept having to be nerfed and removed, one by one, due to constant complaints from such a supposed 'preference' heavily influenced in our small group of testers(that never really grew, likely due in-part to this, as you had warned) by BEAST, Arg, and their crew. The drama of which unfortunately seemed to bleed out and show a little when 343I started looking at community gametypes for the then-upcoming classic playlist(which became H3 throwback). I'm still a bit embarrassed at how that played out.

Anyway, yeah, in regards to playing with Pistols-only vs having a bunch of pickups for Evolved, I can totally vouch for becoming disinterested in continually playing with mostly only pistols in almost every session when I spent most of my free time editing maps and gametypes in Forge, therefore leaving me in a state of almost perpetual rustiness against a group of testers that otherwise regularly plays AND is already better than me. Just like what you say about 'some not being as good at the game and already knowing what the result will be', I didn't find it very engaging after a while when I knew that I would constantly get destroyed by better players with the sole weapon of the game and not be able to do anything about it via no time to practice myself nor be able to contribute via other weapons and items found on the map. I'll admit before BEAST and them quote me, that yes, I was amongst the 'team-balance complainers'.

I like pickup weapons partially for this reason. I find it fun to be able to have the weapon advantage in certain situations and min-max the damage I take and receive, empowering me to take on more targets at once or back-to-back. One of my favorite things to do in any video game is trying to get into such situations and make the most of what I've got like that. I honestly personally enjoy a little rock-paper-scissors in my Halo. Especially if the game is built around a powerful jack-of-all-trades utility weapon allowing players to always be able to fight back against the surrounding sandbox that would preferably complement it. I don't enjoy fighting against things that have no counters either. In Evolved, we dropped the BR because in those settings it became a 3sk vs the Magnum's 4sk, and flat out overpowered it and the rest of the sandbox as a straight up better utility weapon. But I otherwise enjoy getting auto spraydowns in CQC knowing that the opponent just has to simply hit a perfect for a significantly faster killtime than my auto. I enjoy trying to Shotgun or Sword someone knowing that, with ideal balance, they can simply backpedal and keep their distance rendering my weapon useless. I enjoy getting a surprise Needler or Plasma Pistol noob combo knowing that if the target is aware of it coming, they have to just simply peekshoot in and out of cover, causing all tracking projectiles to curve into the wall and subsequently do absolutely nothing. I enjoy trying to get a Rocket or some other explosive kill against someone at long range or with simply the high ground, and having them be able to avoid/jump over it, or have nowhere for the blast radius to hit and connect to the player, all before the slow projectile gets there and explodes. I enjoy having a Sniper or say, a LR for long range knowing that someone simply has to get close with their faster firing and more reactive utility weapon against my long range weapons which should usually be harder to use in CQC.

I mean, it is simple Art of War basics. You should generally never try to challenge strength against strength, especially knowing that you could likely lose. You instead try to pit strength against weakness, to stack the odds in your favor. This is why the teamshot numbers game is so strong and important. Having niche map pickups and power items is just another way to showcase that.

And in kind of a reverse kind of sense, map pickups encourage me to practice more with my utility weapon ANYWAY so that I *can* acquire and use said pickups more often, as well as better counter them when used against me. Therefore the engagement and motive to get better just compounds itself. I think that having a good and diverse set of per-map sandbox experiences would be the best way to appeal to everyone here. Unfortunately, good forge maps (that didn't have framerate issues) were very hard to find back then. RIP.

To be fair to BEAST 'n friends though, Evolved never did literally become pistols-only, even though it seemed like that was exactly what they wanted and felt like it was a fight for me to keep that from actually happening. Ugh, this damn conversation has us bringing up ALL the old crap now, lol. I'm still a bit salty about how Evolved got 'ruined' (I DID ask for feedback, and got it, lol) in my eyes, but it was honestly a good learning experience, regardless. I'm glad Evolved managed to at least get SOME attention, and am still thankful to everyone who tried to help out, or even revive it. At least 343I FINALLY put it in the featured section.

With all that being said though, yeah, H5 especially, has some particularly garbage sandbox balancing. I learned that only moreso with Evolved. Half the point of the gametype (the other half-point being classic movement) was to help prove and promote the common Teambeyond consensus back then that a 4sk Magnum alone would balance the utility weapon against the rest of the sandbox, even if only at a surface level. In general, it did, IMO. But due to lack of adequate methods to fine-tune and rebalance the rest of the sandbox in-depth, that whole side of the project proved to ultimately be an exercise in futility.

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Smartan IIRC we didn't start removing a ton of weapons from Evolved until after it was already dead and we wanted to make it more fun for our own small group's personal custom games, so I don't think that had any impact on why Evolved died off.

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Yea I mean we literally still had ar starts even after HCS removed them lol. If default h5 could actually change then us trying to have classic "competitive settings" with guns that even h5 players admitted were dumb then that just makes us look like tards. In actuality we kept all the weapons you wanted for as long as you yourself played the settings. As Nick said we removed most things after evolved was already dead because our core group of 6 or so all preferred it that way. The only things we really removed before that were other rifles because they were just straight upgraded from the pistol. And everyone agreed that was the case and it was even a thing people complained about in default. Again it was something that EVEN CHANGED IN HCS so it's safe to say our choice was well warranted. 

Now to dive into the meat of all this. Your post admits EXACTLY why so many of the more skilled players wanted certain weapons gone. You admit that you would be demoralized losing because of straight gunskill and positioning against people using the exact same weapon as you. And that you enjoy getting the cheese kills because it was more fun to you. And that you like the weapons in general because it allows you to still get kills. Don't you see why this would be annoying to the people that are on the opposite end? Imagine constantly beating someone whenever you guys get into utility battles. But all of a sudden you get a few deaths here and there simply because he picked up an easier gun. The same kids that was getting beaten before. 

Now that opinion wasn't even an issue. And had you been straightforward from the jump we woudknt have asked to remove shit. But that's not how this went down. You asked for feedback. We gave you all the feedback we could. But you didn't want the game to be competitive even though that's what we all thought was happening. You just wanted a fun mini game thing to play. Which is perfectly fine. But you never told us this until we all got into a huge argument over the finalized evolved settings that you published without telling ANY of the people that actually played the settings. You had stopped playing months prior but used the "I created the settings" argument which is when things REALLY got to a weird point. 

And as far as playtime come on now. You can't blame lack of play time when you could've grinded the same way we did. We even had this exact conversation lol. You said you didn't grind because you didn't like the game. It wasn't a time issue you just didn't want to put in the work to get better. When you add that into account on top of trying to keep the settings nooby you can see why we started to get frustrated. We grinded the game to improve and you would just try and come in after not playing and still want to do well. And that's simply not what we thought the game should play like. We wanted competitive games. We played the game like it was a competitive game. We put in the time to improve and we offered to help you too. But again you didn't want to. 

Also idk why we keep posting this awkwardly personal shit on the forum. Every issue the 2 of you guys have had coudlve easily been sorted out in a party chat. Instead of holding on to all this stuff that no one even knew about we coudlve handled this like normal people. 

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Being good with the utility weapon makes you good at Halo like being good at shooting free throws makes you good at basketball. It’s a fundamental skill and to even think about competing you need to be good with the utility but there is a lot more that goes into being good at halo. The rockets may be nukes in CE but they aren’t given out to anyone. They spawn consistently and are contestable every time with the most capable utility weapon in the series. This applies to camo/OS as well. Despite those items being “easy” CE still has a massive skill gap compared to later halos and they are more numerous and spawn far more frequently in CE than in any other game in the series. There’s nothing wrong with enjoying being good at shooting hoops and making free throws but you still have to be able to dribble to play basketball. Subjectively you can enjoy playing customs without power weapons more than regular settings but you aren’t playing “real” halo. Objectively speaking for the skill gap and competitive merit of the game (when done right) they are a good thing not a bad thing.

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13 minutes ago, LI Mr X IL said:

Subjectively you can enjoy playing customs without power weapons more than regular settings but you aren’t playing “real” halo. 

Lmao. Count me the fuck outta real Halo.

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You could argue putting PW in obj over complicates everything and makes the mode less accessible. That's part of why I can see removing them from those modes at the least. Slayer is a different story but we're not talking about just Slayer here.

 

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56 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Lmao. Count me the fuck outta real Halo.

It’s fine that your preferred way of playing halo but to be fair it really isn’t real halo. That sounds like an elitist clingy thing to say but it’s the best way to describe it. It is a small niche way of playing halo not really played by casuals or pros other than as a drill to get better. 

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Had no idea this was a thing. Has anyone played with this on the Insider?

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3 minutes ago, LI Mr X IL said:

It’s fine that your preferred way of playing halo but to be fair it really isn’t real halo. That sounds like an elitist clingy thing to say but it’s the best way to describe it. It is a small niche way of playing halo not really played by casuals or pros other than as a drill to get better. 

I think that's a pretty dumb definition, lol. 

11 minutes ago, Nokt said:

Had no idea this was a thing. Has anyone played with this in the preview?

Yes, and it's god-tier. Fixes the diagonal speeds, and makes the general experience so smooth. It won't fix Halo 3's broken BR, but being able to properly aim will make it tolerable to play. I love it.

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6 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Yes, and it's god-tier. Fixes the diagonal speeds, and makes the general experience so smooth. It won't fix Halo 3's broken BR, but being able to properly aim will make it tolerable to play. I love it.

More excited for HCE, but downloading preview right now just to play with it.

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17 minutes ago, Nokt said:

Had no idea this was a thing. Has anyone played with this on the Insider?

Looks cool. I know in h1 at least, diagonal aiming is a bit weird. A lot of people have the muscle memory to whip their reticle in a partial circle/arc rather than take the straight diagonal path.

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6 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Weirdly salty response. 

You've spent who knows how long being salty about power weapons. I figured you deserved an appropriately salty response.

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3 minutes ago, Bonesaw said:

Looks cool. I know in h1 at least, diagonal aiming is a bit weird. A lot of people have the muscle memory to whip their reticle in a partial circle/arc rather than take the straight diagonal path. 

I remember watching this youtube video where the guy basically was trying to prove MCC had weird aiming compared to the OG, but instead just showed this weird diagonal aiming that was in the original trilogy. Its pretty cool that they are updating this, though there are still a lot of other things I wished were getting fixed.

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1 minute ago, Ethereal Nights said:

You've spent who knows how long being salty about power weapons. I figured you deserved an appropriately salty response.

Yeah, which wasn't a personal affair, lol. Just an argument that I don't like them. You making it personal is the weird part. 

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Just now, TheIcePrincess said:

Yeah, which wasn't a personal affair, lol. Just an argument that I don't like them. You making it personal is the weird part. 

I've made arguments personal before. That ain't it.

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