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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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My understanding is that beast and ice feel putting emphasis on shooting skill with the base loadout options to be the only important aspect of the game. Myself and others feel that while this is a very important part of halo, there are other parts of the game that add depth such as strategy and coordination for timed pushes for power weapons.

Not only this, but once power weapons are in use they change how interactions take place and add interesting dynamics that wouldn't be seen with base loadouts only. They do take skill to use effectively and are not guaranteed kills however poor decision making and lack of teamwork can allow them to roll over your team regardless of how accurate your shot is with the BR. 

While I agree this style of gameplay can work for maps such as heritic or onslaught which focus on gunplay and positioning these gamestypes can also suffer from snowballing where there is often no reason to abandon power positions which give players advantages over spawning players in the same way as power weapons. Power weapons force teams to decide how to spread resources and often prevent back to back caps from happening.

Beast also said he thinks that respawning at a disadvantage is detrimental to the competitive experience which I think power weapons helps with when considering map geometry which he has also stated is an important aspect of the game.

I can understand how they find enjoyment from specific qualities of halo but stating that they are all that halo is about is incorrect from my point of view where playing for and against power ups/weapons/positions has always  been important in halo. Always. 

Hopefully I've atleast put my points across decently as ice has said she is open minded to discussion

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5 minutes ago, II7 HUNTER II7 said:

My understanding is that beast and ice feel putting emphasis on shooting skill with the base loadout options to be the only important aspect of the game. Myself and others feel that while this is a very important part of halo, there are other parts of the game that add depth such as strategy and coordination for timed pushes for power weapons.

Not only this, but once power weapons are in use they change how interactions take place and add interesting dynamics that wouldn't be seen with base loadouts only. They do take skill to use effectively and are not guaranteed kills however poor decision making and lack of teamwork can allow them to roll over your team regardless of how accurate your shot is with the BR. 

While I agree this style of gameplay can work for maps such as heritic or onslaught which focus on gunplay and positioning these gamestypes can also suffer from snowballing where there is often no reason to abandon power positions which give players advantages over spawning players in the same way as power weapons. Power weapons force teams to decide how to spread resources and often prevent back to back caps from happening.

Beast also said he thinks that respawning at a disadvantage is detrimental to the competitive experience which I think power weapons helps with when considering map geometry which he has also stated is an important aspect of the game.

I can understand how they find enjoyment from specific qualities of halo but stating that they are all that halo is about is incorrect from my point of view where playing for and against power ups/weapons/positions has always  been important in halo. Always. 

Hopefully I've atleast put my points across decently as ice has said she is open minded to discussion

We never said that's what halo is all about. We said that's what we enjoy. Lol. That was the entire point. We know what power weapons add to the game we just don't like it enough to warrant keeping them. That was all we were saying. 

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3 minutes ago, II7 HUNTER II7 said:

 

That is the most skillful aspect lol. Mastering your starting weapon and your overall positioning is the most difficult part of Halo. 

That quote literally didn't change or contradict anything I stated stop trying to bait pls 

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2 hours ago, Basu said:

Yes it's less skillful because you remove and entire layer of strategy and decision making in order to put more emphasis on gun fights with the primary weapon, which historically hasn't been hard to use outside of CE and H3, games which you two shit on all the time. So yeah I'm "listening" but I can't make the link between "remove all items on map" and "Halo is now better".

What strategy is there, per say. We know timing the weapons isn't really a skill, using them sure as fuck isn't a skill, so is getting to them a skill? Because even if two teams rush them (On Pit, just hypothetically speaking), we know it's a matter of one team getting a pick and then the rest snowballs. Which isn't really a skill either, killing one player leading to rocks being obtained, allowing for a pretty free trainrun on a team that could very well be doing nothing inherently punishable. It can literally boil down to a "random" (Heavy quotes) nade toss just dicking a guy down, and that 8 second window can lead to an immediate collapse. Or on the flip side, we circumstantially walk by them and pick them up. While there can maybe be coordination in pushing up for a weapon, there can be just as much circumstance in it. And I think it'd be better to just push the coordination aspect into the objective over something that doesn't require skill in its use or timing. Because when you pick up that flag, you're at least slowing yourself down. And making yourself a target. So it actually has some risk for the reward. Rather than a reward with sometimes minimal risk that gains the larger reward easily.

Let's shoot forward three games, to Halo 5. A map and game that just defines how things can play so well, if not better without power weapons, and minimal powerups. Which is funnier for this point. Almost everyone here ditched Halo 5 Arena within a few months to a year, so they didn't actually play the changed Truth from launch. Which originally had a sword, then had a fuel rod. And now it has next to nothing, bar camo, which is something you can actually generally contest (Generally). And it plays ten times better than it did because these weapons don't exist. So you're not being pegged from mid to window by an explosive, or being charged at by a sword in CQC. So you literally have so much more room to just fly, even when radar shows you. And you can actually move without being blasted to bits.

Also, Halo 3's BR isn't hard to use. It's just inconsistent as fuck, lol. Big difference. But that's besides the point, even if the utility of the game isn't the hardest thing on the planet. It doesn't need to be to still be leagues harder than the power weapons it's alongside. Goes for any Halo. And I don't get why the "the utility's still easier" argument is thrown around (saw it elsewhere, can't quote it, currently) as if giving us easier power weapons is a solution, or somehow valid because of the aforementioned ease. Oh no, the Halo 2/4 BR isn't superbly hard. There are still gonna be people who're faster, better, and smarter than you who can outshoot you. You don't need to be any of those to use rockets.

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I would try the customs but dude this seems real personal to you at this point. All the posts are a wow lmao deep fried meme vibe.

Last time this was brought up I thought a few very important factors worth discussing was map design and the utility weapon's strength vs ease of use. I don't think any Battle Rifle in the series is skullful enough on its own to warrant the gameplay. Halo 2's BR is enhanced with the button combos. H2A shows just how bland this is.

This is one reason I ask about the maps. It'd be nice to toy around with the magnetism and auto aim and find a good balance. I honestly think an h3 br with no spread would be pretty viable.

this could be a pretty good discussion. It seems like it's just snipers and rockets but I am curious about other weapons, like the shotgun and plasma pistol. They often netted easier kills when used properly in their niche than a sniper.

 

 

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Just now, Teapot said:

I would try the customs but dude this seems real personal to you at this point. All the posts are a wow lmao deep fried meme vibe.

Last time this was brought up I thought a few very important factors worth discussing was map design and the utility weapon's strength vs ease of use. I don't think any Battle Rifle in the series is skullful enough on its own to warrant the gameplay. Halo 2's BR is enhanced with the button combos. H2A shows just how bland this is.

This is one reason I ask about the maps. It'd be nice to toy around with the magnetism and auto aim and find a good balance. I honestly think an h3 br with no spread would be pretty viable.

this could be a pretty good discussion. It seems like it's just snipers and rockets but I am curious about other weapons, like the shotgun and plasma pistol. They often netted easier kills when used properly in their niche than a sniper.

 

 

I've said that I think that a game like H5 is great with no power weapons. A pretty difficult weapon and some good movement skill. That's what I like. I've also said that niche things don't really bother me if they're balanced properly. There's a huge difference between the H3 PR and the H5 BPR from hell. I just don't like POWER weapons. Yea game alike h2a and H2 will get bland kinda quick because the gun is easy. But if you had a gun like the H5 magnum it becomes way more important to actually work on your shot. Even to the last tournament you had people that could clearly outshoot people better than the rest. H5 with no power weapons is honestly one of the funniest halos ive ever played. 

And man you can't say that I'm the one taking it personally. Read the way people have been reacting to Kelly and I over the past few times this had been brought up. 

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1 hour ago, My Namez BEAST said:

LOL now this is gold. Yea the game with a starting weapon that literally can't contest anything. Let's add MORE power weapon. Lolololoolololol

That's true, h3 is all around trash. 

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1 hour ago, II7 HUNTER II7 said:

This idea is terrible, think about it. Rockets on 90 second timers would mean there were 40 rocket shots in a 15 minute game. That's 40 guaranteed kills per game from winning the first rocket launcher of spawn when considering the snow balling effect they have. After winning the first intereraction of the game you have essentially secured the win because you become an unkillable juggernaught when holding a power weapon.

How about power ITEMS instead of just rockets? 

The game is slow AF, and OS/camo's current timers contribute to that (among several other factors, of course)

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48 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

What strategy is there, per say. We know timing the weapons isn't really a skill, using them sure as fuck isn't a skill, so is getting to them a skill? Because even if two teams rush them (On Pit, just hypothetically speaking), we know it's a matter of one team getting a pick and then the rest snowballs. Which isn't really a skill either, killing one player leading to rocks being obtained, allowing for a pretty free trainrun on a team that could very well be doing nothing inherently punishable. It can literally boil down to a "random" (Heavy quotes) nade toss just dicking a guy down, and that 8 second window can lead to an immediate collapse. Or on the flip side, we circumstantially walk by them and pick them up. While there can maybe be coordination in pushing up for a weapon, there can be just as much circumstance in it. And I think it'd be better to just push the coordination aspect into the objective over something that doesn't require skill in its use or timing. Because when you pick up that flag, you're at least slowing yourself down. And making yourself a target. So it actually has some risk for the reward. Rather than a reward with sometimes minimal risk that gains the larger reward easily.

Let's shoot forward three games, to Halo 5. A map and game that just defines how things can play so well, if not better without power weapons, and minimal powerups. Which is funnier for this point. Almost everyone here ditched Halo 5 Arena within a few months to a year, so they didn't actually play the changed Truth from launch. Which originally had a sword, then had a fuel rod. And now it has next to nothing, bar camo, which is something you can actually generally contest (Generally). And it plays ten times better than it did because these weapons don't exist. So you're not being pegged from mid to window by an explosive, or being charged at by a sword in CQC. So you literally have so much more room to just fly, even when radar shows you. And you can actually move without being blasted to bits.

I'm curious to where this idea of snowballing comes from. I'm sure we have all had experiences of getting snowballed, but I have high doubts its because your opponents picked up rockets first, got 4 kills with them, and some how that just turned into this onslaught with an ending score of 15-50. Sure it gives the enemy team the advantage for a temporary time of having map control, but rockets don't even guarantee that. Halo has more depth than just who picks up power weapons first. Like seriously go watch any like skilled players (preferably pros) who snowball the other team because they picked up rockets first on the pit. It doesn't dictate the entire game, the team that picks them up first don't keep map control the entire game, and they don't keep getting all of the power weapons every time. If the opposing team continually gets power weapons its highly more likely there is a skill differential rather than a game being dictated power weapons. High level gameplay shows this.

Sword/Sprint has problems in Halo 5 regardless of the map, I don't think any of the competitive maps had the sword in it besides Truth unless I'm mistaken. Fuel Rod would have worked a lot better if it would have stuck around until after the radar changes, but I don't believe it did. The biggest problem with Halo 5 for a long time was the radar.

 

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Just now, My Namez BEAST said:

Uhhhhh ok 

Ah hah, so you are avoiding the hard question.

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17 minutes ago, Nokt said:

I'm curious to where this idea of snowballing comes from. I'm sure we have all had experiences of getting snowballed, but I have high doubts its because your opponents picked up rockets first, got 4 kills with them, and some how that just turned into this onslaught with an ending score of 15-50. Sure it gives the enemy team the advantage for a temporary time of having map control, but rockets don't even guarantee that. Halo has more depth than just who picks up power weapons first. Like seriously go watch any like skilled players (preferably pros) who snowball the other team because they picked up rockets first on the pit. It doesn't dictate the entire game, the team that picks them up first don't keep map control the entire game, and they don't keep getting all of the power weapons every time. If the opposing team continually gets power weapons its highly more likely there is a skill differential rather than a game being dictated power weapons. High level gameplay shows this.

Sword/Sprint has problems in Halo 5 regardless of the map, I don't think any of the competitive maps had the sword in it besides Truth unless I'm mistaken. Fuel Rod would have worked a lot better if it would have stuck around until after the radar changes, but I don't believe it did. The biggest problem with Halo 5 for a long time was the radar.

 

I didn't say the game overall would be a snowball. Never did. Just said the fact these easy ass weapons can determine a portion of it is stupid, because there's minimal skill to the actual use of said weapons, and that said coordination in getting them could be focused elsewhere to better effect as Truth shows.

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If positioning is the hardest thing to learn why wouldn't we want more things to position for? 

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1 minute ago, My Namez BEAST said:

You're a legend bro can I have your autograph 

Maybe once your taste in weapons aligns with the rest of my fan club.

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1 minute ago, OG Nick said:

If positioning is the hardest thing to learn why wouldn't we want more things to position for? 

Because what you're positioning for has the end result of requiring minimal skill to use. Besides, why have more things to position for when half of them suck to use, lol. Would rather it just be barebones. 8 people, 2 flags, go nuts.

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