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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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16 minutes ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

Let’s say 1 team gets a cap. What’s to stop that team from just playing defense until the game ends by the timer hitting 0? With rockets, and power ups they will have no choice because now you can no longer play the waiting game. I’ve won games where my team did this. Simply because we could. 

We have been through this a hundred times. Turtling is NOT a viable strategy in CRY games. You are putting your team at a DISADVANTAGE if you play defensively after 1 cap. And wow that's great that you've won games doing that. I've won slayer games without picking up any power weapons. Does that mean power weapons are useless? Does that mean that was the optimal way to Play? 

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2 hours ago, My Namez BEAST said:

We have been through this a hundred times. Turtling is NOT a viable strategy in CRY games. You are putting your team at a DISADVANTAGE if you play defensively after 1 cap. And wow that's great that you've won games doing that. I've won slayer games without picking up any power weapons. Does that mean power weapons are useless? Does that mean that was the optimal way to Play? 

No sims simply stating that power ups and power weapons are meant to prevent turtling and it does a fine job at that for the most part.

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Has anyone ever considered that securing a powerful, big fucking weapon and briefly wrecking the enemy team's shit with it is, call me crazy, fun?

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4 minutes ago, The Tyco said:

Has anyone ever considered that securing a powerful, big fucking weapon and briefly wrecking the enemy team's shit with it is, call me crazy, fun?

Ice clearly hasn’t 

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2 hours ago, Fixaimingsorry said:

Ice clearly hasn’t 

Oh, I've considered it. But it's almost like it isn't fun to have an automatic killswitch in a gunfight, and putting effort into your fights is more rewarding.

7 hours ago, Knighty Knight said:

Comedy, Ice. I'm dying.

Thought provoking response.

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4 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

 

Thought provoking response.

 

I could sit down with you and explain in detail high level gameplay & you'd still say I was wrong so instead I'm complimenting your ability to keep me entertained.

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4 minutes ago, Knighty Knight said:

I could sit down with you and explain in detail high level gameplay & you'd still say I was wrong so instead I'm complimenting your ability to keep me entertained.

You could literally go nuts with that. I'm seriously open to having my mind be changed. Of course, you kinda shoot yourself in the foot the moment you say "I could do X, but I won't because Y" with a flimsy response. In this case, you won't because you think I'll say you're wrong, when you actually haven't even engaged, lol. I don't think we've actually spoken together, ever. If you think you know so much, then lay it on me. Got alllllllll the time in the world. But why talk in the first place if you're gonna end up circling to a point where you won't offer up a viewpoint or argument past what is a pretty passive aggressive (Maybe pretentious from a certain PoV) comment while saying the potential is there. Just a dumb waste of breath, lol. 

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Every thread needs someone that goes against the grain because he/she has no actual concept or knowledge of what the fuck they are talking about. We’ve seen this time and time again In halo discussions. Just be entertained by it (like knighty) and don’t waste your time engaging in any serious discussions. 

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Having power weapons is about promoting map movement, timing, coordinating pushes and how you and your team chooses to spread your resources. Having them on the map creates interesting engagements and puts emphasis on decision making. Their placement on the map (often in exposed or disadvantageous areas) is incredibly important to how that map flows and adds depth in that way. Earning power weapons puts you at an advantage and can lead to flag caps and ball time. They empower the individual in games that rely on teamshooting. By not getting them you put your team at a massive disadvantage and changes the way you'll have to play and coordinate together to prevent the enemy capitalising.

Plus it's not like the BR takes a huge amount of skill to use.

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9 hours ago, My Namez BEAST said:

We have been through this a hundred times. Turtling is NOT a viable strategy in CRY games. You are putting your team at a DISADVANTAGE if you play defensively after 1 cap. And wow that's great that you've won games doing that. I've won slayer games without picking up any power weapons. Does that mean power weapons are useless? Does that mean that was the optimal way to Play? 

I mean what do you consider turtling? I’ve always considered it sitting back inside or near your base. 

Its not the same as maintaining map control and power weapons/abilities, but not pushing for OBJ. It’s still not optimal either way, but when are you ever playing optimally at all times?

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1 hour ago, Nokt said:

I mean what do you consider turtling? I’ve always considered it sitting back inside or near your base. 

Its not the same as maintaining map control and power weapons/abilities, but not pushing for OBJ. It’s still not optimal either way, but when are you ever playing optimally at all times?

The issue with what he said was that without power weapons teams would just turtle after going up a cap. I imagine he means playing defensive around his own base. That's pretty much what turtling is. Even on maps that don't have any power weapons that is not a good strategy for exactly the reasons you said. You're giving up map control, spawn control, and you're keeping the score deficit to a minimum. If you play any CTF map and start to turtle immediately after you're probably not going to do too well. You give the enemies a TON of chances to collapse on your base and they can keep getting to your side uncontested.

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1 hour ago, My Namez BEAST said:

The issue with what he said was that without power weapons teams would just turtle after going up a cap. I imagine he means playing defensive around his own base. That's pretty much what turtling is. Even on maps that don't have any power weapons that is not a good strategy for exactly the reasons you said. You're giving up map control, spawn control, and you're keeping the score deficit to a minimum. If you play any CTF map and start to turtle immediately after you're probably not going to do too well. You give the enemies a TON of chances to collapse on your base and they can keep getting to your side uncontested.

That’s part of what I meant. It also can depend on the map. 

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Two things that go unsaid far too often in this discussion:

1. Having different weapons forces players to learn different skillsets. Yes, they might be easier to use in some cases, but are invariably harder to use in others. Ever tried to hit a guy with a rocket that's in midair and has soared out at you because he saw that you had rockets? Ever had a guy surprise you at close range, and had to have the trigger discipline to hold your fire and find the angle to get the rocket behind him and not kill yourself, knowing that if you die before shooting, you'll leave him with more ammo? Or how about getting a shotgun kill once they know where you are and know you have shotgun? Sure, you can say "just stay in close range areas", but A) you might get naded out, or B) no one comes for you and now you're irrelevant. And if that area is vital to the game flow, extremely conducive to shotgun use, AND there's a shotty on the map, then shame on the map designer, not the weapon.

You can't tell me there's not a skill gap to every weapon. Even super easy weapons like the shotgun require you to play sneaky and keep it a secret. Weapons like the Conc Rifle/Brute Shot absolutely take some practice to get good use out of (especially if they let you boost jump with them). The PR in H1 is another great example of a weapon that on paper isn't that tough to use, but finding the right opportunities and executing properly is an understated skill. I see people blow it with the PR all the time. They aren't "free kills" by any means. Even rockets aren't free. How often do you go 4 for 4 with rockets? Every time? Probably not. Even top tier H1 guys can't do it consistently. Turning over rockets to the enemy is a big deal, and it should be a big deal. Missing with the rockets is a big deal. Yes, they're easy kills most of the time, but there's also a lot of pressure to perform with them. Learning different playstyles to excel with a different weapon so that you can do things that would otherwise be impossible is a good thing. I can't believe I even have to say that.

 

2. You can do things that are otherwise impossible. Power weapons in OBJ allow you to get quick kills with minimal shield loss, which open up opportunities to actually play the objective. Without them, every kill comes with a substantial shield cost, and theres very little opportunity to play the obj. This can be alleviated through map design like Midship, Warlock, Onlaught and Amplified etc, but then you're extremely limited in viable map design, and the game gets boring as shit through that alone. Nevermind the fact that you have far fewer talents to develop, which is also boring. In Slayer, ideally, the weapons are there to help you get the powerups, and the powerups are what wins the game and forces the movement (since they expire whereas weapons don't). In some situations, you can put one weapon down that is so good that it forces movement too (rockets), but then you have to be careful with your map design so that strong powerup play can still beat it.

 

So in OBJ, like Beast said, you still get forced movement, and he's right about turtling being a bad strategy. But the lack of highly efficient kills can drastically draw out game length and render lots of map designs unviable. And that's not even factoring in the subjectively enjoyable aspects like big plays and playstyle variety. And slayer without items would be even worse. Every single map would have to have an arena layout so that setups aren't viable. Take a map that most people regard as a pretty good Slayer map, Beaver Creek. If you remove rockets, sniper OS and shotty, you get a boring as fuck standoff map. Unless it's an arena map, you need items for the map to play right.

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6 hours ago, II7 HUNTER II7 said:

1.) Having power weapons is about promoting map movement, timing, coordinating pushes and how you and your team chooses to spread your resources. 

2.) Having them on the map creates interesting engagements and puts emphasis on decision making.

3.) Their placement on the map (often in exposed or disadvantageous areas) is incredibly important to how that map flows and adds depth in that way.

4.) Earning power weapons puts you at an advantage and can lead to flag caps and ball time.

5.) They empower the individual in games that rely on teamshooting.

6.) By not getting them you put your team at a massive disadvantage and changes the way you'll have to play and coordinate together to prevent the enemy capitalising.

7.) Plus it's not like the BR takes a huge amount of skill to use.

1.) You get the same result through a flag on the map. Without having cheese on the map.

2.) Okay, but how. And how specifically does it do it in a way that (will be a running theme) a flag won't.

3.) You can still get the same result and movement, albeit a bit more varied without power weapons. Power positions still remain (For obvious reasons), so it's not like the game suddenly becomes a mess, and chaotic. Truth still plays superbly well, if anything, probably the best. And it has no power weapons on it, and used to, at that. It plays leagues better, now.

4.) Obviously, but so can gaining simple numbers advantages. I don't get why we need power weapons to snowball what is already an issue in Halo, lol.

5.) See, at this point, why not just buff your primary weapon's damage, lol. If I'm going to be empowered, the last thing I want is a CoD extreme where it results in lopsided fights, because only one person (at a minimum) and three (at a max) can have these weapons. Less than half the game's lobby gets the ability of "empowerment". 

6.) Obviously, again, but so can numbers advantages and the shifting map presence that comes with them. Going one down while defending your flag is already enough to haul ass on a flag in some cases, let alone how easy it makes a collapse when you simply outnumber and outgun your enemies. And going one down will conversely also shift how you move on the map for the 8 seconds it takes your teammate to respawn. I don't get why we need power weapons to still do what a flag will by nature.

7.) So does that mean we go to the radical opposite extreme and keep easy ass one hit kill weapons? The BR may be easy at its worst, but there is still some semblance of aim needed, alongside movement. Can't say the same for rockets, lol. Or snipers.

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I agree that if you look at engagements 1 dimensionally rockets can guarantee kills. For example I push lobby to closed purple and there is a guy there with rockets I am dead. But you have to think of the decisions and scenarios that led to that situation. Did I lose the push for rockets previously? If so I probably spawned basement. I should be avoiding closed spaces now especially bunching up with teammates. Did anyone call out he was there? I should be throwing grenades from gold or pincering him from both sides with a teammate. Or even better, wait for camo and push using that. Have my teammates distract with grenades from a safe location.

There's also the idea that choosing when to use rockets effectively is important. You may need use a rocket on a group or an objective player. Blocking spawns may also be a problem.

Obtaining overshield can result in a cap but creates an interesting dynamic where the team will now need to push with a guy coming from say runway instead of the better option of long hall and green.

Snipe is different in this respect as I think there is a reasonable skill gap with this weapon however it does put a large emphasis on making sure you use it effectively and not just farm kills from afar baiting teammates.

There's plenty of examples of where power ups and weapons add depth to the game and improve the experience but if you blindly run at a guy and die to rockets without thinking of what led to that happening you won't be able to appreciate them. The alternative is to just enjoy the gunplay of brs calling out and team shooting which are fun qualities in their own right in some scenarios.

 

Are you saying power weapons don't offer anything that an objective would? Having multiple objectives to spread resources for and at different times gives a ton of interesting scenarios to juggle and brings new strategies in-game. Coordinating around one objective isn't anywhere near as interesting. Another way objectives would differ is that they generally need whoever is holding them so the team has to account for this. Power weapons do the opposite, they make one player able to cover more options so the opposing team will have to play differently to counter it. Grouping together in pairs is favourable when team shotting with brs but an easy double kill when you know have lost the push for rockets 

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Since we seem to have started this discussion in two different threads I'll just put this part here

"Not only did you need to time the rockets and be coordinated enough to try to get them now that they're on the map you have to follow a decision tree on how to either avoid and/or contest the rocket player, support the rocket player if they're on your team, keep track of how many rockets are left, if they're loaded or not, or position and push at the right time if you are the rocket player. Its making every player on the map think twice at a high level."

The easiest way to explain that would be to say its a game within the game. Not only are you playing the obj like the flag you're also worrying about these rockets and how to play around them within the bounds of the CTF game. The same is often true of the overshield. What happens when the OS/camo and rocket timings mostly line up? What about the flag? It introduces multiple skill sets as Hard Way was saying but it also produces variance in what the right decision is at the time and helps to differentiate the smart decision maker from the average. If you try to tackle this with reduction via removal of weapons and/or power ups and say the flag is the only thing that matters you directly remove depth from the game. Mostly because you're focused on how easy the weapon is to use in the sense of physical dexterity for that one player while you're ignoring the ramifications and decision making going on across the map leading up to and after the weapon has spawned. That isn't to say that the weapon being too easy is never a concern either. The H5 snipe/railgun are prime examples of weapons that got so easy they mostly stopped having drawbacks and became uninteresting and very overpowered as a result. Rockets never really fall into this trap because of how useless they can get based on distance or circumstances such as you being below a jumping player etc

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13 minutes ago, Snipe Three said:

What happens when the OS/camo and rocket timings mostly line up?

I have always said the 9:00 hill on construct is a wild ride. Often a turning point in the game imo 

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17 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

3.) You can still get the same result and movement, albeit a bit more varied without power weapons. Power positions still remain (For obvious reasons), so it's not like the game suddenly becomes a mess, and chaotic. Truth still plays superbly well, if anything, probably the best. And it has no power weapons on it, and used to, at that. It plays leagues better, now.

 

Truth/Middy/2Base2Tower maps are pretty much the only scenario where this works though. Maybe Wizard but even that has a powerup top mid to stop people just sitting in the bases/plats all day. So in your "ideal Halo" all maps have to be super small symmetrical (we're only playing CTF remember) arenas or the game slows down to a crawl. Sounds boring as fuck to me.

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1 hour ago, Basu said:

Truth/Middy/2Base2Tower maps are pretty much the only scenario where this works though. Maybe Wizard but even that has a powerup top mid to stop people just sitting in the bases/plats all day. So in your "ideal Halo" all maps have to be super small symmetrical (we're only playing CTF remember) arenas or the game slows down to a crawl. Sounds boring as fuck to me.

Yikes literally everything you said is false lmaooooooo

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7 minutes ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Yikes literally everything you said is false lmaooooooo

Damn you really got me there with your amazing counter argument. 

 

Power weapons and powerups add incentives to move to less favorable positions, I don't see how this is so hard for you to understand. Why would I ever go to the OS cave on Beaver Creek if OS wasn't there? Or go to basement in Construct Hill. Or the plat where rockets spawn on Chilly/Hang em? 

There's more to maps that power positions and "LeTs AdD a FlAg" doesn't solve all those problems, it just stops people from completely turtling all game. Even in CTF power items add incentive to not bum rush the enemy flag and go out of your way to get them (crazy concept I know). 

Again, there are balancing issues with power items in recent games, but the mental gymnastics you guys go through to justify a complete removal of them is ridiculous. 

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