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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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Can you turn down aim acceleration for Halo 3 now? That was a huge reason I quit the game. The maps still suck but maybe I'll be able to look around like normal after 11 years.

 

Not with the currently available settings. You will be able to once this update that includes the Match Composer feature is released.

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Wait, so we want them to listen to feedback but when they incorporate feedback (adding mixtape matchmaking when it was initially beyond scope) we just claim they're lying to us?

 

 

Looks like you skipped over the part where they ignored people telling them that mixtape MM is needed for 4 years, then told them to fuck off because they don't feel like adding it, um excuse me "outside of the scope of the project" only to flip flop two weeks later and start teasing it like it's the best thing since sliced bread.

 

Look I'm excited for mixtape and I hope it actually works for once, but come on man they should have 100% delayed this update and work on mixtape and fixing game breaking shit like afk and quitting to rank up, region lock etc. They spent like 6 months arguing with people on Twitter about playlists and AR starts while ignoring people telling them to just add mixtape MM only to NOW add it after the relaunch hype was wasted on a half-assed botched 72 GB patch. Why exactly did they need to meet this arbitrary September 1st deadline? It's stupid,they should have aimed for a 4 year anniversary relaunch instead of the crappy half-cooked garbage we got.

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Are you trying to land a job with 343 or something?

 

Most of your posts seem to be critical of people criticizing 343 for not adequately fixing the game that was promised to Halo fans in 2014.

 

It doesn't require too great a deal of cognitive dissonance to both remain critical of 343 and criticize others for creating content that they perceive as nonconstructive.

 

 

Or when they stop lying to us ("MiXtApE MaTcHMaKiNG iS OuT oF teH ScOpE oF ThiS PrOJecT")

 

The cold, hard reality of software development is that project scope isn't always what it initially appears to be. Requirements change. Higher-ups change their minds. This sentiment is why game companies like Valve don't communicate virtually at all with their sub-communities. 

 

 

making asinine decisions like keeping AR and SMG starts and calling us sweaty tryhards in the process. Then I'll have a polite discourse with them.

Has Postums actually explicitly called someone a sweaty tryhard, or are you extrapolating from 343's past interactions with the community? Do you think there is any causality between the impolite discourse and said asinine decisions? 

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Are you trying to land a job with 343 or something?

 

Most of your posts seem to be critical of people criticizing 343 for not adequately fixing the game that was promised to Halo fans in 2014.

Cujjer is very active in the Discord’s that directly impact updates. He tests things regularly, and gives devs excellent feedback that they can easily use. He’s an extremely productive asset to our community. I think, and I’m not trying to put words in his mouth, but it may be that the contrast between the highly collaborative environment in the discords, and the bitter venting that is common on these boards, elicits a response that urges people to communicate more productively. He’s seen what works and what doesn’t. I think he wants us to portray ourselves as credible, so that we’re more likely to be listened to. Again, not trying to speak for him, but that’s my guess.

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Has Postums actually explicitly called someone a sweaty tryhard, or are you extrapolating from 343's past interactions with the community? Do you think there is any causality between the impolite discourse and said asinine decisions?

Postums has never called individuals by that name, but he has referred to BR starts as “sweatfests” or something similar. I don’t think he actually enjoys non-BR starts, but he’s trying to represent the player base as a whole, and SOMEHOW there are still people out there that want that garbage. I think he was trying to present their side of the argument.

 

To which I would say, at the risk of sounding arrogant, their views on Halo are incorrect, and unworthy of representation in matchmaking. Stop coddling these people with Kindergarten Halo, and start presenting Halo with the standard of quality that it deserves. I feel the same way about radar in ranked team games. It doesn’t belong.

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Cujjer is very active in the Discord’s that directly impact updates. He tests things regularly, and gives devs excellent feedback that they can easily use. He’s an extremely productive asset to our community. I think, and I’m not trying to put words in his mouth, but it may be that the contrast between the highly collaborative environment in the discords, and the bitter venting that is common on these boards, elicits a response that urges people to communicate more productively. He’s seen what works and what doesn’t. I think he wants us to portray ourselves as credible, so that we’re more likely to be listened to. Again, not trying to speak for him, but that’s my guess.

so do I but im all aboard team
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Cujjer is very active in the Discord’s that directly impact updates. He tests things regularly, and gives devs excellent feedback that they can easily use. He’s an extremely productive asset to our community. I think, and I’m not trying to put words in his mouth, but it may be that the contrast between the highly collaborative environment in the discords, and the bitter venting that is common on these boards, elicits a response that urges people to communicate more productively. He’s seen what works and what doesn’t. I think he wants us to portray ourselves as credible, so that we’re more likely to be listened to. Again, not trying to speak for him, but that’s my guess.

Why should the consumer have to portray themselves in a favourable light in order to be listened to by 343?

 

This doesn't happen in any other industry. If a product is faulty, the consumer has a right to be pissed and to bitch and moan about it. The burden should be on the supplier to fix whatever the problem is. The burden is not on the consumer to politely explain themselves in order to win the respect of the manufacturer.

 

This game is not what 343 advertised, and it's still buggy and broken four years later.

 

His posts come across as apologetic towards 343. I'm pretty sure he told Ogre 2 to 'play customs' when he criticised 343 for the long wait times.  

 

Whatever, though. I'm not too bothered; it's just a pattern I've noticed in his posts.

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so do I but im all aboard team And while I may know things its not like everyone else does.

 

 

I legit almost mentioned you in that post too because I know you do, but decided not to because he wasn't calling you out. Everything I said about Cujjer extends to you as well.

 

Why should the consumer have to portray themselves in a favourable light in order to be listened to by 343?

 

This doesn't happen in any other industry. If a product is faulty, the consumer has a right to be pissed and to bitch and moan about it. The burden should be on the supplier to fix whatever the problem is. The burden is not on the consumer to politely explain themselves in order to win the respect of the manufacturer.

 

This game is not what 343 advertised, and it's still buggy and broken four years later.

 

His posts come across as apologetic towards 343. I'm pretty sure he told Ogre 2 to 'play customs' when he criticised 343 for the long wait times.  

 

Whatever, though. I'm not too bothered; it's just a pattern I've noticed in his posts.

 

That's a fair point, and honestly that's the way it should be. This situation is a bit different though. The people working on the game legitimately need the help of the community willing to work with them. They flat out don't know what they're doing without us. Maybe they didn't play the OG games enough to see what's wrong, idk.

 

But because they have to work directly with members of the community, certain community members will carry more weight if they come across as credible. One of the fastest ways to have your voice filtered out is to give undeserved criticism. There's plenty of deserved criticism for this game, so there's no need to heap more blame on them for things they've gone out of their way to try to improve. There's a lot of people here that I feel "get it" when it comes to how this game should be presented. I'd hate to have their voices filtered out as noise because of the way they present themselves. We need those guys, so that we can outweigh the "TS is played to 50 in every other Halo, why not CE" crowd.

 

There are people advocating to replace H1 2v2 with fucking Infection due to low population. We need the smart people.

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you’re right in the fact we need more intelligent people presenting ideas, facts, and other important information to 343. Also you shouldn’t have to represent yourself politely but don’t be surprised when that fix takes forever and still isn’t fixed all the way. The current team is trying their best, and we can’t have tommy kost making a video of “false dedis” to make postums look like a liar/fool. Note tommy acknowledged that wasn’t his intention but postums took it as such. Tommy kost is one of the most intelligent people when it comes to halo, but 343 doesn’t listen to him anymore because of how he’s presented himself

they wouldnt listen to tommy before and his dedicated video actually had results. it's embarrassing that ranting like a child produces better results. kinda like how we lost 100 kill ce TS... people ranted like children.

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I'm all for credibility and professionalism, but the problem is that 343 launched an unfinished game. It is absolutely inexcusable that MCC launched so poorly, but it's also quite pathetic that a lot of 343 don't even understand the fucking game that they're developing and/or fixing. It's literally the definition of "not knowing how to do your job". I agree, they need our help to fix the game, because they don't know what they're doing without us with regards to playlists and gametypes. But it's just pathetic that they don't even understand any of it in the first place. How are you going to inherit a massive franchise that is so important to so many people for so many reasons... and understand it so poorly, to the point where you don't understand what makes Halo Halo? In more ways than one. They've both dragged Halo through the mud with advanced mobility while simultaneously making the "all in one" classic Halo experience a fucking mess. I don't advocate for being a complete ass to people like Postums in replies to him on Twitter (whatever your opinion of him is), but to people like Tommy Kost, who are just trying to solve problems while also displaying years' worth of frustration - I don't get why they're ignored. It just concretely solidifies the idea that 343 can't take an ounce of constructive criticism if it's coated in even the slightest negative tone. There's a difference between a buggy game with many issues and a completely broken game devoid of any functionality whatsoever that makes the purchase completely worthless. We got the latter with MCC and we've had it for four years. They promised an update - oh great! - and it's still half-assed, typical of 343. We have every right to display such frustration.

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Just posting this in response to some of the toxicity and dubious comments I've seen directed at members of this community that are just trying to be constructive and get the game fixed.

 

You've all seen my posts. I'm super critical of 343. I boycotted Halo 4, CEA, and Halo 5 for their poor decisions and horrible quality control. I have a three year old warning on my account I believe from some criticism I stated directly to Frankie on this forum.

 

But being toxic to individual employees is not the way to go. Especially to employees that didn't even work at 343 when MCC was released. You also need to empathize with their position and understand the immense volume of feedback they are receiving from all different angles. They are not making decisions in a vacuum or without thought. They are making compromises and trying to please thousands of fans who all have very different ideas of what Halo should be. I constantly see toxic feedback from fans that is the complete opposite of what other toxic feedback they've been receiving (ie party and rank matching). Making decisions in this environment is extremely difficult. Just writing them all off as liars and idiots is dehumanizing and disingenuous.

 

I remember when people here trashed Josh Holmes all the time. Hell you might even find a post or two in my history criticizing him. But I got to know the guy better and really understood he wasn't a bad person or an idiot. He even supported our grassroots efforts for Halo 1 by donating to the prize pool. He just had a vastly different idea of what Halo should be, and I think he used flawed logic and data to arrive at these design decisions, which anyone is susceptible to do from time to time.

 

I truly believe the current MCC team, having spoken to a lot of them at length, is doing the absolute best job they are capable of with the limited resources they have. And I find a lot of Postums interactions are taken out of context. For instance he was earlier criticized for leaving the Halo 2 discord. Someone brought this up to me before and I said "Well how toxic was the discord?" Instead of assuming he did it because he didn't want to hear criticisms, I put myself in his shoes and think about the things that would cause me to leave too. And to be honest some of the comments and trolling I've seen in the Halo 1 discord towards postums really disappoint me so I can only imagine how bad the halo 2 discord got.

 

Having said all that, that doesn't mean that you can't criticize at all. I told postums I thought his poll was flawed for CE 4v4 slayer kill limit. I've reminded 343 employees sharply that they mess up gametype settings constantly and they need better quality control over it before releasing updates. In turn I'm also understanding that the team is not comprised of hundreds of employees. But they are really trying. They are working 12 hour days and interacting on discord constantly on their off hours. These actions would not be coming from people who do not care about Halo. So I will defend them until they do something to break my trust.

 

Where harsher criticism does need to be directed at is 343 and Xbox Division as a whole. We need to explain to casual Halo fans what is still broken and raise awareness about it so more people put pressure on 343. We need to make it clear that MCC is still not satisfactory and that they need to expand and keep the fixmcc team on the project indefinitely until all bugs are addressed and all community wishes are fulfilled.

 

Being toxic to employees is doing more harm than good. Like Hard Way said you could all be adding to the chorus of constructive feedback to make sure the competitive community gets what they want. Or you could continue to be toxic and thus be ignored. I know what is a better use of my time.

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They flat out don't know what they're doing without us. Maybe they didn't play the OG games enough to see what's wrong, idk.

 

How hard is it for the franchise/platform holder to put the OGs side by side with the ports and check for differences? Or playtest Bungie's old matchmaking gametypes against their own? 343's/Microsoft's entire problem is them trying to second-guess the makers of the OGs and reinvent the wheel.

 

But being toxic to individual employees is not the way to go. Especially to employees that didn't even work at 343 when MCC was released.

 

I've criticized but never attacked the lower-ranking employees. The executives OTOH...

 

corpseofhalohfedv.jpg

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I remember when people here trashed Josh Holmes all the time. Hell you might even find a post or two in my history criticizing him. But I got to know the guy better and really understood he wasn't a bad person or an idiot. He even supported our grassroots efforts for Halo 1 by donating to the prize pool. He just had a vastly different idea of what Halo should be, and I think he used flawed logic and data to arrive at these design decisions, which anyone is susceptible to do from time to time.

 

People trashed Josh Holmes because he only ever came by to hock 343's current promotional bullshit, deflected all criticisms of the game (not him, the game), never answered any of our questions or demonstrated any amount of vertical communication within 343 that we were being listened, straight up lied to our faces in some aspects, and ended up resorting to taking pot shots at our community and members then ultimately disappearing off the face of the planet - just like every other 343 rep that's ever posted here.

 

The record is perfectly transparent. Every time 343 has sent someone out, we've been gracious to start out with. Then they decide that us asking questions and actually expecting meaningful non-corporatese feedback - that is to say, not making demands, but digging for info - is apparently disrespectful or unworthy of acknowledgement, and they shove off. 

 

Now I don't know whether or not 343 is more comfortable with semi-legitimate feedback occurring in a Discord channel where things aren't as wide-open and public as a place like this, but Postums has been the best we've got, and even then he's been something of a "runner" for the suggestions in Discord rather than an active participant in the discussion. 

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People trashed Josh Holmes because he only ever came by to hock 343's current promotional bullshit, deflected all criticisms of the game (not him, the game), never answered any of our questions or demonstrated any amount of vertical communication within 343 that we were being listened, straight up lied to our faces in some aspects, and ended up resorting to taking pot shots at our community and members then ultimately disappearing off the face of the planet - just like every other 343 rep that's ever posted here.

 

The record is perfectly transparent. Every time 343 has sent someone out, we've been gracious to start out with. Then they decide that us asking questions and actually expecting meaningful non-corporatese feedback - that is to say, not making demands, but digging for info - is apparently disrespectful or unworthy of acknowledgement, and they shove off. 

 

Now I don't know whether or not 343 is more comfortable with semi-legitimate feedback occurring in a Discord channel where things aren't as wide-open and public as a place like this, but Postums has been the best we've got, and even then he's been something of a "runner" for the suggestions in Discord rather than an active participant in the discussion. 

 

With no transparency, we're forced to come to our own conclusions. When a AAA title isn't functional on launch, or 4 years later and we're given no vertical communication or proper feedback, the conclusion is that the developers are uninsterested or unaware of how to fix the game.

 

If they came on here to help us explain what is happening, why changes were made and can do it without sounding condescending, it would do wonders. Until then, people who love the Halo games are going to keep coming up with their own conclusions as to why a $100 Million+ game still doesn't work 4 years after release.

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If they came on here to help us explain what is happening, why changes were made and can do it without sounding condescending, it would do wonders. Until then, people who love the Halo games are going to keep coming up with their own conclusions as to why a $100 Million+ game still doesn't work 4 years after release.

 

Don't worry, Frankie's been working on a thorough explanation for quite some time now. It should be incredibly in-depth, given the time it's taken him to write it. 

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Don't worry, Frankie's been working on a thorough explanation for quite some time now. It should be incredibly in-depth, given the time it's taken him to write it. 

 

He did release that.

 

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/84ad72a8b51847978545f685f651fc15/topics/halo-mcc-what-happened-and-what-happens-next/32dd5e4a-1001-4aae-b51b-22c091e8d21a/posts

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Honestly you do not even have to shit on 343. I know a lot of us have including myself but you can seriously just list off their work and the reception and sales in comparison to the first three main Halo titles and stop there. 

 

They don't release big gaming landscape changing projects. They don't have a good track record with complete and functional launches. They don't even have a good track record as far as fixing them goes. You don't even have to do anything. They shit on themselves at every turn. We should be ashamed we even talk about them or actually come back to check out the next game. This shit has been trash. Them not communicating or avoiding harsh criticism from their own consumers is the icing on the cake. Its the definition of bad business and most of us are actually dumb enough to come back and pay them anyways or try to help because bungie and MS were actually just that good with each other in 2001-2007. If by some miracle you work at 343 and you're reading this you should understand I'm talking about the collective and no individual when I say the work is trash. If that makes you feel bad anyways I'm not sorry. Put out something good and I'll say its good like I do/did with some of the more recent MCC changes despite it being years late.

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This is my favorite little gem from that whole thing:

 

 

The hardest messages to deal with were the ones driven by disbelief. “How could you not know that matchmaking was going to break?” – fundamentally it was because we were testing it in an environment that we had set up incorrectly and with some (as we discovered later) faulty assumptions. And unlike some of our other normal testing cycles, we weren’t testing for gameplay balance and stuff that the original releases already contained so our test process was radically different, and we made mistakes in some of the scenarios we asked for.

 

Without an explanation of what those assumptions were, to decide if they were actually reasonable, I have 0 faith that this was written with full honesty.  It also totally ignores the myriad obvious single player issues that any single playthrough could find. As if because they're better now they didn't exist at launch. Nobody thought, "hey we should try to get a lobby together with a bunch of people over the internet?" That's literally all it took to discover significant connectivity issues.  I don't know why i went back to read that, it insults my intelligence every time lol.

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 Nobody thought, "hey we should try to get a lobby together with a bunch of people over the internet?" That's literally all it took to discover significant connectivity issues.  I don't know why i went back to read that, it insults my intelligence every time lol.

 

That's not how testing environments work. It's explained right here:

 

"Fundamentally it was because we were testing it in an environment that we had set up incorrectly and with some (as we discovered later) faulty assumptions. And unlike some of our other normal testing cycles, we weren’t testing for gameplay balance and stuff that the original releases already contained so our test process was radically different, and we made mistakes in some of the scenarios we asked for."

 

You make it sound like they didn't get people connecting over the world to the test server. They 100% would have done that, probably hundreds if not thousands at a time for testing. But they were connecting to a dodgy test environment which, in their words, was set up incorrectly and with some (as we discovered later) faulty assumptions.

 

The game was functional for their test enviroment and they were confident moving it to production would work. They did not intend to do this:

 

what really happened:

 

343 execs: we want a game by this date. give it to us.

 

employees: Okay boss

 

6months later: yeah this shit doesnt even work at all yet we cant ship it

 

343 execs: does it have a title screen?

 

employees: yes but why does -

 

343 execs: we shipping

 

Statements like this, whilst amusing, assume that there is a conspiracy to release shit games. 343 to the best of their abilities did think MCC was going to work.

 

I'm not defending them on any level, just being rational with their statements. What happened (from what I can read) was overconfidence and incompetence in understanding the move from test to production. They screwed up the test server enviroment (has happened here at my work before so I know what caused it) and it caused cascading issues in production that were far too numerous to fix on the fly. It needed a total rework which is what they've done now.

 

Whoever the people leading the Network Engineers were, they were not able to complete the task and more importantly: they didn't know they couldn't. Double incompetence.

 

In our matchmaking testing we were seeing results that ultimately weren’t reflective of the real retail environment, and our test sessions never got to the kind of scale where we’d see some of the looping issues I’ll describe below. So we genuinely didn’t know until the day it released, how bad the matchmaking in particular was going to get.

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That's not how testing environments work. It's explained right here:

 

"Fundamentally it was because we were testing it in an environment that we had set up incorrectly and with some (as we discovered later) faulty assumptions. And unlike some of our other normal testing cycles, we weren’t testing for gameplay balance and stuff that the original releases already contained so our test process was radically different, and we made mistakes in some of the scenarios we asked for."

 

You make it sound like they didn't get people connecting over the world to the test server. They 100% would have done that, probably hundreds if not thousands at a time for testing. But they were connecting to a dodgy test environment which, in their words, was set up incorrectly and with some (as we discovered later) faulty assumptions.

 

The game was functional for their test enviroment and they were confident moving it to production would work. They did not intend to do this:

 

 

Statements like this, whilst amusing, assume that there is a conspiracy to release shit games. 343 to the best of their abilities did think MCC was going to work.

 

I'm not defending them on any level, just being rational with their statements. What happened (from what I can read) was overconfidence and incompetence in understanding the move from test to production. They screwed up the test server enviroment (has happened here at my work before so I know what caused it) and it caused cascading issues in production that were far too numerous to fix on the fly. It needed a total rework which is what they've done now.

 

Whoever the people leading the Network Engineers were, they were not able to complete the task and more importantly: they didn't know they couldn't. Double incompetence.

 

In our matchmaking testing we were seeing results that ultimately weren’t reflective of the real retail environment, and our test sessions never got to the kind of scale where we’d see some of the looping issues I’ll describe below. So we genuinely didn’t know until the day it released, how bad the matchmaking in particular was going to get.

people had copies of the game 4 weeks in advance and the game didn't work. then major content creators got it 2 weeks in advance like saucy and cyren and it didn't work. so saying "we didn't know until the day it released" is just an outright lie. I remember there being huge problems getting a game going with IGN over online vs the 343 employees. 

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people had copies of the game 4 weeks in advance and the game didn't work. then major content creators got it 2 weeks in advance like saucy and cyren and it didn't work. so saying "we didn't know until the day it released" is just an outright lie. I remember there being huge problems getting a game going with IGN over online vs the 343 employees. 

 

4 weeks in advance is production though. They probably started seeing some issues flair up but assumed, wrongly, that it was the low population count having the issue.

 

The pre-release H2A tournaments should have told them everything really.

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We should be ashamed we even talk about them or actually come back to check out the next game. 

And I am. I really am...

 

It's mostly a way of apologizing for all the awful things fans say to them 365 days a year. Like, I'd want at least someone in my corner in their shoes. 343's community managers have the literal hardest job in the gaming world right now and they deserve to be treated like individuals and human beings, especially if they are new hires.

 

I guess through it all, you just hold out for the possibility that something good will happen by accident. The Halo Infinite trailer for instance. I think it speaks to what Halo is on a more intimate level than even Bungie's better trailers, and someone at 343 spearheaded that.

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Statements like this, whilst amusing, assume that there is a conspiracy to release shit games. 343 to the best of their abilities did think MCC was going to work.

No, they thought their broken as shit game would at least be able to get parties together and match games.

 

You couldn't even walk in a straight line in Halo 3. Like the most basic fundamental of any video game was broken on release. Halo 1 had a reticle that would push AWAY from people like pushing two magnets together. You couldn't even SHOOT people in Halo 1. They knew their game was fucked beyond belief, but they thought at least people could play the broken game together. They knew MCC didn't work long before release.

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