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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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Playing defensive and turtling in halo is effectively the same thing. Regarding later Halo's where the individual is less powerful all the attacking team needs to do is get 1 kill and the defense theoretically fall apart. Not to mention with 10 second respawns, if the other team slays your team once over and gets the next spawner or two it's a cap with potential to be a double cap. 

 

Dying in/near your base is bad juju

I disagree with the idea that the attacking team only has to get one kill then the defense falls apart. The idea behind turtling is that to even get that one kill, the attacker would have to put himself in a disadvantageous position, likely taking damage in the process and being easily cleaned up by another defender.

 

I’ll pose the same question to you, in a Halo without power ups or power weapons, what incentive does a team in the lead have to do anything but play defensively? Could they try to push to increase their lead? Sure but doing so could also cost them their current lead so why risk it? The answer is they risk moving from their advantageous positions so they can secure power items so at the very least the other team doesn’t acquire them and use that advantage against them. Without power items, gaining the lead then turtling becomes the dominant strategy which is shallow and boring. Do you disagree?

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@@TheIcePrincess

 

So once a team gets the lead, their best strategy is to turtle up and play defensively for the entire rest of the match. Do you think that makes for fun, interesting gameplay?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtling_(gameplay)

 

“Turtling is a gameplay strategy that emphasizes heavy defense, with little or no offense. Ostensibly, turtling minimizes risk to the turtling player while baiting opponents to take risks in trying to overcome the defenses. In practice, however, games are often designed to punish turtling through various game mechanics. Consequently, while turtling strategies are usually simple enough for novices to learn and are effective as such, they are easily defeated by experienced players who understand the game's methods to counter turtling.”

 

Without power ups or power weapons, what mechanics punish turtling in Halo?

I said they could be waiting to make another push, which involves gaining multiple kills. They're not turtling by those means, and I never said TO turtle because they're still playing offensively, and simply trying to slay enough to leave 3 dead for a good flag run. Laying down the grounds for a spawntrap (In this hypothetical) isn't a turtle. It's inherently offensive by nature, lol.

 

And what, we play 1v1 Oddball or 2v2 CTF? Literally the only weapon is the BR? Every map would need to be symmetrical to accommodate more objective game types.

 

Areas of the map would be completely ignored and players would only ever take the fastest route to the objective.

 

I'll be blunt, what you're proposing is stupid. We have DECADES of arena FPS games like UT and Quake - Games that require far more skill than Halo and if you think an OS makes a player OP, wait until you see what a player does with a Mega Health and a Super Shield.

 

You're basically implying Quake and UT have "shitass mechanics"... Kinda hard to take this seriously.

No, they wouldn't, because we have asymmetric OBJ maps already. Like Guardian. Ascension, Plaza, among others. I don't know what you're on about, lol. Not every map needs to be symmetric for an obj gametype, it just needs to be designed well.

 

And no, players aren't just going to take the fastest route, fam. The fastest route to the flag on Truth is a thrust slide bottom mid. It gets you from base to base in about 2 seconds when done right. It's also one of the easiest ways to get yourself killed, because you not only expose yourself to people in a power position ABOVE you, but you're zooming into the enemy's spawn. And having them above you. Consistently. Sitting basement is a good strategy to move spawns and to lay a distraction, but by no means a consistent or foolproof one, despite being the quickest way to get to the flag. Big wrongo there. I wanna be lowkey honest, how often to you play higher level Halo? To actually experience it, mind you. I'm not trying to haze you for a differing opinion, but I lowkey don't get how one can think "pushing the fastest route" would be the only viable strat in a game with minimal powerups/weapons, when the most recent Halo's pinnacle example of that is one that'll have your ass kicked if you're not actually careful. And thus isn't one people do constantly, despite being the quickest in objective practice. 

 

And no, I didn't once say or imply Quake/UT have poor mechanics, because I never once spoke on them. You're shoving words in my mouth. I've specifically been ranting on a game I know, not one I can't judge. At all. They may very well have dumbass mechanics, it's rare a game, regardless of how much skill it takes, won't have them. But I'm not talking about them, lmao. They may operate differently in practice given the franchises differ so much.

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@@TheIcePrincess

 

In a Halo without power ups or power weapons, what incentive does a team in the lead have to do anything but play defensively? Could they try to push to increase their lead? Sure but doing so could also cost them their current lead so why risk it? The answer is they risk moving from their advantageous positions so they can secure power items so at the very least the other team doesn’t acquire them and use that advantage against them. Without power items, gaining the lead then turtling becomes the dominant strategy which is shallow and boring. Do you disagree?

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@@TheIcePrincess

 

In a Halo without power ups or power weapons, what incentive does a team in the lead have to do anything but play defensively? Could they try to push to increase their lead? Sure but doing so could also cost them their current lead so why risk it? The answer is they risk moving from their advantageous positions so they can secure power items so at the very least the other team doesn’t acquire them and use that advantage against them. Without power items, gaining the lead then turtling becomes the dominant strategy which is shallow and boring. Do you disagree?

Again. The win. If they're in a 2-0, there isn't really much risk to them. If you're talking about a 2-2 game, then yeah, people are gonna slow the fuck down, but they do that regardless of powerups/weapons being around. We see it in Halo 5, where power weapons are sometimes the most obnoxious. I can think of close Slayer games where this shit happens in spite of teams possessing the one map sniper. Or even an OS. And this is at a pro level. Power weapons or not, it's going to happen, and personally, I'd rather have it happen and maybe be broken without cheeseball shit. Which can be fixed by making you, the user, powerful. 

 

This hinges on the idea every game devolves into a turtle, which just isn't how it's going to go, lol. And isn't just exclusive to this idea of powerup/power weapon-less Halo.

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im late to this convo and theres too many walls of text.

 

 

look no further than halo 3 on the pit.

 

if custom didn't spawn every 2minutes or rockets every 3, we'd get 5-4 games at the end of 15minutes. heck we get them even with them because rockets can be dirtied and custom doesnt grant u os if you get shot before u get it. if custom was a 3 layer OS and came up every minute, you would not ever have 5-4 games. edit: it's not a cheeseball way to win lol. both teams know OS is there. both teams fight for it. The team that loses is the worse team. that's as un-cheesy as it gets. 

 

powerups/weapons make games dynamic. halo is brain dead without it. 

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Again. The win. If they're in a 2-0, there isn't really much risk to them. If you're talking about a 2-2 game, then yeah, people are gonna slow the fuck down, but they do that regardless of powerups/weapons being around. We see it in Halo 5, where power weapons are sometimes the most obnoxious. I can think of close Slayer games where this shit happens in spite of teams possessing the one map sniper. Or even an OS. And this is at a pro level. Power weapons or not, it's going to happen, and personally, I'd rather have it happen and maybe be broken without cheeseball shit. Which can be fixed by making you, the user, powerful. 

 

This hinges on the idea every game devolves into a turtle, which just isn't how it's going to go, lol. And isn't just exclusive to this idea of powerup/power weapon-less Halo.

Why would a team risk losing their lead to secure another capture when they could just play defensively and run the clock out?

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~snip~

 

So glad the non-NA regions are back to square one and are having to request search parameters constantly, even after we complaining and asked and pleaded for them in Halo 5 because of the shit search times.

 

Shoutout to hating video-game subreddits. Any vaguely competitive player in Siege hates r/Rainbow6 for the same reason we hate r/Halo. its the only place developers stay in communication with fans regularly, but its also an echo-chamber of spoons for trousers ******** gameplay suggestions, average art and mediocre game clips spamming the front page,

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Why would a team risk losing their lead to secure another capture when they could just play defensively and run the clock out?

If they're in a hypothetical 2-0, what is the real risk to losing their lead, lol. Again, this is all hypothetical, you're acting like a 2-0 on the line could be a loss if stuff's mucked up, but if you're up in a 2-0 in my world, you have the world in your hand.

 

They could very well play defensively. Or they could keep slaying because keeping up momentum only has everything to gain you, whereas turtling actually puts everything up on the line by giving up every power position on the map.

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I disagree with the idea that the attacking team only has to get one kill then the defense falls apart. The idea behind turtling is that to even get that one kill, the attacker would have to put himself in a disadvantageous position, likely taking damage in the process and being easily cleaned up by another defender.

 

I’ll pose the same question to you, in a Halo without power ups or power weapons, what incentive does a team in the lead have to do anything but play defensively? Could they try to push to increase their lead? Sure but doing so could also cost them their current lead so why risk it? The answer is they risk moving from their advantageous positions so they can secure power items so at the very least the other team doesn’t acquire them and use that advantage against them. Without power items, gaining the lead then turtling becomes the dominant strategy which is shallow and boring. Do you disagree?

Name me one competitively played CTF map where you turtle effectively in Halo. 

 

A few things. 

 

1. No team can force 100% advantageous fights 100% of the time

2. Players still win gunfights in disadvantageous situations

3. If your CTF map is made in a way where this is possible the map is garbage

4. Team shot, bait and switch, pre-nading, flanking, etc. are being ignored in this hypothetical. 

 

I do think that power weapons/ups make the game more interesting and force more flow. Maps without those said things are generally smaller (midship, warlock, amplified). The issue is ease of use, or risk vs reward. The Halo 5 sniper for example is much to easy to use. The Halo CE sniper, or Halo 3 sniper are much better. Camo is damn near impossible to see in Halo 5, and I like camo as a power up. The only camo I think doesn't need much tweaking is the CE camo because even with first shot someone can outshoot you regularly. Overshield is a 1v1 winner in most Halo games, but that's why you need something that can contend it without being a power weapon. Such as, I don't know the CE pistol. You still have to mag dump to kill the OS guy but if you land your shots you can finish off the OS player with a beatdown or two. 

 

tl;dr

Turtling is dumb and won't be effective on good maps. Power weapons and ups need to be tweaked.

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So glad the non-NA regions are back to square one and are having to request search parameters constantly, even after we complaining and asked and pleaded for them in Halo 5 because of the shit search times.

 

Shoutout to hating video-game subreddits. Any vaguely competitive player in Siege hates r/Rainbow6 for the same reason we hate r/Halo. its the only place developers stay in communication with fans regularly, but its also an echo-chamber of spoons for trousers ******** gameplay suggestions, average art and mediocre game clips spamming the front page,

eh. the csgo and lol tournament threads are hype and get thousands of comments

 

/halo doesn't even have tournament threads lmao and for the MAJOR events they get 6 posts. 

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Why would a team risk losing their lead to secure another capture when they could just play defensively and run the clock out?

Alright this is getting ridiculous. Look in a game like halo 5 for example, collapsing on spawns is key to winning slayers. Forcing split spawns and just flying at defenseless spawners is how you play. Power weapons or not ANY high level team is going to push when they have numbers advantage a vast majority of the time. Because pressing your advantage is how you win. If a team gets a pick in H5 you immediately see the entire team flood in, the collapse on them before they have time to move again. Power weapons or not. And yes there are maps that don't play well without power weapons. Citing The Pit and Adrift is just picking maps that suck dick in the first place. Midship is another example. Small/Medium sized maps are key to slayer.

 

Hell we could even say, again, that as a gametype slayer I the weakest in the rotation. And if it's just NOT POSSIBLE to play it without power weapons then fuvk it. Bye bye slayer. Every other obj mode already forces movement and doesn't require extra incentive. And obj modes also put the team with the obj at a disadvantage. Flag guy has limited mobility, hill guy is in a nuke zone, oddball is a 3v4. Movement is gonna happen as long as the map is not ass for it.

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standoff is played competitively in btb. if there was no warthog, rockets, or bubble shields or drainers, it would be impossible to cap the flag. sure u can make maps like onslaught, but those maps are so stripped down there is nothing left. the meta on onslaught hasnt changed since day 1 and every1 goes in with the same plan. i dont think rockets would save the map or something; it's just you can make good comp maps that rely on power weapons while no power weapons/ups on maps will cause the 7 maps you pick for your tournament to all just play the same if they're "good" or play like shit if they're "bad"

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I wanna be lowkey honest, how often to you play higher level Halo? To actually experience it, mind you.

 

I mean, I played competitive Halo for about a decade starting with Halo 1 and have competed in Halo 2 on an international level, so you could say I've got a pretty good idea on how the game plays competitively I guess.

Halo 1

  • 1st – Games Wizards Halo 2 midnight release tournament (4v4 2004)

Halo 2

  • 2nd – Microsoft Tsunami charity tournament (4v4 2005)
  • 2nd – BigPond Halo 2 tournament (4v4 2005)
  • 2nd – WCG NSW qualifier (2v2 2005)
  • 1st – WCG ACT state qualifier (2v2 2005)
  • 1st – WCG New Zealand National Finals (2v2 2005)
  • 1st – SD10 Game On tournament (4v4 2005)

Halo 3

  • 3rd – WCG NSW qualifier (4v4 2008)
  • 3rd – WCG QLD qualifier (4v4 2008)

That's just all major tournaments I placed top 3 in, not counting any local LAN's or online tournaments.

 

Obviously I no longer compete now with a young family, but I still play against some top Aussie players when I get a chance.

 

And no, I didn't once say or imply Quake/UT have poor mechanics, because I never once spoke on them. You're shoving words in my mouth

 

Well actually you kinda did since they're the exact same mechanics. What games do you think influenced Halo?

 

The overshield is pretty much just a copy/paste of the Mega Health in Quake. Both powerups give you a temporary HP boost that fade away over time. Both power ups spawn at a set position an the map and both power ups are on spawn times roughly 1-2 minutes long. Therefore, if you say power ups in Halo - an arena FPS are a shitty mechanic, than by extension you're saying power ups in Quake - an arena FPS, are also a shitty mechanic.

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I’ve made my arguments for why maps play better with items that incentivize map movement. Let me hear some arguments for how gameplay would benefit from a lack of items that promote map movement.

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I mean, I played competitive Halo for about a decade starting with Halo 1 and have competed in Halo 2 on an international level, so you could say I've got a pretty good idea on how the game plays competitively I guess.

-ListSnip-

That's just all major tournaments I competed in, not counting any local LAN's or online tournaments.

 

Obviously I no longer compete now with a young family, but I still play against some top Aussie players when I get a chance.

 

Well actually you kinda did since they're the exact same mechanics. What games do you think influenced Halo?

 

The overshield is pretty much just a copy/paste of the Mega Health in Quake. Both powerups give you a temporary HP boost that fade away over time. Both power ups spawn at a set position an the map and both power ups are on spawn times roughly 1-2 minutes long. Therefore, if you say power ups in Halo - an arena FPS are a shitty mechanic, than by extension you're saying power ups in Quake - an arena FPS, are also a shitty mechanic.

So... nothing recent, and tournaments that're seemingly off the charts to the point where I cannot find a reference to them barring your blog. Hmmkay, then. Just baffling you've done a lot, yet you say something so.... Wrong... Not even to mock, again, but whew. The original point laid on map movement, and traversing the quickest area possible, and how this would be the only viable strat without power weapons/ups. How do you counter this when current Halo outright disproves this concept?

 

And nah, until I play the games and can see they're seemingly a 1:1 in how they operate, I'm not making a claim about them. Given your description of how power weaponless/upless Halo would work, I simply cannot be anything but skeptical to the idea they're identical in these other games which are different. 

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So... nothing recent, and tournaments that're seemingly off the charts to the point where I cannot find a reference to them barring your blog.

 

LMFAO

 

Yes, the World Cyber Games was off the charts... An international tournament with qualifiers all around the world that was won by Ogre 1 and Ogre 2...

 

I'm sorry, who the hell are YOU to tell my my achievements are worth nothing again? Wanna list your LAN tournament placings for us all to mock?

 

Holy fuck. On a competitive Halo forum I'm being told by someone that LAN tournaments in Australia and competing in the WCG grand finals in Singapore doesn't mean anything. I'm honestly lost for words.

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LMFAO

 

Yes, the World Cyber Games was off the charts... An international tournament with qualifiers all around the world that was won by Ogre 1 and Ogre 2...

 

I'm sorry, who the hell are YOU to tell my my achievements are worth nothing again? Wanna list your LAN tournament placings for us all to mock?

 

Holy fuck. On a competitive Halo forum I'm being told by someone that LAN tournaments in Australia and competing in the WCG grand finals in Singapore doesn't mean anything. I'm honestly lost for words.

I said I couldn't find references to them, not that they didn't mean anything, or weren't worth noting. If you'd have read past that, you'd have seen I said...

 

 Just baffling you've done a lot, yet you say something so.... Wrong... Not even to mock, again, but whew. 

I didn't mock, or degrade you. I stated a fact of time (Nothing recent), and a fact that quick google searches led me to your site first and foremost over an actual listing somewhere comprehensive. Where I could find specific statistics for anything in a quick manner like other searches I've done for these things. And I even spoke on how you did a lot, which is where I get fucking befuddled that you could be so off on a topic pertaining to movement in a game.

 

I personally think you need to chill. Quite a bit. I personally don't give a shit enough (Nor is it really in my character) to try and attack your accomplishments. 

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LMFAO

 

Yes, the World Cyber Games was off the charts... An international tournament with qualifiers all around the world that was won by Ogre 1 and Ogre 2...

 

I'm sorry, who the hell are YOU to tell my my achievements are worth nothing again? Wanna list your LAN tournament placings for us all to mock?

 

Holy fuck. On a competitive Halo forum I'm being told by someone that LAN tournaments in Australia and competing in the WCG grand finals in Singapore doesn't mean anything. I'm honestly lost for words.

I recently heard a radio interview with Dean Lewis (the musician) where he spoke about competing in the WCG in Singapore.

 

I remembered you competed in that tourney (I think I heard about it during the ACL days) so it was a weird collision of worlds.

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I said I couldn't find references to them, not that they didn't mean anything, or weren't worth noting. If you'd have read past that, you'd have seen I said...

 

I didn't mock, or degrade you. I stated a fact of time (Nothing recent), and a fact that quick google searches led me to your site first and foremost over an actual listing somewhere comprehensive. Where I could find specific statistics for anything in a quick manner like other searches I've done for these things. And I even spoke on how you did a lot, which is where I get fucking befuddled that you could be so off on a topic pertaining to movement in a game.

 

I personally think you need to chill. Quite a bit. I personally don't give a shit enough (Nor is it really in my character) to try and attack your accomplishments. 

 

Read the description in this video. Its pretty well documented in the FOURvFOUR documentary covering the history of competitive Halo in New Zealand. 

 

On a Topic relevant to Halo MCC, playlists. Here's my suggestion to condense the playlist into something that makes more sense and is more playable for everyone.

 

7 Permanent Playlists, 1 Rotational.

3 Ranked playlists, 4 Social Playlists.

Ranked

  1. Halo CE (2v2)

  2. Halo 2 Hardcore (4v4)

  3. Halo 3 Hardcore (4v4)

Social

  1. Halo 4 Arena (4v4)

  2. Halo 3 BTB (8v8)

  3. Cross-game BTB [CE/2/2A/4] (8v8)

  4. Social Slayer [CE/2/2A/3/4] (8v8)

Rotational [CG = Cross game]

  1. CG Snipers/CG Action Sack etc etc

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@@Pyroteq

 

I agree that burst weapons don’t belong in SWAT. I disagree that it shouldn’t be a playlist because it has consistently been the third most popular playlist in past Halo games, behind BTB and TS.

Why not give people a customs browser with dedis so it can be popular in there, instead of drawing people from the five hundred matchmaking lists?

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The connection in MCC is just steadily getting worse. Played CE 4v4s today and I felt like I was using a nerf maverick. Crazy that peer to peer feels better. 

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Just played a kid who got this on the enemy team, led his team in kills, went 16/6. He got a snipe and sword kill too, rounding out his kill total to 10 power weapon kills, and 4 BR kills, with a nade and a melee making up the two others. This fucking kid only had a fourth of his kills being the game's fucking utility. In a game where the utility actually works. H2A. This kid didn't get into ANY actual gunfights, and won the game like this. And if you remove his power weapon kills, only went 6/6. You can't actually tell me this shit is okay, and how Halo should work.
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