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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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And this will forever confuse me.

Uhh because when it's not vehicle spam city it's actually fun? Because it's a different experience on different maps than HCS? Because I don't only want to play one specific way each time I play? Come on now.

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Uhh because when it's not vehicle spam city it's actually fun? Because it's a different experience on different maps than HCS? Because I don't only want to play one specific way each time I play? Come on now.

You’re intolerant of vehicles as an idea, but want to talk about BTB. They’re intertwined, dude. It’s part of it. I mean, I like the maps with fewer vehicles too, but it sounds ridiculous to campaign for a non-vehicle BTB. Maybe it’d make for a fun rotational playlist, but for the most part it sounds like complaining about fast kill times in SWAT or how you can’t shoot people in Grifball. It’s just part of it, and complaining about it makes it seem like you just chose the wrong playlist.

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And this will forever confuse me.

 

Wait. Is there another arena-ish mode with larger teams and maps that ISN'T ruined by vehicle spam? Obviously, that would be preferable.

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Wait. Is there another arena-ish mode with larger teams and maps that ISN'T ruined by vehicle spam? Obviously, that would be preferable.

Hmm yeah it’s like how I want to play 5v5, but it’s just this darn random starting weapon thing that bugs me. If only Fiesta didn’t have random starting weapons...

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Hmm yeah it’s like how I want to play 5v5, but it’s just this darn random starting weapon thing that bugs me. If only Fiesta didn’t have random starting weapons...

 

Yeah, it's like how I want to play Halo, but it's just this darn SMG starts thing that bugs me. Absurd, I know.

 

So, because we have an established notion of what "BTB" is that has pretty much always been shit, suggestions to improve it are just ridiculous? I'm trying to grasp the logic here. So, being horrible garbage is just such a core element of the BTB experience that any deviation from that formula (for 8v8 with bigger maps) is just silly? There can only be one 8v8 playlist and it has to be a vehicle-dominated, god-awful mess where silver-tier players can go 50-2 in a Banshee?

 

Just making sure we're on the same page here.

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There's a huge difference between vehicle spam and balance lmao. H3 standoff had 2 warthogs. H5 Deadlock has 2 warthogs, 2 SWORD ghosts, and used to have 2 wasps. Hmm something seems off.

 

Vehicles with guns should always require 2 people to operate. And there should be 1 or 2 at MOST. Transport vehicles should make up the rest. But nah maps need dual banshees and dual tanks cuz it's all the same.

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There's a huge difference between vehicle spam and balance lmao. H3 standoff had 2 warthogs. H5 Deadlock has 2 warthogs, 2 SWORD ghosts, and used to have 2 wasps. Hmm something seems off.

 

Vehicles with guns should always require 2 people to operate. And there should be 1 or 2 at MOST. Transport vehicles should make up the rest. But nah maps need dual banshees and dual tanks cuz it's all the same.

 

I assume that by "transport vehicles," you mean SICK GUNGEESE.

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Yeah, it's like how I want to play Halo, but it's just this darn SMG starts thing that bugs me. Absurd, I know.

 

So, because we have an established notion of what "BTB" is that has pretty much always been shit, suggestions to improve it are just ridiculous? I'm trying to grasp the logic here. So, being horrible garbage is just such a core element of the BTB experience that any deviation from that formula (for 8v8 with bigger maps) is just silly? There can only be one 8v8 playlist and it has to be a vehicle-dominated, god-awful mess where silver-tier players can go 50-2 in a Banshee?

 

Just making sure we're on the same page here.

If your proposition is “remove all vehicles from BTB”, then don’t be surprised at the reaction you get. And if ideas on how to improve vehicles is actually what you’re after, then I would direct you to the last 3 pages. Please feel free to make your own. But we both know that’s not what you’re after.

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There's a huge difference between vehicle spam and balance lmao. H3 standoff had 2 warthogs. H5 Deadlock has 2 warthogs, 2 SWORD ghosts, and used to have 2 wasps. Hmm something seems off.

 

Vehicles with guns should always require 2 people to operate. And there should be 1 or 2 at MOST. Transport vehicles should make up the rest. But nah maps need dual banshees and dual tanks cuz it's all the same.

This is the type of post I’ve been trying to get out of you on this subject for a while. An actual idea and proposition. Thank you.

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I don't see why there shouldn't be some BTB maps without vehicles. Just like how not every 4v4 map rates a Sniper/Rockets etc I think that there's space for a variety of vehicular and vehicle-free experiences in an 8v8 setting.

 

Also, Warzone vehicle variants in BTB are a serious balancing mistake. But that's a battle I've fought and lost for a while now when I was involved in contributing to the playlist updates (side note: if anyone enjoys Traffic Jam, that's my alternate weapon layout for it - I think it does a pretty good job of giving the vehicles map presence whilst allowing strong players to wreak havoc without needing to use them at all). *shrug*

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If your proposition is “remove all vehicles from BTB”, then don’t be surprised at the reaction you get. And if ideas on how to improve vehicles is actually what you’re after, then I would direct you to the last 3 pages. Please feel free to make your own. But we both know that’s not what you’re after.

 

I'm fully aware of the many excuses people have for overpowered, low effort garbage that makes them feel cool in Halo games. Change is hard, I know. It's a consistent trend.

 

I pretty much agree with what Beast said, though. If you want to talk about the real problem vehicles (scorpion, wraith, banshee, ghost, gauss hog, mantis, etc) that dominate maps, then I would suggest that they fundamentally require a different kind of game to be much more than a low effort power fantasy for kids who normally go double negative on foot. The biggest problem is that Halo vehicles are and always have been trivially easy to use.

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And I would prefer to drop the hostile, sarcastic, words in your mouth tone and have a fun discussion. I did it too, I know. But I’d rather not going forward.

 

Fair enough.

 

The fundamental problem I have with vehicle "counters" is that it is almost always a matter of rock-paper-scissors, which is something widely acknowledged to suck ass anywhere else in Halo. "Control that splaser, so you don't get fucked on by that tank!" Best case scenario, you still have to focus fire the shit out of ONE dude in his vehicle to take him down, while the rest of his team is presumably still a problem.

 

This is a stark contrast to power items, which can ruin maps and game-types as well, but it's still just ONE advantage. You're still dealing with a normal player in most other respects (god-awful REQ weapons with speed boost and other bullshit aside). A dude with a rocket launcher, still moves the same speed, still dies in the same number of hits, etc. On top of that, a lot of infantry power items are actually less effective on BTB maps overall, as a result of the size (except the sniper, obviously). Harder to close the distance with rockets, easy to melt an OS player walking across an open space, takes longer to get a decent flank with camo, etc.

 

Is there a good balance between a Halo tank that is "good enough" to justify getting in, but not so obnoxious that it takes over the entire map? We have yet to see it. A big part of the issue is that infantry-vehicle interactions in Halo have always been pretty simplistic and shallow. Battlefield this is not.

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Ce vehicle balance was alright?

 

They were powerful but also pretty easy to counter with just your spawn weapons.  No reason they can't just update that concept, which is kind of what Smartan hinted at.

 

Scorpion:  Bring back the exposed driver.  Scorpion becomes complete glass-cannon instead of unstoppable death machine.

Banshee:  Remove fuel rod.  Replace front metal plate with very weak energy barrier.  Operator is forced to head straight at targets but is left exposed in process.

Ghost:  Bullets penetrate front metal and directly damage operator with only slight reduction in damage taken.

Wraith:  The rear end vent now causes it to explode with only a few shots.  No mounted front turret.  Sniper Rifle directly pierces front, killing driver with ease.

Mantis:  Remove it.  At the very least remove the stupid ground-stomp, it shouldn't have an easy tool to deal with it's primary counter (mounting).  The user should be punished for bad positioning.

Grenades:  More reliable placement in general, more knockback against ground vehicles.

Mounted Turrets:  More of these on the map so infantry has safer area of operation.

 

I'm sure there's more you could do and that might not be entirely sufficient but it's a good starting point.

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Invasion (I count 40 bajillion times I've brought it up now) arguably does a good job at balancing vehicles because it lets you pick different weapons on spawn. By the end of the match you had stuff like the grenade launcher. That was one of the best anti vehicle guns halo ever had.

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@@TheIcePrincess, if the fun of vehicles isn’t apparent to you, I don’t think any explanation will help. Do you like vehicles in Battlefield?

 

That sounded dickish. What I mean is if you don’t see their value, I don’t think there’s anything anyone can say to make you feel differently. Id be happy to explain what I like about them, but I want to know if you dislike vehicles in FPS in general, or just the way Halo does it.

I do, but I just don't use them. Battlefield 4 got them borderline perfected, but how Halo does them is just broken. More so in not allowing you to do anything against them off spawn. And it's been like this for 14 years, barring Halo 4. Doubt it's changing anytime soon. And it's not even just how you're able to do something off spawn in Battlefield, it's how vehicles are outright hard to use in most cases. Controlling any chopper, even one with mounted weapons is one of the hardest experiences, but it's fun when you're actually good at it. Because it takes skill. It takes next to no skill at all to pilot any of Halo's vehicles, bar the Falcon, which on its own doesn't even feel like it was intentionally designed to be hard, but just happened to be, given the monster that thing is in campaign.

 

 

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Jets were dumb in battlefield.

jets were a mistake, basically another form of recon kids who can play in their own corner of the map

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Ce vehicle balance was alright?

 

They were powerful but also pretty easy to counter with just your spawn weapons.  No reason they can't just update that concept, which is kind of what Smartan hinted at.

 

Scorpion:  Bring back the exposed driver.  Scorpion becomes complete glass-cannon instead of unstoppable death machine.

Banshee:  Remove fuel rod.  Replace front metal plate with very weak energy barrier.  Operator is forced to head straight at targets but is left exposed in process.

Ghost:  Bullets penetrate front metal and directly damage operator with only slight reduction in damage taken.

Wraith:  The rear end vent now causes it to explode with only a few shots.  No mounted front turret.  Sniper Rifle directly pierces front, killing driver with ease.

Mantis:  Remove it.  At the very least remove the stupid ground-stomp, it shouldn't have an easy tool to deal with it's primary counter (mounting).  The user should be punished for bad positioning.

Grenades:  More reliable placement in general, more knockback against ground vehicles.

Mounted Turrets:  More of these on the map so infantry has safer area of operation.

 

I'm sure there's more you could do and that might not be entirely sufficient but it's a good starting point.

 

Adding a separate health bar for vehicles was a mistake.

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What if you could ground vehicles first? Like shoot a wheel off or a set of tredds and the thing would either move shittily or not at all.

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If your proposition is “remove all vehicles from BTB”, then don’t be surprised at the reaction you get.

And it wouldn't be a good one.

 

I could see a minimalist approach work in H6 if they did something like Boulevard and Port Authority for example which only have one Warthog and Ghost, but I think no vehicles at all for multiple maps would be a hard sell. The only way that would probably be feasible is if they made two playlists with one being infantry focused and the other being a heavies variant.  

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We’re a lot closer to being on the same page than it’s being made out to be. I don’t like shit like Dispelled and launch version of Deadlock either. It’s too much for 8v8. I’ve never liked a banshee variant in Halo, ever. The wasp sucks. The Mantis is oppressive. Vehicles should be used sparingly to have the right effect, but they also need to be good enough to be worth controlling. I think we agree that most maps have too many vehicles. Most of my favorite maps have a minimal vehicle presence.

 

What I don’t agree with, is that vehicles can’t be a fun focal point of the game. I don’t agree they’re uncounterable (unless your team sucks). I don’t agree that any vehicle with a gun should be a 2 man vehicle. They just need to balance Health/Mobility/Firepower/Availability/Counters, and unfortunately most vehicles in Halo’s history have not had a good balance there.

 

It mostly I don’t agree that they CANT be good. I know they can be good. That’s why I want to talk about it. What, specifically, would make them better?

 

And I would prefer to drop the hostile, sarcastic, words in your mouth tone and have a fun discussion. I did it too, I know. But I’d rather not going forward.

A nice overview of your stance. I really don't think think that people always disagree as much as it seems at times, either. Clarification can be a life-saver.

 

And yeah... being a bit guilty as well, it would certainly be nice to not have a potentially nice discussion be ruined. Good on you for calling it out before it gets ridiculous.

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What if we approached vehicles like we approach powerups? Powerful items that are contested and if you win them it gives you an edge that goes away after a fixed amount of time/ammo count.

 

Like what if there was a fuel/ammo limit on vehicles? Let's say you could only get 100 plasma shots for the Ghost and maybe enough fuel for the vehicle to operate for a minute, and the fuel/ammo spawns in central contestable locations so they are fought over like powerups are? And then you actually have to survive getting to the vehicle to use the ammo/fuel you picked up, and the enemy can pick it up off your dead body if you die.

 

This idea could use some more fleshing out obviously but just a thought.

 

The vehicles should still be counterable with spawn weapons as well though so you're not just completely unstoppable while using it.

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Fair enough.

 

The fundamental problem I have with vehicle "counters" is that it is almost always a matter of rock-paper-scissors, which is something widely acknowledged to suck ass anywhere else in Halo. "Control that splaser, so you don't get fucked on by that tank!" Best case scenario, you still have to focus fire the shit out of ONE dude in his vehicle to take him down, while the rest of his team is presumably still a problem.

 

This is a stark contrast to power items, which can ruin maps and game-types as well, but it's still just ONE advantage. You're still dealing with a normal player in most other respects (god-awful REQ weapons with speed boost and other bullshit aside). A dude with a rocket launcher, still moves the same speed, still dies in the same number of hits, etc. On top of that, a lot of infantry power items are actually less effective on BTB maps overall, as a result of the size (except the sniper, obviously). Harder to close the distance with rockets, easy to melt an OS player walking across an open space, takes longer to get a decent flank with camo, etc.

 

Is there a good balance between a Halo tank that is "good enough" to justify getting in, but not so obnoxious that it takes over the entire map? We have yet to see it. A big part of the issue is that infantry-vehicle interactions in Halo have always been pretty simplistic and shallow. Battlefield this is not.

I don't like H3's emphasis on laser control. In fact, I don't like the laser at all. Because it's essentially a super weapon when it comes to vehicles, the only way it could be fun is if it came with like one or two shots, and was intended to be the counter to a super vehicle. But even then, gameplay would suck when the laser wasn't in play, or when the controlling team has it. It's far better to just have more moderately powered vehicles so that the idea of a the laser isn't even necessary. (However, this idea could absolutely work in a round based game)

 

I like that H3 had several available counters to vehicles, but because they were all pretty short ranged or easily dodged, the vehicles essentially had impunity if the the operator's team had map control and the operator kept his distance. He literally had nothing to fear, and that's stupid. That's why I like the Reach/H4/H5 system where a team can do meaningful damage off spawn, at any range. It alleviates the stress of needing to focus fire that much damage on one guy, because it's okay to do it in bursts. We can debate the health pool in those games all day, but i love the idea of 2 or 3 guys (or 1 guy with a great angle and a full magazine) being able to do permanent, meaningful damage by catching a vehicle operator in the wrong spot at the wrong time. I don't like how some games have this "all or nothing" damage model for the vehicles, because that leads to the type of consequence-free behavior from vehicles that we both hate. I think this can be blended with Smartan's idea of exposing weak spots, so that the operator doesn't have to worry about dying to a stray AR bullet, kind of like how infantry need the headshot to finish efficiently. The vehicle weak spots just become the "headshot". Then you can get into some weapons being better at removing armor and some weapons being better at delivering the killing blow, and you get fun dynamics in the sandbox.  And I guess this is as good a spot as any to bring up the one idea of @@Boyo's that I actually thought was legitimately great, and that's the sentinel beam heating up vehicles to make them more prone to damage from other sources, and also "cooking" the operator over time, where if he boiled to death in the vehicle and it cooled down afterwards, the other team would inherit his vehicle at full health.

 

I'm with you about the powerup effectiveness in BTB. I asked the question in the H5 thread the other day how people felt about the strength of the OS scaling up as the player count increases. I think it'd be a good idea. And if we're using a 2 minute camo, I think a 1 minute duration in BTB would be appropriate to accommodate for the larger map sizes. It's not like you'd be able to chain camos together, so I don't see it being that big of a problem.

 

As for vehicle effectiveness, as long as the dev is balancing Health/Mobility/Firepower, it shouldn't be that hard. They can have 2, but they need to be lacking in the 3rd. A lot of vehicles in Halo history have screwed this up. Honestly I feel like the tanks are in a decent place, particularly the Wraith. I think the H5 Wraith might be the best in the series in all honesty. I've used ground vehicles a lot because I was going for the commendation for Achilles a while back, and I got pretty good with all of them. The Wraith is comfortable to use in that it doesn't feel like shit to move in, and its trajectory and reticle is fairly intuitive. It can defend itself against mindless zombie-like boarding attempts with it's boost. It's legitimately fun to use because it's clearly useful, it's intuitive, but it's also vulnerable. Coming from someone that rushes Wraith on the opening on every map it spawns on, it is not without its vulnerabilities. It's slow as fuck, so if someone catches me out in the open after I boost and decide to dump a mag into me from a distance, I can't effectively return fire and it's gonna take me a while to get to cover. That's permanent damage. That's what I like about this damage model. That guy seized an opportunity and deserves that permanent progress towards my death. But I also have to worry about camo guy boarding me and try to have eyes on it when it spawns. I have to worry about regular boards, plasma pistols, hydras, power weapons, stickies, splinters, prolonged exposure to rifle fire, and other vehicles. I know that I'm a focal point of the game and I need to play accordingly. It may not be super aim intensive, but it's hardly brainless.

 

The Scorpion is similar. Yeah it's cheesier than the Wraith, but it's also severely lacking in mobility. It's extremely vulnerable to its intended counters. I'm not convinced it's too strong. Maybe too numerous, as I'd prefer a neutral Scorpion to having two of them, but not too strong. At the most a rate of fire nerf and a projectile speed nerf are all it would need. 343 also does this thing which i thought was kind of clever, where your turret needs to catch up to your crosshair, making twitch shots unviable. Maybe that could become a little more pronounced. I use Scorpions a lot, and if the enemy is aware of me, it's not exactly a walk in the park. The attempts to board, stick, EMP or rocket me are constant once they know about me, and you get next to no mobility so your positioning needs to be perfect or your team needs to really have your back.

 

I could bitch about Halo's air vehicles all day, especially Halo 5's, but I think due to the strength and availability of the all the counters, H5's default tank variants are some of the best they've ever been in the series.  @@TheIcePrincess, I've lanned Blood Gulch CTF with decent players, and the tanks are useless unless you turn them around and shoot backwards. They routinely die to a competent pistol user if they don't. Once we figured out that Scorpions in H1 are essentially stationary artillery, they became a little more effective, but let's not pretend they were viable without resorting to that. Most people don't know that because most people never played H1 BTB against semi-competent players.

 

Ce vehicle balance was alright?

 

They were powerful but also pretty easy to counter with just your spawn weapons.  No reason they can't just update that concept, which is kind of what Smartan hinted at.

 

Scorpion:  Bring back the exposed driver.  Scorpion becomes complete glass-cannon instead of unstoppable death machine.

Banshee:  Remove fuel rod.  Replace front metal plate with very weak energy barrier.  Operator is forced to head straight at targets but is left exposed in process.

Ghost:  Bullets penetrate front metal and directly damage operator with only slight reduction in damage taken.

Wraith:  The rear end vent now causes it to explode with only a few shots.  No mounted front turret.  Sniper Rifle directly pierces front, killing driver with ease.

Mantis:  Remove it.  At the very least remove the stupid ground-stomp, it shouldn't have an easy tool to deal with it's primary counter (mounting).  The user should be punished for bad positioning.

Grenades:  More reliable placement in general, more knockback against ground vehicles.

Mounted Turrets:  More of these on the map so infantry has safer area of operation.

 

I'm sure there's more you could do and that might not be entirely sufficient but it's a good starting point.

H1 nailed the grenade vs vehicle dynamic, and pistol effectiveness against the vehicle itself. But the warthog turret was way too weak to be viable. The H1 gunner had all the same problems as the H5 gunner, but worse. He just got melted if the other team was remotely competent. H1 warthog need both a stronger turret and a less exposed gunner to be worth using as a killing tool in a legit game.

 

Scorpion: Again, the exposed driver made the vehicle a joke against non-noobs. He just gets melted instantly. You literally had to turn your back to the enemy and spin the turret 180 to avoid it, making the tank a stationary artillery vehicle because your turret would rotate to the front if you moved. Glass cannon should be applied to something that's fast imo.

Banshee: THIS should be the glass cannon. Make it fast and make it deadly, but make it weak as fuck. I personally despise the flip mechanic. I think this thing should just control like the jets in Battlefield. Let the user barrel roll and flip on their own.

Ghost: Your suggestion would make this thing bad at its intended purpose. It's supposed to be an initiator. It supposed to force engagements and absorb damage. Its weakness should be firepower. Make it quick and let it absorb frontal damage since that's what it's designed to be good at, but don't make it kill so quick. Honestly H5's standard ghost is almost perfect, if its shots did less damage. If you've ever played SMITE, the Ghost is like playing a Guardian with decent mobility.

Wraith: I think this is the best designed vehicle in the game. The sniper already pops the hatch after a couple shots, which is a bargain given how easy it is to do. The frontal turret is a non factor that only even gets used in noob games. I've never gotten a wheelman from that thing, ever, and I Wraith a lot. As for the vent in the back, absolutely. I think it should be more obvious that that's the weak spot. In fact, I'd love to see a codex or something in the menu that tells players where the weak spots are on all the vehicles.

Mantis: Again, Beyond Company ground vehicle guy here. I rush Mantis on Fracture and use it a lot in Warzone (when I can tolerate playing it). The stomp is hardly the problem, especially in H5. It only affects BAD boarding attempts by noobs that sprint at you from the front across open ground. Those kids deserve to die. The problem with the mantis is its health/firepower ratio. It either needs to lose the shield or lose its missiles. Hell, just make it two different variants. One for tanking and one for DPS. Use the tanking one on maps like Fracture, and use the DPS one on maps with air vehicles.

Grenades: The H1/H3 style of flipping vehicles with frags NEEDS to come back. That's one of the core things players should have at their disposal off spawn, and it's just fun as fuck.

Mounted Turrets: I'm kind of indifferent about these. I guess they have decent risk/reward and can be useful in certain situations. I just so rarely see them used effectively.

 

I'll just add a bonus one.  I don't hate the idea of the Wasp, I just think it's done really poorly. It's the air variant of the Mantis. It shouldn't get tankiness AND firepower. Split it into two variants. One with a shield and that cool projectile chaingun from the Oni version, and one with no shield but it gets missiles.

 

 

Okay, that's the super nerdy vehicle post I've been dying to make. Thank you everyone, especially arglactable, for obliging me :)

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I always looked at vehicles in a vehicle vs vehicle centered way. For whatever reason I never cared about player vs vehicle. I think the former was h2, 3 and reachs strength. Getting into vehicle only battles was the most fun in those games for me. Just about all 3 fail to take into account the individual in a meaningful way though. Which is disappointing.

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