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CyReN

Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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Well if our goal is a fun fuck around map I think we can do better lockout. It's a bad competitive map and not a great casual one either. It just happened to launch in a game where most of the maps were equally awful. Bar middy.

 

Yeah.. I was with you for a while man, while you were talking about Slayer not being the best on that map (it's not).. But this is just insane. Halo 2 classic had some of the best maps in the franchise first and foremost. Please argue otherwise. 

 

Secondly, Lockout was an amazing casual map, where in the world did you formulate that idea that the only reason people "liked" this map is because all of the other maps are equally bad? People played FFA snipers.. 1v1s.. Oddball, etc all on this map for fun.

 

I usually agree with most of your critiques on maps, but this is just asinine. 

 

What are some of the best maps for each of the games?

  • CE - Chillout, Damnation.. These maps only work in CE but they play amazingly for that game.
  • Halo 3 - What was the best map? The Pit, maybe? Two of the better maps in this game were INSPIRED by Halo 2 (Guardian and Heretic).
  • Halo 4 - LUL. You have Haven to argue with here. That is literally it. Unless you throw Pitfall in the loop.
  • Reach - What's the best map we had here? Zealot or Countdown? Please elaborate on either of these maps being better than any Halo 2 map (in which ANOTHER one of the best maps in the game were stolen from Halo 2).
  • Halo 5 - Someone on here argued with me that Plaza was the best map since Halo 3, so please make the case for this map or any other map in Halo 5. Coliseum is like the only actually well designed map in this game that has a proper flow to it.

 

The comment 

It just happened to launch in a game where most of the maps were equally awful

is by far the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen you say.

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What are some of the best maps for each of the games?

 

  • CE - Chillout, Damnation.. These maps only work in CE but they play amazingly for that game.
  • Halo 3 - What was the best map? The Pit, maybe? Two of the better maps in this game were INSPIRED by Halo 2 (Guardian and Heretic).
  • Halo 4 - LUL. You have Haven to argue with here. That is literally it. Unless you throw Pitfall in the loop.
  • Reach - What's the best map we had here? Zealot or Countdown? Please elaborate on either of these maps being better than any Halo 2 map (in which ANOTHER one of the best maps in the game were stolen from Halo 2).
  • Halo 5 - Someone on here argued with me that Plaza was the best map since Halo 3, so please make the case for this map or any other map in Halo 5. Coliseum is like the only actually well designed map in this game that has a proper flow to it.

 

The comment 

is by far the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen you say.

 

There aren't any maps in Halo 3 by themselves that are good across the board. It depends on the gametype used for the map. KOTH Construct is great, for example. The Pit is really only great for CTF. Guardian is overrated, mostly because the lifts ruin what could have been a great map.

 

Halo 4 has no great maps.

 

The best map in Reach wasn't even used for competitive play(Powerhouse).

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There aren't any maps in Halo 3 by themselves that are good across the board. It depends on the gametype used for the map. KOTH Construct is great, for example. The Pit is really only great for CTF. Guardian is overrated, mostly because the lifts ruin what could have been a great map.

 

Halo 4 has no great maps.

 

The best map in Reach wasn't even used for competitive play(Powerhouse).

 

KotH Construct was fine, but it wasn't nearly the best gametype->map combination in the game at all. Guardian is overrated, and that's my entire point.

 

Powerhouse was only cool because of the beam thing on it (I forget the name of it lol). When you start playing Top 1% sweaty Onyx players on it, it gets pretty annoying. Fun to mess around in 6v6 customs though with a bunch of friends.

 

But to circle back around to my original point, saying that Halo 2 had "equally awful maps" when they have maps that are still used today and quite literally inspired multiple maps in every subsequent Halo title just proves my point.

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KotH Construct was fine, but it wasn't nearly the best gametype->map combination in the game at all. Guardian is overrated, and that's my entire point.

 

Powerhouse was only cool because of the beam thing on it (I forget the name of it lol). When you start playing Top 1% sweaty Onyx players on it, it gets pretty annoying. Fun to mess around in 6v6 customs though with a bunch of friends.

 

KotH Construct was the best competitive gametype H3 had. And I'm talking about the gametypes that were unique to H3. Oddball, CTF, or Slayer on Heretic don't count because those were played in H2. CTF Pit is close, but I don't think it's as interesting to watch or play. Oddball Guardian is okay. No other gametypes come close.

 

Powerhouse should have at the very least been considered for competitive play. I don't think it was at all.

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KotH Construct was the best competitive gametype H3 had. And I'm talking about the gametypes that were unique to H3. Oddball, CTF, or Slayer on Heretic don't count because those were played in H2. CTF Pit is close, but I don't think it's as interesting to watch or play. Oddball Guardian is okay. No other gametypes come close.

 

Powerhouse should have at the very least been considered for competitive play. I don't think it was at all.

 

KotH Construct was certainly not the best gametype H3 had. Pretty much all of the CTFs played WAYYY better than KotH Construct. Especially Heretic, it definitely does count. You can make a case for it being better than Oddball Guardian, but that's literally about it. Literally every person I knew and everyone at 50 high in MLG vetoed that gametype immediately. It was okay, but it wasn't nearly the best in any capacity.

 

 

Powerhouse should have at the very least been considered for competitive play. I don't think it was at all.

 

It was considered, we tested it. It's just a huge campfest though, you get to the top and destroy people coming uphill with a ton of cover. It was pretty much High Ground 2.0. Did you ever visit the mlg forums back in the day? We definitely talked about it quite a bit.

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And it wasn't shocking either. Had the worst gametypes of all time. No Halo 2 (classic) or CE, and H2A and Halo 3 were SMG and AR start respectively. And Halo 4 was Halo 4. It was god awful.

It did have CE at the start....I remember playing it. Infact CE is probably my favourite Halo FFA.

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  • Halo 4 - LUL. You have Haven to argue with here. That is literally it. Unless you throw Pitfall in the loop.

I liked Skyline.

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It did have CE at the start....I remember playing it. Infact CE is probably my favourite Halo FFA.

 

Oh yeah, you're right. That Derelict FFA thoughhhh!

 

I liked Skyline.

 

Skyline was dope, I like getting that map whenever I do decide to play H4.

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Yeah.. I was with you for a while man, while you were talking about Slayer not being the best on that map (it's not).. But this is just insane. Halo 2 classic had some of the best maps in the franchise first and foremost. Please argue otherwise. 

 

Secondly, Lockout was an amazing casual map, where in the world did you formulate that idea that the only reason people "liked" this map is because all of the other maps are equally bad? People played FFA snipers.. 1v1s.. Oddball, etc all on this map for fun.

 

I usually agree with most of your critiques on maps, but this is just asinine. 

 

What are some of the best maps for each of the games?

  • CE - Chillout, Damnation.. These maps only work in CE but they play amazingly for that game.
  • Halo 3 - What was the best map? The Pit, maybe? Two of the better maps in this game were INSPIRED by Halo 2 (Guardian and Heretic).
  • Halo 4 - LUL. You have Haven to argue with here. That is literally it. Unless you throw Pitfall in the loop.
  • Reach - What's the best map we had here? Zealot or Countdown? Please elaborate on either of these maps being better than any Halo 2 map (in which ANOTHER one of the best maps in the game were stolen from Halo 2).
  • Halo 5 - Someone on here argued with me that Plaza was the best map since Halo 3, so please make the case for this map or any other map in Halo 5. Coliseum is like the only actually well designed map in this game that has a proper flow to it.

 

The comment 

is by far the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen you say.

Perhaps awful wasn't the best word choice...uninspired is probably more in line with how I feel.  How many of Halo 2's 4v4 maps are just giant donuts? Desolation, Foundation, Middy, Warlock. 

 

I think there were good BTB options in H2, probably only beaten out by H3.

 

But in terms of 4v4, Ascension was really bad, Backwash was bad, Colossus was okay, Desolation was boring and way overscaled for the BR, Elongation was okay, Foundation was bad, Gemini was bad, Ivory Tower is awful oh my lord....

 

 

actually reading through an entire list of H2 maps I'm inclined to change my opinion on the matter honestly.  I forgot how many decent maps there were.  Looks like there are 5 viable comp maps between Lockout Ball, Sanc Flag/Bomb, Middy anything, Warlock Slayer, and Beaver Creek Slayer.  

 

Compared to H3 which had Pit Flag (I liked Pit Koth more but that's a separate discussion), Construct Koth, Narrows Flag, Middy anything, Guardian Ball, and Foundry variants.

 

 

Yeah I don't know why but in my head whenever I think of Halo 2 I think of Foundation and Desolation and I get really bored but looking at a list it looks like collectively it has a stronger map pool than any Halo game except 3.  I'll admit I spoke incorrectly on this one.

 

 

On the topic of Lockout.  I don't know if using FFA snipes and 1v1 is a viable way to judge a map, seems like a strangely small and random sub gametype to judge whether or not a map is "good".  Like I could argue that Coagulation is a "good" map because I can play good Rocket Race on it, doesn't really make sense.  To me, when I talk about how a map plays I'm talking about nothing but the absolute highest level tournament play on it's intended gametype.  Because anything less than that doesn't really matter to me, I don't really care how a map plays casually because honestly any map can play fun casually.  What do you say to someone who says that Snowbound is their favorite casual map? Nothing, because it's what they like.  And that's fine, so the only merit that's really fair to say something is "good" is what the design actually allows and promotes when rubber hits the road.  Lockout plays like dogshit for Slayer but gives some cool options for Oddball.  Normally when I/forgers talk about how good a map is Slayer is the baseline but I know not everything can be judged by that standard.  I usually say Lockout is bad when speaking casually because most people think about it for Slayer, but if we're speaking in context of Oddball I'd say it's an alright map.

 

 

Also I'd rather kill myself than play a Lockout 1v1.

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It was considered, we tested it. It's just a huge campfest though, you get to the top and destroy people coming uphill with a ton of cover. It was pretty much High Ground 2.0. Did you ever visit the mlg forums back in the day? We definitely talked about it quite a bit.

 

I frequented the MLG forums, most definitely. And I remember it being shot down pretty quickly. But if you say it was considered, I'll take your word for it.

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All lockout needs is one or two powerups to enforce map movement.

 

They tried that with the Stalactites in H2A's Lockdown.  

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They tried that with the Stalactites in H2A's Lockdown.  

I mean it worked when @@Mikwen was trying to kill 2gre on elbow :kappa:

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They tried that with the Stalactites in H2A's Lockdown.

Not equivalent at all and regrowing stalactites are immersion breaking to the 1th degree.

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@@MultiLockOn

 

Why is that for lockout 1v1's? I never was a big fan of 1v1's in halo in general. Always felt that if you were going to 1v1 someone in halo as a testament of player skill, then you should play a different game more suited to dueling.

 

MLG's choice was wiz and warlock. Wizard, while somewhat uninsipired, had 2 power ups for each player (since you can't stack) it had no top spawns. Warlock at least has top spawns yet somehow has a worse spawn trap when you camp the section where the ramp meets a plat.

 

They may have picked the maps because they were symmetrical and fair, but I'm not sure if I know anyone who competed in halo 2 that actually prefered warlock to lockout, or any map to lock out for 1v1.

 

I feel that it's biggest problem was sword/snipe and the dynamic respawn system. If it was static I think snipe would be more tolerable. I think a large part of this has to do with the ability to push and take various different routes that are just borderline impossible to make in 4v4 scenarios.

 

I loved the jump tactics on that map and thought it was a large part of the 1v1 experience on lockout since we don't have the same emphasis on dueling like quake does.

 

Sometimes I find there is a blurred line regarding the word competitive. Octagon is competitive and pure aim/strafe skill, but puts no emphasis on showcasing a players map awareness and control etc. A map like lockout for 1v1 offers a lot more to it to display those aspects, even though it has other problems like dynamic timers, starting spawns etc.

 

With all this said. I'm still not a fan of 1v1s in halo.

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Not equivalent at all and regrowing stalactites are immersion breaking to the 1th degree.

 

Never said I liked it, just said they tried it.

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They tried that with the Stalactites in H2A's Lockdown.  

 

But those could be shot from literally anywhere on the map...  It's not encouraging movement if you can just shoot it...

If anything those inhibited movement by making top mid inherently more dangerous at times and/or forcing you to pause and shoot them down if you needed to take that path.

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After reading this post, I'm actually glad you didn't get hired by 343.  Fucking absolute cancer.

 

Lol okay man. Sorry you feel that passionately about Lockout.

 

@@MultiLockOn

 

Why is that for lockout 1v1's? I never was a big fan of 1v1's in halo in general. Always felt that if you were going to 1v1 someone in halo as a testament of player skill, then you should play a different game more suited to dueling.

 

MLG's choice was wiz and warlock. Wizard, while somewhat uninsipired, had 2 power ups for each player (since you can't stack) it had no top spawns. Warlock at least has top spawns yet somehow has a worse spawn trap when you camp the section where the ramp meets a plat.

 

They may have picked the maps because they were symmetrical and fair, but I'm not sure if I know anyone who competed in halo 2 that actually prefered warlock to lockout, or any map to lock out for 1v1.

 

I feel that it's biggest problem was sword/snipe and the dynamic respawn system. If it was static I think snipe would be more tolerable. I think a large part of this has to do with the ability to push and take various different routes that are just borderline impossible to make in 4v4 scenarios.

 

I loved the jump tactics on that map and thought it was a large part of the 1v1 experience on lockout since we don't have the same emphasis on dueling like quake does.

 

Sometimes I find there is a blurred line regarding the word competitive. Octagon is competitive and pure aim/strafe skill, but puts no emphasis on showcasing a players map awareness and control etc. A map like lockout for 1v1 offers a lot more to it to display those aspects, even though it has other problems like dynamic timers, starting spawns etc.

 

With all this said. I'm still not a fan of 1v1s in halo.

 

Yeah 1v1 is absolutely not Halo strong suit.  I'm judging Forgehub's $1000 1v1 contest right now, there's some 97 entries and honestly they're all....not great.  I've already posted there saying that if it were MY money I would've just cancelled the contest because I don't think any of them are good enough for that kind of cash.  My point is, it takes a lot to make a solid 1v1 experience in a game like Halo with recharging health and slow/ish movement speed.  Lockout in particular, if someone REALLY wanted to be a douche in a Lockout 1v1 they could pick any number of infinite ledges or corners to crouch in Library of Snipe Tower or BR tower and you would never expect them there until they backsmack you.  Granted, most people didn't do this...but they could.  And honestly should if they really wanted to win.  Not to mention the entire premise of towers to hold up in, in a 1v1 environment make it really difficult to actually push up after someone backs off to recharge their health.  Encounters often don't really lead anywhere.

 

But again, I don't know why when I think of Halo 2 I think of Foundation and Desolation and Gemini but I've always instinctively thought of it as one of the weaker Halo games in terms of map pools.  But looking at a list in front of me that couldn't be further from the truth, it might even be better than H3 in some regards.  I definitely spoke incorrectly on that one.

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Lol okay man. Sorry you feel that passionately about Lockout.

 

....

 

 

I don't, but christ man, maybe try to steer away from a subject or map you clearly know very little about. I understand you have experience as a Forger, but it's painfully obvious you never played much Lockout back in the day or even currently.  So consider leaning on the opinions of people with real experience?

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I don't, but christ man, maybe try to steer away from a subject or map you clearly know very little about. I understand you have experience as a Forger, but it's painfully obvious you never played much Lockout back in the day or even currently. So consider leaning on the opinions of people with real experience?

LMAO

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People who don't like lockout or think lockout is a bad map don't know how to play it. 

I used to hate lockout and made excuses for my shortcomings as a player on that map. The main one was "the map is bad, the map is standoffish etc". Then i realized it's the map the requires the most teamwork, the most coordinated teamshot, the most nerdy nades and the most overall team coordination. It's also one of the few maps that still has room for insane amazing individual plays and teamplays (like headjumping) specifically because of it's map design. It's the map that offers the most but also requires the most and that makes it unique in the skillgap for halo 2. 

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People who don't like lockout or think lockout is a bad map don't know how to play it.

I used to hate lockout and made excuses for my shortcomings as a player on that map. The main one was "the map is bad, the map is standoffish etc". Then i realized it's the map the requires the most teamwork, the most coordinated teamshot, the most nerdy nades and the most overall team coordination. It's also one of the few maps that still has room for insane amazing individual plays and teamplays (like headjumping) specifically because of it's map design. It's the map that offers the most but also requires the most and that makes it unique in the skillgap for halo 2.

I do prefer CE but love me some H2 as well. I agree with the shortcomings of lockout regarding it being a standoffish map that isn't helped out by the dynamic weapon spawn system.

 

I do think breaking a set up on lockout requires a lot of coooridinaton and team skill. I still remember going to my first NJ halo tournament and sitting down at a table with our team going over how we planned to break the set up. Things evolved and improved strategy wise since then. We actually would try to rush top mid to library with a guy bottom blue who would shoot window, lift and keep applying pressure. Two teammates up at snipe 2/3 that would also apply pressure and the last would jump from the tail of s1 to top mid to library.

 

This was like 05, at the end of 2007 we were going down to elbow and throwing nades into window and short ramp etc.

 

 

It reminds me sorta of damnation and the coordination it takes when you have no map control and camp is coming up. It's typical that one player throws a grenade to knock camo into pit. Camo is too important to give up so players will either drop for it themselves, or be forced to make the decision to watch top port and keep a beneficial spot on the map. Watching top players coordinate this is always cool.

 

Obviously things are a bit different in the situation, but it's an example of how sometimes unfavorable situations demand a tighter window of coordination.

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