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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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I really don't think we were but whatever. I'm just saying that Lockout standoffs were a feature, not a bug. The sneaky, careful, slow style that it promoted was an excellent change of pace from, say, Warlock, which exercised a completely different type of team coherence. It reminds me a lot of close games on Damnation where each camo is heavily contested. Winning damnation is as much about coordinating unpredictable pushes and using unconventional angles to challenge the powerups as it is about running and gunning.

 

In my opinion, part of what makes Halo great is that the game fluidly moves between many different paces. Sometimes it makes sense to slow it down, sometimes it makes sense to speed it up. A huge part of what defines a team's style of gameplay is how they modulate between these two extremes to play their advantages. Fast-paced gameplay with constant spawn-nading and very aggressive pushes can be really difficult to overcome, but sometimes discipline and carefully choosing your battles can win the day. Maps which can support both styles are my favorite - where else can you have a fast and furious game suddenly freeze at 49-49? The best, most dramatic Halo moments in history are made here. Think about epic standoffs between TDT and StK on Chill Out, or FB coming back by 13 kills on Beaver Creek. Those maps -can- be played ferociously, but it's also possible to camp pink room. And once you do, the counter-play (jump into the window from the rafters in side-room?) can be a fascinating piece of the meta.

 

Enter: Lockout oddball, which was a spectacular gametype in which a standoff was only possible if a team was that much better than their opponents - not because the map design made traversal almost impossible. As it turned out, the only way to balance Lockout was to literally take one player out of the fight. 

 

And the only way you could camp pink room is if the other team ran out of nades. 

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I really don't think we were but whatever. I'm just saying that Lockout standoffs were a feature, not a bug. The sneaky, careful, slow style that it promoted was an excellent change of pace from, say, Warlock, which exercised a completely different type of team coherence. It reminds me a lot of close games on Damnation where each camo is heavily contested. Winning damnation is as much about coordinating unpredictable pushes and using unconventional angles to challenge the powerups as it is about running and gunning.

 

In my opinion, part of what makes Halo great is that the game fluidly moves between many different paces. Sometimes it makes sense to slow it down, sometimes it makes sense to speed it up. A huge part of what defines a team's style of gameplay is how they modulate between these two extremes to play their advantages. Fast-paced gameplay with constant spawn-nading and very aggressive pushes can be really difficult to overcome, but sometimes discipline and carefully choosing your battles can win the day. Maps which can support both styles are my favorite - where else can you have a fast and furious game suddenly freeze at 49-49? The best, most dramatic Halo moments in history are made here. Think about epic standoffs between TDT and StK on Chill Out, or FB coming back by 13 kills on Beaver Creek. Those maps -can- be played ferociously, but it's also possible to camp pink room. And once you do, the counter-play (jump into the window from the rafters in side-room?) can be a fascinating piece of the meta.

Don't think I've ever disagreed with a post more.

 

 

1: changing "playstyles" is fine, but I don't consider camping a playstyle. In fact it pretty much implies the lack of a playstyle which would usually imply that people choose to make different decisions. Camping is basically making no decision. Lockout is camping.

 

2: Listing epic standoffs as a plus is prioritising the viewer experience over how the game actually plays...how a video game, plays. Yes, it's cool to watch because it's slow and tense. Being IN a 4v4 49-49 standoff on lockout is stupid. It has nothing to do with skill, or movement, or gunplay. It has to do with who gets a lucky pick from peeking, which shocker...is how lockout plays at a fundamental level.

 

A team that chooses to do something should ALWAYS beat the team that chooses to do nothing. Always.

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Don't think I've ever disagreed with a post more.

 

 

1: changing "playstyles" is fine, but I don't consider camping a playstyle. In fact it pretty much implies the lack of a playstyle which would usually imply that people choose to make different decisions. Camping is basically making no decision. Lockout is camping.

 

2: Listing epic standoffs as a plus is prioritising the viewer experience over how the game actually plays...how a video game, plays. Yes, it's cool to watch because it's slow and tense. Being IN a 4v4 49-49 standoff on lockout is stupid. It has nothing to do with skill, or movement, or gunplay. It has to do with who gets a lucky pick from peeking, which shocker...is how lockout plays at a fundamental level.

 

A team that chooses to do something should ALWAYS beat the team that chooses to do nothing. Always.

I don't think we should limit ourselves by saying any one thing Should ALWAYS happen.

 

I don't like lockout either and I always considered it overrated.

 

But the bottom line is other people LOVE IT. one of the most popular maps in Halo history. Fun is subjective, and regardless of how much knowledge you or lemon or anybody has on map design, the fact remains that the style of gameplay that lockout provides is enjoyed by a lot of people, and a wide range of people at that.

 

And that fact remains true regardless of the subjective definition that is given to what "defines" an arena shooter or a good map or whatever.

 

Anyway just feel like we need to be a bit more open minded about that sort of thing.

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I don't think we should limit ourselves by saying any one thing Should ALWAYS happen.

 

I don't like lockout either and I always considered it overrated.

 

But the bottom line is other people LOVE IT. one of the most popular maps in Halo history. Fun is subjective, and regardless of how much knowledge you or lemon or anybody has on map design, the fact remains that the style of gameplay that lockout provides is enjoyed by a lot of people, and a wide range of people at that.

 

And that fact remains true regardless of the subjective definition that is given to what "defines" an arena shooter or a good map or whatever.

 

Anyway just feel like we need to be a bit more open minded about that sort of thing.

Well, I understand that. I made a video about it.

 

 

Regardless. I don't think people ACTUALLY love lookout, I think they like casual matchmaking fuck around lockout. The second you get in a ranked match where nobody wants to lose the map loses all its charm the moment you spawn as red team instead of blue (blue spawns in snipe tower I believe). Just like people "love" The Pit, until you get to 50 in MLG or TS and slayer games end 7 to 5 because you can't push past the 50 yard line without getting team shot to shit.

 

How a map actually plays is very different from what people experience in the day to day social matchmaking. I believe they're more inclined to enjoy the style of Lockout rather than what Lockout actually is. Meaning they like the straightforward BR fights down controlled lanes. Just like I enjoy the encounters on The Pit, but I don't REALLY enjoy the Pit. But the clean angles on the floors and walls and simple sight lines make it feel like a nice little playground. There's no death pits, there's a sniper tower to have fun with, all the good stuff.

 

No one, and I mean no one, no matter how stupid of a player you are, ACTUALLY enjoys trying to break Lockout setups again and again and again while losing.

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Well, I understand that. I made a video about it.

 

 

Regardless. I don't think people ACTUALLY love lookout, I think they like casual matchmaking fuck around lockout. The second you get in a ranked match where nobody wants to lose the map loses all its charm the moment you spawn as red team instead of blue (blue spawns in snipe tower I believe). Just like people "love" The Pit, until you get to 50 in MLG or TS and slayer games end 7 to 5 because you can't push past the 50 yard line without getting team shot to shit.

 

How a map actually plays is very different from what people experience in the day to day social matchmaking. I believe they're more inclined to enjoy the style of Lockout rather than what Lockout actually is. Meaning they like the straightforward BR fights down controlled lanes. Just like I enjoy the encounters on The Pit, but I don't REALLY enjoy the Pit. But the clean angles on the floors and walls and simple sight lines make it feel like a nice little playground. There's no death pits, there's a sniper tower to have fun with, all the good stuff.

 

No one, and I mean no one, no matter how stupid of a player you are, ACTUALLY enjoys trying to break Lockout setups again and again and again while losing.

I think it's a situation where the general gameplay and style is enjoyed by a lot but at the highest level of play with the most optimal strategies determined...it's unfortunately a very straightforward and like you said repetitive affair.

 

But there's also more ways to play a map than 4v4 hyper competitive slayer so I still believe their is value in having maps like Lockout.

 

In comp both teams lock down the same 2 points each match. BR tower, and Sniper Tower. The lack of routes makes getting from one to the other very difficult and not worth it and also there's a lack of necessity to ever move around. I understand why the map breaks in those conditions, but there are other forms of Halo where the map shines.

 

I also think it's possible that a map can play like a competitive dream...but perform very poorly in a casual environment, and you could argue whether the map is good or bad there as well.

 

Idk I just find myself thinking about stuff like this a lot.

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People constantly played Lockout with 1v1 radar and FFA snipers. It was pretty clear that few people cared how the map actually functioned. 

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Well, I understand that. I made a video about it.

 

 

Regardless. I don't think people ACTUALLY love lookout, I think they like casual matchmaking fuck around lockout. The second you get in a ranked match where nobody wants to lose the map loses all its charm the moment you spawn as red team instead of blue (blue spawns in snipe tower I believe). Just like people "love" The Pit, until you get to 50 in MLG or TS and slayer games end 7 to 5 because you can't push past the 50 yard line without getting team shot to shit.

 

How a map actually plays is very different from what people experience in the day to day social matchmaking. I believe they're more inclined to enjoy the style of Lockout rather than what Lockout actually is. Meaning they like the straightforward BR fights down controlled lanes. Just like I enjoy the encounters on The Pit, but I don't REALLY enjoy the Pit. But the clean angles on the floors and walls and simple sight lines make it feel like a nice little playground. There's no death pits, there's a sniper tower to have fun with, all the good stuff.

 

No one, and I mean no one, no matter how stupid of a player you are, ACTUALLY enjoys trying to break Lockout setups again and again and again while losing.

Some of my best memories of halo 2 were casual fuck-around lockout games, and some of the worst were sweaty lockout ts games. In fact, I'm pretty sure we had more fun running around that map doing practically nothing while everyone sang "Since you've been gone" at the top of their lungs than we did actually playing a real comp game on that map.

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The only reason i had fun playing sub 20 kill games was when i would rank up. Stick me in a custom game or tourny and its immediately not fun

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Why did they take FFA away ages ago? Love playing FFA in Halo but theres no playlist.

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ctf_2fort is historically the most popular map in Team Fortress 2.  It is also by all means completely awful for serious capture the flag matches in that both teams can just setup in their own base and matches can sometimes drag on for literal hours as base setups are almost impossible to break due to the map's design.  A typical match will result in players rushing into the other base just to see how many kills they can get before dying, or people battling in the center of the map as the "flags" remain untouched for ten minutes at a time.

 

However what it does accomplish well is giving people a long lasting casual environment to frag in that they can jump in and out of at any time.  This is why people love an otherwise awful map.

 

2fort, Blood Gulch, Lockout, Chiron...I think these maps have a place in their games, even if not for competitive play.  They bring something unique to the table.

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ctf_2fort is historically the most popular map in Team Fortress 2. It is also by all means completely awful for serious capture the flag matches in that both teams can just setup in their own base and matches can sometimes drag on for literal hours as base setups are almost impossible to break due to the map's design. A typical match will result in players rushing into the other base just to see how many kills they can get before dying, or people battling in the center of the map as the "flags" remain untouched for ten minutes at a time.

 

However what it does accomplish well is giving people a long lasting casual environment to frag in that they can jump in and out of at any time. This is why people love an otherwise awful map.

 

2fort, Blood Gulch, Lockout, Chiron...I think these maps have a place in their games, even if not for competitive play. They bring something unique to the table.

Well if our goal is a fun fuck around map I think we can do better lockout. It's a bad competitive map and not a great casual one either. It just happened to launch in a game where most of the maps were equally awful. Bar middy.

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ctf_2fort is historically the most popular map in Team Fortress 2.  It is also by all means completely awful for serious capture the flag matches in that both teams can just setup in their own base and matches can sometimes drag on for literal hours as base setups are almost impossible to break due to the map's design.  A typical match will result in players rushing into the other base just to see how many kills they can get before dying, or people battling in the center of the map as the "flags" remain untouched for ten minutes at a time.

 

However what it does accomplish well is giving people a long lasting casual environment to frag in that they can jump in and out of at any time.  This is why people love an otherwise awful map.

 

2fort, Blood Gulch, Lockout, Chiron...I think these maps have a place in their games, even if not for competitive play.  They bring something unique to the table.

 

I know the point you're trying to make, but I'd like to interject and just say that 2fort is for players who are running the game on an toaster and people who are genuinely awful at the game. Its the most cramped map in the game short of Junction (which EVERYONE hates). Hightower is way better at pseudo-deathmatch.

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Why did they take FFA away ages ago? Love playing FFA in Halo but theres no playlist.

population was the worst of all playlists apparently.

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So is MCC officially the Master Quit Collection? 

 

Because I have yet to finish a game tonight. 

I've oddly been having good luck. Decided the first thing I should play on the Xb O X is Halo. I think I've only had 2 games out of the handful I've played where we had people quit. I'm sure if I played more I'd get right back to having people drop like flies.

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Only on TB would you have people saying that no one liked lockout.

 

Yeah some of these posts bashing Lockout and its competitive merit have me hunched over laughing. 

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Only on TB would you have people saying that no one liked lockout.

When I talk about how a map plays, I'm talking about how it ACTUALLY plays. Meaning how it plays at the highest level, anything less than that is irrelevant and not indicative of the maps design.

 

Find 8 people to all pitch in $1000 each for a prize pool and have them play to win the money back on Lockout slayer. Tell me how much fun that game is when no one wants to move an inch for fear of getting melted by a sniper holed up in the tower or a sword sitting bottom hall. Trying to break an unbreakable setup ISN'T fun, not for real competition. It's like playing professional tower of power on ascension.

 

 

 

 

Yeah some of these posts bashing Lockout and its competitive merit have me hunched over laughing.

For slayer? It doesn't have any merit, not even a little. Oddball you could make a case for.

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Yeah some of these posts bashing Lockout and its competitive merit have me hunched over laughing.

Pros will literally tell you Lockout slayer is shit lmao.

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Anyone playing Lockout 4v4 anything that isn't oddball or snipers is playing a map that literally doesn't function unless everyone is bad at the game. Its a lot like Guardian in that aspect. FFA, 1v1, 2v2, snipers, oddball, and sometimes koth are about the only things that can sometimes work on those two maps

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When I talk about how a map plays, I'm talking about how it ACTUALLY plays. Meaning how it plays at the highest level, anything less than that is irrelevant and not indicative of the maps design.

 

Find 8 people to all pitch in $1000 each for a prize pool and have them play to win the money back on Lockout slayer. Tell me how much fun that game is when no one wants to move an inch for fear of getting melted by a sniper holed up in the tower or a sword sitting bottom hall. Trying to break an unbreakable setup ISN'T fun, not for real competition. It's like playing professional tower of power on ascension.

 

 

 

 

For slayer? It doesn't have any merit, not even a little. Oddball you could make a case for.

 

 

Pros will literally tell you Lockout slayer is shit lmao.

 

Well yes of course, I believe Lockout Team Slayer was taken off the MLG pro circuit sometime in 06/07.  But 4v4 Oddball, 2v2 Slayer, FFA snipes, and even 1v1s all play very well here.  Lockout is one of the best asymmetrical maps we have in Halo; it just has the same problem Guardian has which is that 4v4 TS becomes campy and lame. 

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Just wanted to give a quick shout out to the team of six grinding in BTB tonight. (played against them a few times) They're deliberately not playing the objective and just spawn killing the opposing team. Calling out, timing weapons, and blatantly executing planned strategies, too. I'm talking like parking warthogs and flying banshees over each spawn zone and mowing everyone down for 20 minutes. I understand the concept of playing competitively versus playing casually, but this is unranked BTB, man. I like to goof around, socialize with random teammates, and have fun watercooler moments in-game. When I play MCC, I'm just trying to have a good time. I'll sweat in the competitive playlists.

 

I guess anyone could make the argument that this is a game design issue at its core, but I'm pretty annoyed that there are kids playing MCC like this. It's fucking pathetic. I know for a fact that there are many new players that are getting pushed away just because they feel the game is unfair or not accessible. I still get by and can hold my own, but I feel bad for those lesser skilled players.

There is nothing more pathetic than an 8 man BTB squad, in any Halo game. The spread of this cancer is only accelerated by 343s unwillingness to add party restrictions.

 

Exceptions are of course competitive BTB squads who actually scrim against good people instead of trying to match randoms all day.

 

And before people call me a salty ******, I have been on both sides of this. It isn't fun to get spawn trapped, but neither is trying to chase kills when you have 7 other sweaty tryhards on your team doing the same thing. It's largely a waste of time for everyone involved.

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Why did they take FFA away ages ago? Love playing FFA in Halo but theres no playlist.

 

 

population was the worst of all playlists apparently.

 

And it wasn't shocking either. Had the worst gametypes of all time. No Halo 2 (classic) or CE, and H2A and Halo 3 were SMG and AR start respectively. And Halo 4 was Halo 4. It was god awful.

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