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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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I don't like, respect, or understand how people, most people apparently, would rather disregard all objective games and just play slayer. I feel like this WHOLE thing stems from Bungie's God awful MM settings all the way back in 2004. If you remember, H2 didn't launch with a Team Slayer playlist. People asked for it because they hated most of the garbage ass gametypes Bungie had in the 4v4 hopper, and asked for a TS only playlist to cut out the fat.

Excellent post.

 

Remember guys, Halo 2 had the most moronic game settings in the history of multiplayer first person shooters. That's no exaggeration.

 

I mean, as if SMG starts wasn't bad enough, game types like CTF on Lockout actually existed.

 

Even 2v2 wasn't immune to Bungie's obsession with throwing in ridiculous game types such as CTF. (Pretty sure this was also in Halo 3 too)

 

I think many people on this forum weren't around (or maybe even alive) when Bungie brought us wonders such as rifles only on Ascension... WITH A FREAKIN' BANSHEE!!!

 

No wonder people wanted Team Slayer only in match making at the time! I remember posting that 2v2 maybe shouldn't have freakin' objective game types at the time.

 

So basically it was a self fulfilling prophecy.

  • Release absolutely AWFUL match making settings with objective game types that don't play well.
  • Fans ask for Team Slayer only because at least that way they know they won't be playing 4v4 Zanzibar 1 flag CTF.
  • Team Slayer quickly becomes the most popular playlist because all the others are awful.
  • Bungie thinks to themselves "Well this is our most popular playlist, we can't remove it."
  • Everyone goes into Team Slayer because it's the fastest way to find a game.
  • Everyone now believes objective playlists suck because for over a decade TS is all they've played.
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Wow, you guys are bringing up some stuff that 14 year old me thought was awesome. I distincly remember those Lockout CTF games. Only then I was thinking how awesome it was.

 

But, yea, this whole Slayer thing has become cyclical from the beginning, and it doesn't seem to have a jumping off point. You can't just take a large portion of the playerbase's favorite gametype away.

 

That leads to other problems like throwing games, dodging, and all the other things we consistently campaign against.

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Halo 2 had the best team objective playlist of all time, after the updates and all. If I remember correctly, every game was BR start.

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no one seems to have any real argument to the contrary.

 

I guess you didn't read any of my comments in the Halo 5 thread because I believe I raised some pretty valid points.

 

They were a couple of long posts so I don't feel like repeating myself, but 2 points I brought up which I believe you'd have a tough time arguing against is that:

 

1. Team Slayer showcases raw shooting skill. Walshy and friends won a lot of objective games but lost Team Slayer games because their individual shooting skill wasn't as good as other top teams. Halo is a FIRST PERSON SHOOTER, therefore, it makes sense that teams that are good at shooting shit are rewarded. I think mixing in 3 objective games with 2 Team Slayer games is a fairly good mix that ensures that the team that's best at EVERYTHING will generally win a best of 5.

 

2. In objective games kills are only a secondary objective. For example, it's possible to run a flag with all opponents alive if you know a sneaky flag route. It's also a lot easier to kill other players when they're focused on an objective. For example, it's a lot easier to shoot a player in the back as they're running for a last second touch of the flag.

 

In Team Slayer because kills are the objective they're harder to come by. Players aren't focusing on other objectives which means they're less likely to stick their head out from behind a wall and get their heads blown off by a sniper.

 

This makes every kill more exciting because players have to work a lot harder for their kills, not just bait the Oddball with a shotgun and get free kills.

 

Someone put it a good way when they referred to lives as resources in Team Slayer. In Oddball for example, time is your resource. You will happily sacrifice yourself to kill the Oddball carrier because if you die it's not a huge issue since the time you spend dead is time the other team doesn't accumulate points.

 

In Team Slayer plays like that are far riskier because you're directly giving the enemy team points so you can't afford to just throw yourselves at the enemy team and need to approach things like that with more strategy to ensure minimal amounts of lives lost.

 

If you think there's no "real argument to the contrary" I don't believe you've tried searching enough.

 

You can't make the argument that "objective takes more skill" because then you're ignoring that the actual act of killing other players in TS becomes a lot harder than it is in objective game types, you're just focusing the skill in different aspects of the game.

 

 

You know how you solve this shit? Make winning matter. STOP glorifying selfish statistics like K/D. K/D shouldn't even show up in an in-game career stats page, but instead have it feature W/L. Start giving players incentive to play for the win instead of the stats, like H3's playlist XP system.

 

If you remove players' statsturbating shrine to themselves and take away their means to show it off to others, that playstyle will lose its value. Replace those statistics with W/L, damage/min, and other "pure" stats and suddenly we're in business.

Ugh, no thanks. Sick of this participation medal crap infecting FPS. The last thing I want is another Overwatch where the game is scared of telling you you're garbage.

 

There's plenty of good ways to incentivise winning that doesn't make every player feel like they made an equal contribution to the team when one player went 30:1 and completely carried the game.

 

How about giving bonus REQ points for winning? And by bonus I don't mean an extra 5% for winning. By bonus I mean DOUBLE the amount of REQ for winning a game. Add on win streaks that ramp up REQ rewards for winning multiple games in a row.

 

Another method would be to offer bonus REQ points for players that play the objectives. Give a bonus 500 REQ points for a player that caps the flag or 500 REQ points for every 30 seconds they hold the ball in an Oddball game.

 

All of a sudden you'd have players fighting over running the flag instead of who picks up the next Sniper Rifle.

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It blows my mind that CS doesn't use competitive deathmatch. I mean it IS a FIRST PERSON SHOOTER. I guess it doesn't showcase gunskill because there are objectives. Those darn objectives really get in the way of showing gunskill. Slayer is the ONLY was to demonstrate gunskill because those darn objectives are just used as distractions to bait. I mean it's not like people that play obj try to stay alive that's ONLY a thing in slayer. Yup. Let's just play more slayer.

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It blows my mind that CS doesn't use competitive deathmatch. I mean it IS a FIRST PERSON SHOOTER. I guess it doesn't showcase gunskill because there are objectives. Those darn objectives really get in the way of showing gunskill. Slayer is the ONLY was to demonstrate gunskill because those darn objectives are just used as distractions to bait. I mean it's not like people that play obj try to stay alive that's ONLY a thing in slayer. Yup. Let's just play more slayer.

i could feel your blood pressure rising just by reading that

 

rock solid argument btw

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i could feel your blood pressure rising just by reading that

 

rock solid argument btw

Oh look you're still responding to me how cute. I must be relevant! If the almighty Moses acknowledges me! Wow!1!1!1!
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How many hours today have you spent on Halo related shit? 10? 15?

the grind never stops m8

 

esports ain't a 9-5 job

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It blows my mind that CS doesn't use competitive deathmatch. I mean it IS a FIRST PERSON SHOOTER. I guess it doesn't showcase gunskill because there are objectives. Those darn objectives really get in the way of showing gunskill. Slayer is the ONLY was to demonstrate gunskill because those darn objectives are just used as distractions to bait. I mean it's not like people that play obj try to stay alive that's ONLY a thing in slayer. Yup. Let's just play more slayer.

Most rounds end from slaying than bomb planting.

Slaying plays a much larger role than it does in Halo's objective as it can be the primary reason a round ends.

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Most rounds end from slaying than bomb planting.

Slaying plays a much larger role than it does in Halo's objective.

It's still an objective. And it's still an improvement over straight up slayer.
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the grind never stops m8

 

esports ain't a 9-5 job

 

​That may very well be true for people who actually work in esports.

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It's still an objective. And it's still an improvement over straight up slayer.

Aside from the fact that we are comparing apples to oranges.

 

I'd argue that slaying is the sole objective of CS. The bomb is merely a tool to help eliminate stalemates since CS has nothing else to help promote map movement.

Halo's TS doesn't have that problem, we have in map pick ups, power ups, power weapons to keep movement vital.

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​That may very well be true for people who actually work in esports.

people have been begging me to work for them lol

 

thanks for the comment though, you seem like a very nice guy!

 

i'm a real POS cause i like slayer  :kappa:

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Aside from the fact that we are comparing apples to oranges.

 

I'd argue that slaying is the sole objective of CS. The bomb is merely a tool to help eliminate stalemates since CS has nothing else to help promote map movement.

Halo's TS doesn't have that problem, we have in map pick ups, power ups, power weapons to keep movement vital.

And yet we still have games that end with less than 30 kills and it's still the least deep gametype with the simplest meta. Nothing will change the fact that the meta of slayer will always be the most shallow especially as team size goes up. Even the greatest slayer game of all time falls completely flat in a 4v4 environment.

 

And idk how you got to that conclusion for CS. The bomb aspect is just as important as the slaying.

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Aside from the fact that we are comparing apples to oranges.

 

I'd argue that slaying is the sole objective of CS. The bomb is merely a tool to help eliminate stalemates since CS has nothing else to help promote map movement.

Halo's TS doesn't have that problem, we have in map pick ups, power ups, power weapons to keep movement vital.

 

Except Halo does have a problem with Slayer, because for the last 13 years we've had slow Slayer games due to a mixture of flawed map design and slogged Power Weapon timers. It's time to bring back fast spawning shit so Slayer has more excitement.

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And yet we still have games that end with less than 30 kills and it's still the least deep gametype with the simplest meta. Nothing will change the fact that the meta of slayer will always be the most shallow especially as team size goes up. Even the greatest slayer game of all time falls completely flat in a 4v4 environment.

 

And idk how you got to that conclusion for CS. The bomb aspect is just as important as the slaying.

You don't have to be a good slayer to be a good objective player. There is a separate skill set that doesn't always transition over from both sides.

 

I draw that conclusion from the fact that deaths mean something in CS. If the bomb was so vital why don't we see more rounds end in bomb plants rather than slays.

 

Except Halo does have a problem with Slayer, because for the last 13 years we've had slow Slayer games due to a mixture of flawed map design and slogged Power Weapon timers. It's time to bring back fast spawning shit so Slayer has more excitement.

Hence why I've been pushing that we need to look into what maps slayer is applied to and not just use it as an overall "use this gametype on any map."

I mean you basically explained it yourself. The problem isn't Slayer as a gametype, its the maps its applied to and the weapon timers. You can tweak both of those pretty easily.

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You don't have to be a good slayer to be a good objective player. There is a separate skill set that doesn't always transition over from both sides.

 

I draw that conclusion from the fact that deaths mean something in CS. If the bomb was so vital why don't we see more rounds end in bomb plants rather than slays.

 

Hence why I've been pushing that we need to look into what maps slayer is applied to and not just use it as an overall "use this gametype on any map."

I mean you basically explained it yourself. The problem isn't Slayer as a gametype, its the maps its applied to and the weapon timers. You can tweak both of those pretty easily.

You don't really have teams winning that many obj games without getting slays. And those obj players still have to get kills to win. You guys act like obj is just a bunch of kids with no gunskill flying around. Slayer doesn't really show gunskill better than obj. It's way slower paced. There are way less engagements. There's not much movement. In obj you have to be able to run and gun and engage people constantly while at odd angles.

 

And dude just because the bomb isn't getting armed doesn't mean it's not doing anything. The reason kills happen where they do is because of the bomb sites. Go take them away and see how CS plays.

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You don't really have teams winning that many obj games without getting slays. And those obj players still have to get kills to win. You guys act like obj is just a bunch of kids with no gunskill flying around. Slayer doesn't really show gunskill better than obj. It's way slower paced. There are way less engagements. There's not much movement. In obj you have to be able to run and gun and engage people constantly while at odd angles.

 

And dude just because the bomb isn't getting armed doesn't mean it's not doing anything. The reason kills happen where they do is because of the bomb sites. Go take them away and see how CS plays.

Let me rephrase that. You don't have to be an amazing slayer to be an amazing objective player. Walshy is the best example of this. I'm not trying to portray that at all. Slower paced and less engagements isn't telling me that Slayer is a bad gametype. Nor is it true in every instance. 

 

Never said it wasn't doing anything. Its a tool to force map movement.

The maps themselves are even pushing for kills before the bomb even becomes an option. They force you through choke points that you aren't getting through without a fight. The bomb is secondary to slaying.

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Let me rephrase that. You don't have to be an amazing slayer to be an amazing objective player. Walshy is the best example of this. I'm not trying to portray that at all. Slower paced and less engagements isn't telling me that Slayer is a bad gametype. Nor is it true in every instance.

 

Never said it wasn't doing anything. Its a tool to force map movement.

The maps themselves are even pushing for kills before the bomb even becomes an option. They force you through choke points that you aren't getting through without a fight. The bomb is secondary to slaying.

And you don't have to be a good slayer to get kills in slayer. You just have to land one bullet on a weak guy.

 

Dude I don't think you understand CS. The bomb sites are what force you to move. One team HAS to push or they lose. If you take the bomb away why in Gods name would anyone leave their spawn? Why would anyone bother pushing? The bomb sites are the entire reason the game mode works.

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And you don't have to be a good slayer to get kills in slayer. You just have to land one bullet on a weak guy.

 

Dude I don't think you understand CS. The bomb sites are what force you to move. One team HAS to push or they lose. If you take the bomb away why in Gods name would anyone leave their spawn? Why would anyone bother pushing? The bomb sites are the entire reason the game mode works.

I guess I'm not understanding your point. I can say the same about standing in a hill for a couple of second and doing nothing.

Walshy is a good slayer, he just isn't one of the best. Its a different skill set. That's all I've been trying to portray.

 

I think the argument you are trying to make is that it doesn't matter if slaying is the main focus, none of it would happen without the bomb. I'm just talking this through as I go, spit balling. Although is "The bomb sites are what force you to move" not the same as "Its a tool to force map movement" lol.

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I guess I'm not understanding your point. I can say the same about standing in a hill for a couple of second and doing nothing.

Walshy is a good slayer, he just isn't one of the best. Its a different skill set. That's all I've been trying to portray.

 

I think the argument you are trying to make is that it doesn't matter if slaying is the main focus, none of it would happen without the bomb. I'm just talking this through as I go, spit balling. Although is "The bomb sites are what force you to move" not the same as "Its a tool to force map movement" lol.

Winning TS doesn't require a different skill set though. They're historically the most inconsistent gametype. It's the one gametype AM teams (or just lower skilled teams in general) seem to be able to take off pros. It's a wildly inconsistent gametype.

 

And as I've stated before there's a difference between "encouraging" and "forcing" map movement. Slayer does not force map movement on its own even with Power weapons. Power weapons act as an incentive to move and half TS time it's the ONLY time people move. Even then someone can come in and burn a power weapon/up and make a standoff for another 2 minutes. Or, in the case of maps like Sanc even with Power weapons people still don't move. But aside from power weapons why is playing a gametype where the strategy for most of the game is just "stay alive don't move too much" good? Slayer ONLY worked on maps where sitting back just wasn't possible. Warlock, Middy, And Amplitude are the only maps I've seen that can play slayer decently. And even then many people considered those maps pretty much RNG.

CS FORCES a team to go to the objective or they lose. That's a huge difference.

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