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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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A lot of CE people talk shit on here about Halo 3 and people that like Halo 3, but not everyone thinks CE is the best. I'm not afraid to admit that Halo 3 is my favorite and in my opinion the best. I mainly play Big Team because I like the epic nature of the game type. Bigger maps, BR start every game, heavy weapons, vehicles, more players, more strats that can be played out, more 1v1 confrontations. Halo 3 BTB has always hit that sweet spot for me in terms of balance, competitiveness, and fun. When I was playing MCC BTB, I would always dashboard CE BTB because I found it to be so boring and clunky. In my opinion, CE's physics, graphics, sounds, and game play seem extremely outdated, like a mid 90's virtual reality prototype. The vehicles are God awful and the maps are way, way too big for BTB. For me, nothing tops BR start Halo 3. I can understand people's frustration with the AR start games, but don't take it out on Halo 3 or those who enjoy Halo 3. It's not H3 player's fault that MCC is terrible. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

I think it is important to remember that when people talk about CE most of the time they are referring to competitive 2v2. I don't think many people would argue that on a casual level CE multiplayer is superior. ((Especially BTB) (especially if we are talking MCC))
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However, it is an objective fact that Halo CE has a deeper meta, greater skill gap, steeper learning curve, and more competitive merit than halo 3. This is not debatable.

 

It is also fact that halo CE beats every game in the franchise in all of these areas, and halo 3 is among the worst in these areas. These are non-debatable facts.

 

There's no problem with halo 3 being your favorite in the series because you find it to be the most fun. Respect the facts though. Understand why it's frustrating to see people misrepresent the facts (especially when so many of those people are pros- influential people that are supposed to speak for us/the 'competitive community').

Yeah, I'm not saying that Halo 3 has more competitive merit. What I'm saying is that for me, BR start Halo 3 hits the sweet spot for balance, fun, and competitiveness. AR starts and SMG starts are shit, but at the same time I can understand why someone who loves Halo 3 would rather play Standoff AR start over Halo CE. My point is that Halo 3 fans aren't to blame for MCC, 343 is. We may disagree on which Halo's we like, but we can all agree that 343 is responsible for this mess of a game. They could have easily ported the proper versions of the game and multi-game playlists could have been great had they just instituted a way to checkmark which Halo's they are willing to play in each playlist. That would be such a simple thing with today's technology, but not for 343 and their lack of technical skill.

 

I do respect the facts and I respect all OG Halo fans(1-3), just wish people would stop talking so negatively about Halo 3 and those who love the game.

 

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Maybe if people like you didn't QTB everytime a halo came up you didn't like and just played the game, the H3 community wouldn't get shit on so much. No matter how many times standoff ctf appears, I've never QTB, but as soon as anything CE appears the game starts with people betraying and 75% of people quitting. I'd love to get an actual 8v8 waterworks game on H2 with both teams trying to win but it ends up a 5v2 because all the h3 or quit kids.. do just that. I have enjoyed plenty of games of H3 btb, but its a multigame playlist and it'd be nice to be able to play all the games without them being ruined by selfish children.

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Maybe if people like you didn't QTB everytime a halo came up you didn't like and just played the game, the H3 community wouldn't get shit on so much. No matter how many times standoff ctf appears, I've never QTB, but as soon as anything CE appears the game starts with people betraying and 75% of people quitting. I'd love to get an actual 8v8 waterworks game on H2 with both teams trying to win but it ends up a 5v2 because all the h3 or quit kids.. do just that. I have enjoyed plenty of games of H3 btb, but its a multigame playlist and it'd be nice to be able to play all the games without them being ruined by selfish children.

I have pretty much given up playing the mixed playlists as i pretty much never get to play any CE games on them.  Its not that i never play H2/3 but they already have their own dedicated 4v4 lists so i can play them when i want but the mixed list is the only place i can play 4v4 CE and it never happens :(

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I have pretty much given up playing the mixed playlists as i pretty much never get to play any CE games on them. Its not that i never play H2/3 but they already have their own dedicated 4v4 lists so i can play them when i want but the mixed list is the only place i can play 4v4 CE and it never happens :(

Or if it does its on wizard or longest which are horrible for anything other than 1v1s due to their size. I wish they added a veto system like csgo and sc2, so it would search for only people who don't mind playig any or have the same choices as you. That way the people who QTB if they don't get their way can always play their game, and others can find the games they want away from this behaviour. Although the population is far too low at this point. I feel many issues would have been solved if this had been implemented at the start.

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Or if it does its on wizard or longest which are horrible for anything other than 1v1s due to their size. I wish they added a veto system like csgo and sc2, so it would search for only people who don't mind playig any or have the same choices as you. That way the people who QTB if they don't get their way can always play their game, and others can find the games they want away from this behaviour. Although the population is far too low at this point. I feel many issues would have been solved if this had been implemented at the start.

Yeah wizard cant really cope with more than 2 people unless its a 4 player ffa (which is awesome).  I still, to this day, get triggered when i think about the release of CE:A and the inclusion of reach multiplayer.

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Aaaaaaah we've come to a time where H4 is the only playlist I can

 

A) not worry about what weapon I start with

 

B) not worry if my bullets will go straight

 

What is this. Why is this. W H Y

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My point is that Halo 3 fans aren't to blame for MCC, 343 is.

That's never been a contention of mine. I dis on halo 3 praisers because halo 3 is, factually speaking, a trough in the franchise regarding competitive play/game design (while CE is the peak in the franchise). It has nothing to do with MCC- this has always been a fact since halo 3's sandbox team decided to code an RNG into the h3 BR, low values for damage output and range, large values for player acceleration/deceleration, etc...

 

If we ever get another utility weapon as weak and random as the h3 BR, or movement mechanics as sluggish and clunky as h3's, halo 3 praisers deserve all the crap they've received and more.

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A lot of CE people talk shit on here about Halo 3 and people that like Halo 3, but not everyone thinks CE is the best. I'm not afraid to admit that Halo 3 is my favorite and in my opinion the best. I mainly play Big Team because I like the epic nature of the game type. Bigger maps, BR start every game, heavy weapons, vehicles, more players, more strats that can be played out, more 1v1 confrontations. Halo 3 BTB has always hit that sweet spot for me in terms of balance, competitiveness, and fun. When I was playing MCC BTB, I would always dashboard CE BTB because I found it to be so boring and clunky. In my opinion, CE's physics, graphics, sounds, and game play seem extremely outdated, like a mid 90's virtual reality prototype. The vehicles are God awful and the maps are way, way too big for BTB. For me, nothing tops BR start Halo 3. I can understand people's frustration with the AR start games, but don't take it out on Halo 3 or those who enjoy Halo 3. It's not H3 player's fault that MCC is terrible. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

I don't hate the player, I hate Halo 3.

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That's never been a contention of mine. I dis on halo 3 praisers because halo 3 is, factually speaking, a trough in the franchise regarding competitive play/game design (while CE is the peak in the franchise). It has nothing to do with MCC- this has always been a fact since halo 3's sandbox team decided to code an RNG into the h3 BR, low values for damage output and range, large values for player acceleration/deceleration, etc...

 

If we ever get another utility weapon as weak and random as the h3 BR, or movement mechanics as sluggish and clunky as h3's, halo 3 praisers deserve all the crap they've received and more.

its kind of interesting that even as undesirable as the h3 br is, at least you can use it and do reasonably well against other weapons in the sandbox, like no one is running around with an ar beating br users with ease like in the more recent games.

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Maybe if people like you didn't QTB everytime a halo came up you didn't like and just played the game, the H3 community wouldn't get shit on so much. No matter how many times standoff ctf appears, I've never QTB, but as soon as anything CE appears the game starts with people betraying and 75% of people quitting. I'd love to get an actual 8v8 waterworks game on H2 with both teams trying to win but it ends up a 5v2 because all the h3 or quit kids.. do just that. I have enjoyed plenty of games of H3 btb, but its a multigame playlist and it'd be nice to be able to play all the games without them being ruined by selfish children.

It's just a terrible system, which is why I stopped playing this game long ago. I love Halo 3 BTB and I enjoy Halo 2 BTB as well. Why should players be forced to spend time playing a game they don't want to play? Like, I didn't wait 10 minutes plus to find the 1-2 players needed to fill the lobby to suffer through a game of CE or Halo 4. On top of that, if someone QTB during the voting process, it restarts the search for the remaining slots needed to fill the lobby, thanks to 343's own terrible update to the game. Because of these issues and barring a miraculous update, I personally will never play MCC again. I don't have the patience or temperament to deal with the bullshit. The game is broken and the blame falls 100% on 343, not the players who are QTB instead of being forced to play a game they had no intention of playing.

 

It would have been so simple to implement a system where players could checkmark the games they want to or are willing to play in settings, in which case they would only match up with others who are also wanting to play those same games. This would make the game many times better. Again, it's not Halo 3 player's faults that this game is broken, it is 343's.

 

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It would have been so simple to implement a system where players could checkmark the games they want to or are willing to play in settings, in which case they would only match up with others who are also wanting to play those same games. This would make the game many times better. Again, it's not Halo 3 player's faults that this game is broken, it is 343's.

 

I agree this would have been the best system.

Its how maps are picked in comp CSGO, and you get to veto 3 maps in SC2 the same way.

But considering how broken the game is, and the population, it'll never happen.   

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Halo BTB is the goat. If you disagree you're wrong.

 

Halo 3 doubles however, might be the worst in the franchise. I've actually found myself voting Haven doubles over Orbital or Guardian.

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Maybe if people like you didn't QTB everytime a halo came up you didn't like and just played the game, the H3 community wouldn't get shit on so much. No matter how many times standoff ctf appears, I've never QTB, but as soon as anything CE appears the game starts with people betraying and 75% of people quitting. I'd love to get an actual 8v8 waterworks game on H2 with both teams trying to win but it ends up a 5v2 because all the h3 or quit kids.. do just that. I have enjoyed plenty of games of H3 btb, but its a multigame playlist and it'd be nice to be able to play all the games without them being ruined by selfish children.

 

Don't blame fans of specific titles for 343's absolute garbage mechanic that is mixed playlists in ranked matchmaking. I've said it before and I'll say it again: mixed playlists have been a huge contributing factor to fans' negative experience in matchmaking since launch, and are a piss-poor, lazy design decision.

 

We all have a favourite title in the franchise. 343 is forcing players to play a game they don't enjoy for the supposed benefit of "quicker matches". The only thing this design has done is pit different groups of passionate fans against each other in the pre-game screen.

 

It's stupid and if you disagree with me I'll fight you.

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Mixed playlists are poop.  If people sign on to play BTB on H3, why would you expect them not to quit if Halo 1 gets selected?  Because of some moral obligation to satisfy other's desires?  Blaming the users rather than 343 is absurd, as unless you have no job or no life and can just afford to play games all day until you get what you want, most people have limited time to play and want to make the most of the limited time they have, because that's the point of gaming -- to enjoy the experience.  I usually don't have more than 45 minutes a day to play video games because of being an old man with a demanding job, hobbies, etc., so I'm sorry if it ruins your day if I don't give a crap about Halo 1 BTB but you best believe if that's what gets voted I'm going to be betraying everything in my sight until I get booted. If you have a problem with that, contact 343.  

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You are entitled to your opinion that Halo 3 is the most fun game for you to play, BTB is your favorite gametype, etc... That's totally cool.

 

However, it is an objective fact that Halo CE has a deeper meta, greater skill gap, steeper learning curve, and more competitive merit than halo 3. This is not debatable.

 

It is also fact that halo CE beats every game in the franchise in all of these areas, and halo 3 is among the worst in these areas. These are non-debatable facts.

 

There's no problem with halo 3 being your favorite in the series because you find it to be the most fun. Respect the facts though. Understand why it's frustrating to see people misrepresent the facts (especially when so many of those people are pros- influential people that are supposed to speak for us/the 'competitive community').

 

There is nothing about any of those assumptions that are "objective facts".  nothing.  everything about all of this is subjective.

I dont disagree with you.  In my OPINION CE is vastly superior to H3 in all of those areas as well but its not a "non-debatable fact"

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There is nothing about any of those assumptions that are "objective facts". nothing. everything about all of this is subjective.

I dont disagree with you. In my OPINION CE is vastly superior to H3 in all of those areas as well but its not a "non-debatable fact"

Competitive merit/relative skill gap size is 100% objective and can be proven mathematically by analyzing quantitative variables used in the game's code.

 

I just had a long debate on this, it starts somewhere around here: http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/11024-rank-all-halo-multiplayer-experiences-on-1-10-scale/page-14?do=findComment&comment=771376

 

Please read through that and come back with anything that was not covered. Apologies, I simply don't want to write all the same stuff out again.

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Don't blame fans of specific titles for 343's absolute garbage mechanic that is mixed playlists in ranked matchmaking. I've said it before and I'll say it again: mixed playlists have been a huge contributing factor to fans' negative experience in matchmaking since launch, and are a piss-poor, lazy design decision.

 

We all have a favourite title in the franchise. 343 is forcing players to play a game they don't enjoy for the supposed benefit of "quicker matches". The only thing this design has done is pit different groups of passionate fans against each other in the pre-game screen.

 

It's stupid and if you disagree with me I'll fight you.

preach.  I got 'cho back dude. 

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Oh man it's the H3 slander hour again. It's been so long since this happened.

Shame.  H3 should be slandered often to remind people of how garbage it is. 

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Competitive merit/relative skill gap size is 100% objective and can be proven mathematically by analyzing quantitative variables used in the game's code.

 

I just had a long debate on this, it starts somewhere around here: http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/11024-rank-all-halo-multiplayer-experiences-on-1-10-scale/page-14?do=findComment&comment=771376

 

Please read through that and come back with anything that was not covered. Apologies, I simply don't want to write all the same stuff out again.

 

I completely agree that H1 is a more competitive game and has a much larger skill gap, but all I read in those posts were objective differences between Halo 1 and Halo 2 followed by speculation as to why those differences make Halo 1 a more competitive game. Nothing proving that Halo 1 is objectively more competitive.

 

I think H1 has a near perfect balance, and that H2 falls short of that standard, but I still don't think that proves that all the new mechanics introduced in H2 are anti-competitive. As a counter argument to one of the things you mentioned in that thread, Melee Lunge is something I think has lots of potential as a mechanic, but was simply made too easy in H2 and especially H3. As far as I can tell, it's in the exact same category of gameplay mechanics as bullet magnetism in H1. It impacts gameplay by making some mechanic objectively less difficult to achieve. The degree with which a mechanic was made easier is what should be under scrutiny, not just the fact that something was made easier at all.

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I completely agree that H1 is a more competitive game and has a much larger skill gap, but all I read in those posts were objective differences between Halo 1 and Halo 2 followed by speculation as to why those differences make Halo 1 a more competitive game. Nothing proving that Halo 1 is objectively more competitive.

 

I think H1 has a near perfect balance, and that H2 falls short of that standard, but I still don't think that proves that all the new mechanics introduced in H2 are anti-competitive. As a counter argument to one of the things you mentioned in that thread, Melee Lunge is something I think has lots of potential as a mechanic, but was simply made too easy in H2 and especially H3. As far as I can tell, it's in the exact same category of gameplay mechanics as bullet magnetism in H1. It impacts gameplay by making some mechanic objectively less difficult to achieve. The degree with which a mechanic was made easier is what should be under scrutiny, not just the fact that something was made easier at all.

Let's drop the word "competitive" and see if we can all agree on something.

 

I would say that CE objectively has the largest skill gap, from what I've seen. It has a wealth of predictable, exploitable elements that need to be mastered to be able to compete at the highest levels. There's lots of below-the-surface depth in the metagame - stuff that isn't immediately obvious and may need to be learned from outside sources. There are probably other things factors that lend CE its large skill gap, but those are the main ones.

 

To say that CE doesn't objectively have the most competitive merit is to say that a large skill gap does not correlate with a game's competitive merit.

 

Doesn't it?

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I think we should also be more precise as to what we are comparing.

 

Is it individual skill? If so, I think it is quite easy to argue that H1 was more skillful than H2 or H3 (or any later Halo game).

 

Is it about which game is most difficult to master in team play? What team size (2on2/4on4)? And what game modes? Here I feel people are often comparing apples to oranges, implicitly measuring H1 2on2 slayer against H2 4on4 MLG style (slayer+obj). I think that is a bit like comparing apples and oranges.

 

In my view, Halo 1 does FFA, 1on1, and 2on2 Team Slayer better than H2. However, when it comes to MLG style 4on4 gameplay, I think Halo 2 surpasses Halo 1. Most H1 maps were not well adapted to 4on4 objective play, and the spawn system does not shine like it does in 2on2. There are also a few of quality-of-life problems with H1 objective games, such as the missing game clock and weird oddball physics. H2 excelled by putting an emphasis on 4on4 teamplay, with a good pool of maps - also for objective play - and, due to more player, teams, and tournaments, a much more well-developed metagame.

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