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Joseph

Halo Problems

Halo Issues  

274 members have voted

  1. 1. SHOULD SPRINT/FLINCH STAY IN HALO?

    • Yes, both mechanics belong in Halo.
    • Sprint belongs, but Flinch should be taken out.
    • Flinch belongs, but Sprint should be taken out.
    • No, neither mechanic belongs in Halo.


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at its most basic level sprint allows players to switch between at least two mobility states.

 

additional modifiers can turn access of the second state into a limited resource, only permit use while pressing the forward movement input, or trade off defensive capabilities when operating in the maximum mobility state.  these are not the only modifiers available to any sprint system, nor are they all required, but they are examples of ways that sprint systems can be altered to change its impact on gameplay in different ways.

 

sprint can add many things depending on its implementation, but it always centers around introducing an optional quicker level of mobility, and rewarding players who use that system optimally in combination with regular movement.

 

in a game that has only one movement mode, players don't have to consider what mode other players are in when planning their paths or momentarily losing eye-contact, and they don't have to consider when they should shift in or out of each movement mode.

 

It's similar to the difference between a game that has an ammo and/or reload system and a game in which the player has unlimited ammo and no need to reload.  less factors are being considered during gameplay due to the removal of a system, and this changes the flow of gameplay, since the player was originally working within that system to accomplish the same things as without it.

 

It is true that the most popular modern variant of sprint generally works best in games with lower kill-times than the past few halo games, due to the split-second reactions it can necessitate, caused in large part by the defensive trade-off it employs.

 

So to sum up your argument, having multiple levels of mobility enhances gameplay because players are given more situational options and have to be cognizant of what other players are using. 

 

I applaud your effort in creating an argument. Now lets weigh those positives against something like map design (which is just one of the many problems, but it is one that can't be fixed by alterations to sprint). Are these factors enough to sacrifice map design and the speed of the game (which is actually slower with sprint)?

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So to sum up your argument, having multiple levels of mobility enhances gameplay because players are given more situational options and have to be cognizant of what other players are using. 

It changes gameplay.  Whether you consider it an enhancement is down to your personal preference.  There are many people who see the appeal of a shooter that is as little about system management as possible and as much about twitch aiming reflexes as possible, for example.  I updated my post with a hypothetical fix for the issue I bring up in the last paragraph, which I'll repost below.

 

A possible but untested solution would be to remove this [Defensive] trade-off, which would give pursuers an edge over escapees since they could match their speed while firing, exactly like they could in the no-sprint model, as well as allowing the player to retain their ability to react in a timely manner to situations regardless of which mobility mode they are in.

 

However, this change still retains the unique gameplay implications of sprint despite being more in-line with a no-sprint game, including optimal mobility state control.

 

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It changes gameplay.  Whether you consider it an enhancement is down to your personal preference.  There are many people who see the appeal of a shooter that is as little about system management as possible and as much about twitch aiming reflexes as possible, for example.  I updated my post with a hypothetical fix for the issue I bring up in the last paragraph, which I'll repost below.

 

Fine it changes gameplay. I'm not going to argue about "change for the sake of change" right now. And I saw your hypothetical fix. So I'll grant you both points. Now, will you do me the courtesy of answering my question. Is that enough to sacrifice map design? This is strictly opinion based but I am curious as to your opinion.

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Fine it changes gameplay. I'm not going to argue about "change for the sake of change" right now. And I saw your hypothetical fix. So I'll grant you both points. Now, will you do me the courtesy of answering my question. Is that enough to sacrifice map design? This is strictly opinion based but I am curious as to your opinion.

The main issue is that if maps are designed specifically for any one type of mobility system, those wishing to play the same map using the other mobility system will be playing on a map not properly designed to support that variant of the game.

 

Forge is a help, but that is time-consuming and puts the burden on the players, while developers are probably best served not trying to balance a different set of arenas for two fundamentally different types of movement at the same time.

 

Unless there is some crazy master plan up 343's sleeve, one specific type of mobility is going to be the dominant one that the game is designed for.  I wonder which one it will be.  I'm honestly curious.

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The main issue is that if maps are designed specifically for any one type of mobility system, those wishing to play the same map using the other mobility system will be playing on a map not properly designed to support that variant of the game.

 

Forge is a help, but that is time-consuming and puts the burden on the players, while developers are probably best served not trying to balance a different set of arenas for two fundamentally different types of movement at the same time.

 

Unless there is some crazy master plan up 343's sleeve, one specific type of mobility is going to be the dominant one that the game is designed for.  I wonder which one it will be.  I'm honestly curious.

 

Edit: There is no point in continuing to debate past this point. Your opinion is that sprint will be in the next Halo. I am of the opinion that the next Halo is better off without sprint. Lets just leave it at that.

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Edit: There is no point in continuing to debate past this point. Your opinion is that sprint will be in the next Halo. I am of the opinion that the next Halo is better off without sprint. Lets just leave it at that.

that's not my opinion.  my opinion is that I would enjoy whatever approach as long as it's done well.

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Edit: There is no point in continuing to debate past this point. Your opinion is that sprint will be in the next Halo. I am of the opinion that the next Halo is better off without sprint. Lets just leave it at that.

Halo would be better off if sprint were to be disregarded, but that clearly isn't going to happen. The most we can really hope for is it being nerfed to the point of irrelevancy.

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Halo would be better off if sprint were to be disregarded, but that clearly isn't going to happen. The most we can really hope for is it being nerfed to the point of irrelevancy.

 

If sprint were to return, I wish they could just revert it back to being an armor ability as in Reach. Then if there is a playlist without AAs, there would be no sprint. It isn't completely implausible. Halo 4 is the only game with sprint as an innate ability. I really hope they completely forget about everything that was default on the H4 disk.

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If sprint were to return, I wish they could just revert it back to being an armor ability as in Reach. Then if there is a playlist without AAs, there would be no sprint. It isn't completely implausible. Halo 4 is the only game with sprint as an innate ability. I really hope they completely forget about everything that was default on the H4 disk.

You don't think that would be too jarring going from playlist to playlist? Just separates the community too much imo. 

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You don't think that would be too jarring going from playlist to playlist? Just separates the community too much imo. 

That was my biggest complaint about Reach (Well that and Bloom). Too much separation, I'd rather just have a set standard across all MM.

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You don't think that would be too jarring going from playlist to playlist? Just separates the community too much imo. 

 

 

That was my biggest complaint about Reach (Well that and Bloom). Too much separation, I'd rather just have a set standard across all MM.

 

Idk, it all depends on the big picture direction they take. I wish they could go back to map pick ups and equipment rather than default AAs. Then it wouldn't be as jarring to remove it in a playlist since everyone would spawn with the same innate traits. 

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Idk, it all depends on the big picture direction they take. I wish they could go back to map pick ups and equipment rather than default AAs. Then it wouldn't be as jarring to remove it in a playlist since everyone would spawn with the same innate traits. 

I think that if everyone got their own special version of H5 then the :kappa:  version would clearly have the rest of the game tailored to it, diminishing the overall quality of the rest of the game. Basically what happened with H4.

 

I think having a concise set of settings across the board would bring the community together again. Having certain settings with bloom for example just creates more kids who think bloom is a good mechanic or whatever. 

 

We don't really need options. We need a good vanilla. 

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Having sprint with SHIELDS is just a bad idea. Okay in Battlefield and Call of Duty where shots slow you down and kill you in less than a second but in a game where it takes almost an entire clip online to kill someone WITHOUT SPRINT??? (H2/H3)

 

I mean what the fuck Bungie?

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The notion that sprint always adds some huge "tactical" decision to a FPS regardless of mechanics is the problem with the pro-sprint argument for Halo.

 

In Halo battles, sprinting is used as much for running away from battles and making up for mental mistakes, making the risk-reward of using sprint in an Arena-style game with longer kill-times nullified. Another aspect of gameplay that it disrupts is the smooth R+G core gameplay of Halo that used to be a fair battle of skill and wit. Now instead saying to the player "You have to sacrifice your ability to shoot to move at full speed" which is totally counter-productive to the core gameplay of Halo and all Arena FPS games.

 

What we have seen from the result of the addition of sprint as a default mechanic in Halo is not a smarter or more sensible style of gameplay emerge. I dont know how you could argue H4 is a more mental or better feeling game than H1-H3, because its not. What we have seen is the desecration of Arena-style Halo mechanics, game flow, and map design. Increase the default movement speed and look to new intuitive ways to expand movement options/physics.

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The notion that sprint always adds some huge "tactical" decision to a FPS regardless of mechanics is the problem with the pro-sprint argument for Halo.

 

In Halo battles, sprinting is used as much for running away from battles and making up for mental mistakes, making the risk-reward of using sprint in an Arena-style game with longer kill-times nullified. Another aspect of gameplay that it disrupts is the smooth R+G core gameplay of Halo that used to be a fair battle of skill and wit. Now instead saying to the player "You have to sacrifice your ability to shoot to move at full speed" which is totally counter-productive to the core gameplay of Halo and all Arena FPS games.

 

What we have seen from the result of the addition of sprint as a default mechanic in Halo is not a smarter or more sensible style of gameplay emerge. I dont know how you could argue H4 is a more mental or better feeling game than H1-H3, because its not. What we have seen is the desecration of Arena-style Halo mechanics, game flow, and map design. Increase the default movement speed and look to new intuitive ways to expand movement options/physics.

I definitely agree that it doesn't add any tactics that would not be possible with no sprint.  In case you are speaking directly to my post, I don't feel like I ever implied that there.

 

You can do everything you can do with sprint in a non-sprint game.  Sprint just makes doing that same thing more complex.

 

And yeah, the tradeoff as-is really doesn't work for halo.

 

I'm definitely curious about things that expand movement rather than simply adding a system to existing movement.

 

Halo is an interesting game to consider that with, since the focus is on complete freedom of movement/shooting at all times, except when getting into vehicles or turrets. (or when you get unlucky and that damn assassination animation plays out instead of a quick beatdown)

 

Most video games that do interesting things with movement, such as mirror's edge or titanfall, routinely take freedom of movement away from the player so that you're grounded in the physical reality of your character.  Pulling yourself over a ledge doesn't make sense if you can clearly see that you're holding your gun with both hands and look and shoot in all directions while doing it.

 

So I'm curious to hear what your ideas for truly new movement options would be.  I recall base thruster and double jump being suggested in a Randy thread, but there are issues with both those things.  And besides, that's going to get compared to Titanfall.  So what about movement abilities that are entirely based around the base supersoldier: no rockets or grappling hooks, just physical ability.  Do you have any ideas for that?

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So I'm curious to hear what your ideas for truly new movement options would be.  I recall base thruster and double jump being suggested in a Randy thread, but there are issues with both those things.  And besides, that's going to get compared to Titanfall.  So what about movement abilities that are entirely based around the base supersoldier: no rockets or grappling hooks, just physical ability.  Do you have any ideas for that?

 

I have an idea.

 

When you hold down the jump button, you will jump and then land on the ground performing a small tuck and roll. During the roll, you can change the direction you roll similar to the Thruster Pack, but with less power. You can still fire your weapon in the air at an enemy, but you have to wait for the rolling animation to end before firing again in your crouched position you end up in. Simply pressing the jump button will allow you to do the hopping Halo is known for, and you can mix this up with your strafe.

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I have an idea.

 

When you hold down the jump button, you will jump and then land on the ground performing a small tuck and roll. During the roll, you can change the direction you roll similar to the Thruster Pack, but with less power. You can still fire your weapon in the air at an enemy, but you have to wait for the rolling animation to end before firing again in your crouched position you end up in. Simply pressing the jump button will allow you to do the hopping Halo is known for, and you can mix this up with your strafe.

I'm not really sure that adds anything meaningful.  It just give you a weaker thruster with a more complicated way of activating it

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The recent discussion regarding Sprint inspired me to go back and revisit the balancing of that armor ability

 

It actually works really well at 50% duration and 7 second cooldown time

 

You can see an example here:

 

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Sprint in any shape or form is terrible. No matter how much you may try to tweak or balance the mechanic it sucks for Halo. No sprint or die.

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Sprint in any shape or form is terrible. No matter how much you may try to tweak or balance the mechanic it sucks for Halo. No sprint or die.

The only way I could live with sprint is if you have to wait 1minute off spawn to use it, 1minute cooldown, if you're shot you have to wait 30s to use it from that shot, and if ur shot while sprinting you can't even move until 5s.

 

but no sprint is always better

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Some more modified sprint footage:

 

 

 

Edit: I am the single biggest proponent of NS and have been playing it since the launch of Halo 4 due to mods being released weeks before the game actually came out. 

 

The modified sprint is so good that it hardly affects gameplay with the faster kill times.

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Some more modified sprint footage:

 

 

 

Edit: I am the single biggest proponent of NS and have been playing it since the launch of Halo 4 due to mods being released weeks before the game actually came out. 

 

The modified sprint is so good that it hardly affects gameplay with the faster kill times.

that's a good start, but I think sprint needs some additional modifying mechanics beyond this sort of tuning if it is indeed going to be in the next game.

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The modified sprint is so good that it hardly affects gameplay with the faster kill times.

Yes faster minimum kill time, but with the increase in aiming difficulty, does sprint not just mess this up?

 

Key question is why, nobody really asked for this.

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