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Jumprs

Halo 3 1v1 Gameplay #2: Jumprs (w/ insane spawn killing)

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Do you have any idea how much spawn-knowledge, skill, reflexes, experience goes into what he did in this video? Let me put it this way: Even if you tried for weeks, probably months you wouldnt be able to pull this off. And by the way, the jumps he does in this game tell you how good he is. I practiced the S1 S2 jump for 1-2 hours and still cant pull it off. Similar with the bottom mid to camo lift jump. They are very, very difficult (i.e. take a ton of experience and repetition).

 

THEREFOR: ANYONE who CAN do this should be able to and rewarded by the game. People like you are the reason Reach and H4

feature spawn-blocking line of sight, one of the worst and anti-competitive spawn features there could be.

 

 

Open spawns are yet worse in team play. I may be biased here, and for some reason the upper echelon of competitive play could never do BTB, but there is nothing shittier than a sniper being top mid on BTB and sniping people before they can even get cover or move. I at least don't think that part can be argued. 

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Open spawns are yet worse in team play. I may be biased here, and for some reason the upper echelon of competitive play could never do BTB, but there is nothing shittier than a sniper being top mid on BTB and sniping people before they can even get cover or move. I at least don't think that part can be argued. 

 

That guy who got the sniper earned it, either by killing his enemy or beating him to the spawn. If he knows how to control the map then that is knowledge he earned, I don't see a problem with it. If you are playing a team game and you are controlling the other team's side, then spawns are going to be a factor. It takes skill and teamwork to force the other team to spawn somewhere.

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I could always predict where the other guy would spawn but my sniping was similar to that of an epileptic, even if my BR/DMR/Utility fucking weapon could 1v4 another team. Massive props. 

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Nice gameplay and you can definetly tell that you are very good at 1v1s I just dont think its good game mechanics if you get 5 free kills just by winning one battle for sniper. You had to earn every br kill because he could atleast fight back but this looked kind of a more complex octagon with the spawn sniping.

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I never could comprehend how 1v1s on maps like these could be considered legit when this happens. I always thought your punishment for dying in Halo was, well, death. Losing your position and weapons. Not dying over and over. 

 

You are a self-described "Reach fanboy", you think "everybody loved" default Reach, and seem to have convinced yourself that TU Reach is bad. Your opinion on what takes skill and what does not is quite literally invalid. 

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Incredibly impressive yes, but I could spend all day arguing about spawn killing in this thread.

 

Spawn killing is great as long as your partner has complete control of  your spawn. Having predictable trapping in 1v1 is not ideal. I know it takes knowledge and practice but going down 6-0 as a result of losing literally one battle is not good for 1v1 no matter how good the opposing player is. There is no move that lets you take multiple stock in smash, there is no way you could do something like this in CPMA or any other amazing 1v1 game. That's not how cascading advantages should work. There should always be a chance to recover, no matter how slim. This gameplay presented a situation where no recovery was possible for 6+ kills in a row. In a good gametype you should ALWAYS have a chance. There was no chance there.

 

Thank you for your response. All I have to say is that I think random spawns are bad, no matter in what kind of game, 1v1 or team games. It is only logical that my opponent spawns as far from me as possible and in a different spot from which I killed him. Spawn killing like that takes alot of knowledge, which my opponent can learn and do also (I do not have an unfair advantage) The only solution I can think that would suit you is LoS weighting incorporated into the spawn system, which we learned was a bad idea from Reach.

 

I believe that a player should be able to capitalize on his knowledge of the map. Skill isn't just about shooting. I am assuming you know how to force spawns on Halo CE. While you cant shoot them right off the bat you know where they spawn in most instances. I am just using my knowledge here except I get a greater reward, which my opponent also has the chance to earn.  

 

In the greater scheme of things the reward system in H3 is more extreme than most, that is the only way I know how to put it. It isnt unfair, because you have to both engage in a battle, and the better person comes out on top.

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You are a self-described "Reach fanboy", you think "everybody loved" default Reach, and seem to have convinced yourself that TU Reach is bad. Your opinion on what takes skill and what does not is quite literally invalid. 

 

 

The better place to have expressed your opinion on my supposed invalid opinion would have been the threads in which I was talking about Reach. Maybe then when you'd be looking at my posts directly you'd see I didn't actually say those things. So go kick up shit in the right thread, please.

 

I digress though, I'm curious as to how spawn sniping is even different in Reach than it is in H3. Spawn sniping is spawn sniping, in any game. If you can place your crosshair right on a spawn before the person spawns and snipe them before they can absolutely do anything, is pretty bad map design. As cT said, that isn't how cascading advantage in Halo works, and I think that can be applied to any game mode and lobby size. 

 

Player A dies and he loses his positioning and weapons. Player B gets that positioning and weapons and can be on the offensive. Is how the dynamic between dying and killing works in Halo, spawns that can be manipulated like the ones on Guardian are just disgusting because it's completely counter-intuitive to Halo gameplay. 

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Thank you for your response. All I have to say is that I think random spawns are bad, no matter in what kind of game, 1v1 or team games. It is only logical that my opponent spawns as far from me as possible and in a different spot from which I killed him. Spawn killing like that takes alot of knowledge, which my opponent can learn and do also (I do not have an unfair advantage) The only solution I can think that would suit you is LoS weighting incorporated into the spawn system, which we learned was a bad idea from Reach.

 

I believe that a player should be able to capitalize on his knowledge of the map. Skill isn't just about shooting. I am assuming you know how to force spawns on Halo CE. While you cant shoot them right off the bat you know where they spawn in most instances. I am just using my knowledge here except I get a greater reward, which my opponent also has the chance to earn.  

 

In the greater scheme of things the reward system in H3 is more extreme than most, that is the only way I know how to put it. It isnt unfair, because you have to both engage in a battle, and the better person comes out on top.

 

I think what he meant is that if you had two players (Lets say ace vs pistola) that could do a spawntrap for all of your sniper ammo they would only nearly win the game only from winning the battle for snipe.

If ace wins the first battle he is now up 11-0 and there is no difference between him playing against pistola or his dog/grandma/whatever until hes out of sniper ammo. It very nearly becomes a best of 1 kill just because the spawn system doesnt work for 1v1s.

To me this line of thinking is also why rockets do not work in a 1v1. You dont have enough distractions for the rocket wielder to ever not get 4 kills with the rockets if the players are of equal skill - all for a single battle he won.

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Now this is what learning and mastering a map and spawn influences is all about.

This is very close to CE in certain regards. Too bad it's online, Halo 3 in general, etc.

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Incredibly impressive yes, but I could spend all day arguing about spawn killing in this thread.

 

Spawn killing is great as long as your partner has complete control of  your spawn. Having predictable trapping in 1v1 is not ideal. I know it takes knowledge and practice but going down 6-0 as a result of losing literally one battle is not good for 1v1 no matter how good the opposing player is. There is no move that lets you take multiple stock in smash, there is no way you could do something like this in CPMA or any other amazing 1v1 game. That's not how cascading advantages should work. There should always be a chance to recover, no matter how slim. This gameplay presented a situation where no recovery was possible for 6+ kills in a row. In a good gametype you should ALWAYS have a chance. There was no chance there.

This is how I feel about it. I think there is huge practice and skill that goes into it and I have infinite respect for it, but at the same time, it's overpowering how you get punished with death over and over for a single death in a 1v1.

 

It's a whole different ball game in team games, but here, there's just nothing he could have done. You can see the disadvantage in Octagon 1v1s, it's a huge issue in peer to peer hosting.

 

If the host spawn snipes you, you cannot even move or crouch to avoid it because of the fact that he sees you before you even spawn on your own screen and unless you hit the input miliseconds before the game can support it (E.G. jumping before even spawning), the host's side will not receive it in time.

 

It wouldn't be "as much" of an issue on dedicated servers. You have to consider the fact that he runs out of grenades at some point and he has to leave himself in a position where he can get more if he wants to remain in control. It is a risk / reward situation as he places himself in an open and predictable position to get the spawn kill.

 

So it is skillful, but it is a bit too punishing as it is. When there's nothing at all the opponent can even TRY, it's pointless.

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This is how I feel about it. I think there is huge practice and skill that goes into it and I have infinite respect for it, but at the same time, it's overpowering how you get punished with death over and over for a single death in a 1v1.

 

It's a whole different ball game in team games, but here, there's just nothing he could have done. You can see the disadvantage in Octagon 1v1s, it's a huge issue in peer to peer hosting.

 

If the host spawn snipes you, you cannot even move or crouch to avoid it because of the fact that he sees you before you even spawn on your own screen and unless you hit the input miliseconds before the game can support it (E.G. jumping before even spawning), the host's side will not receive it in time.

 

It wouldn't be "as much" of an issue on dedicated servers. You have to consider the fact that he runs out of grenades at some point and he has to leave himself in a position where he can get more if he wants to remain in control. It is a risk / reward situation as he places himself in an open and predictable position to get the spawn kill.

 

So it is skillful, but it is a bit too punishing as it is. When there's nothing at all the opponent can even TRY, it's pointless.

 

I agree. It is skillful and extremely punishing to the other player, but at the same time it isn't unfair.

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This video is the culmination of skill, years of metagame, and a map with shitty spawns. It definitely took a lot of skill to do what Jumprs did, undeniably. But should it be a valid skill set?

 

It depends really. If the spawns can be influenced in a manner close to the CE 2v2 system, then I would give a shaky yes. But in a 1v1? No. In a 1v1 (drawing a few fundamentals from Quake here), if one player kills the other, the winner should be rewarded with total safety for a few brief seconds, better control of the map, and possibly whatever weapons the loser had. The loser loses his weapons, loses control of the map, and has to start from the bottom.

 

By the time the players engage each other again, the winner will have regained his shields, and will be on equal ground with the loser, save positioning and weapons. The loser and winner will then face off in another duel, and the rest is up to the winner and loser's skill. Every kill should represent a duel successfully won, not just a successful first engagement. 

 

Now, in 2v2 and 4v4, things can be more "loose", but in a 1v1, this is unacceptable. Spawn trapping is one thing, but downright spawn killing before the loser is allowed input (therefore, its no longer a measure of both player's skill, only the measure of the winners.) should be avoided when creating maps/spawns.

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Ah yes, spawn trapping.

 

Not going to lie, I jumped at those snipes and even went "OOHHHHH" at my computer on the first one, but to be honest spawn trapping isn't fantastic despite taking great knowledge and skill.

 

I suppose the problem comes from the map- not the game, correct me if I am wrong, but the spawns you were using were designed for 4v4, not 1v1?

 

Personally I think the two are so different they should have maps completely separate for them or at least change the spawns- I think games would play so much better.

I'm fine with spawn trapping in 4v4 due to the extra teamwork and difficulty there is in it, making it more skilful.

It's also much easier to come back. 

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Ah yes, spawn trapping.

 

Not going to lie, I jumped at those snipes and even went "OOHHHHH" at my computer on the first one, but to be honest spawn trapping isn't fantastic despite taking great knowledge and skill.

 

I suppose the problem comes from the map- not the game, correct me if I am wrong, but the spawns you were using were designed for 4v4, not 1v1?

 

Personally I think the two are so different they should have maps completely separate for them or at least change the spawns- I think games would play so much better.

I'm fine with spawn trapping in 4v4 due to the extra teamwork and difficulty there is in it, making it more skilful.

It's also much easier to come back. 

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

Spawn trapping in 4v4's is actually alot easier than 1v1's. I do it quite alot, and have gotten multiple exterminations due to how the same spawn point is used repetitively in 4v4's when teams are respawning until an extermination occurs in said spawn. Spawn  killing in Halo 3 1v1's cannot bet fixed, everything just works too logically to fix it. You can try placing spawns in hidden spots, but if that spot is naded it will force them to spawn in a different spot that might not be hidden (for instance I naded bottom gold and force spawned him top).

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Thanks for your reply.

 

Spawn trapping in 4v4's is actually alot easier than 1v1's. I do it quite alot, and have gotten multiple exterminations due to how the same spawn point is used repetitively in 4v4's when teams are respawning until an extermination occurs in said spawn. Spawn  killing in Halo 3 1v1's cannot bet fixed, everything just works too logically to fix it. You can try placing spawns in hidden spots, but if that spot is naded it will force them to spawn in a different spot that might not be hidden (for instance I naded bottom gold and force spawned him top).

I don't believe this is true... I don't see how you'd fix together 2 insta snipes off spawn if the spawns were blue room, blue barrels, blue ramp, shotgun, bottom gold(not the rare spawn one), s1 ramp, and right at green tree.

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I don't believe this is true... I don't see how you'd fix together 2 insta snipes off spawn if the spawns were blue room, blue barrels, blue ramp, shotgun, bottom gold(not the rare spawn one), s1 ramp, and right at green tree.

Well first you have to understand that spawns work differently with each gametype. If Flag they would keep spawning in

the exact same spawn point until they all die in that spawn (extermination). In Slayer, if a person on the other team is spawn killed there then the rest of their team will not spawn there.

 

Also you can spawn kill blue room from camo nades. You can spawn kill s1 ramp (s2 elbow) by jumping into a spot on top mid. Blue ramp isn't a spawn, I believe you mean bottom blue, which they can be spawn killed at if I am camo nades. Anyways, these spawns do not occur if you know how to prevent them.

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Well first you have to understand that spawns work differently with each gametype. If Flag they would keep spawning in

the exact same spawn point until they all die in that spawn (extermination). In Slayer, if a person on the other team is spawn killed there then the rest of their team will not spawn there.

 

Also you can spawn kill blue room from camo nades. You can spawn kill s1 ramp (s2 elbow) by jumping into a spot on top mid. Blue ramp isn't a spawn, I believe you mean bottom blue, which they can be spawn killed at if I am camo nades. Anyways, these spawns do not occur if you know how to prevent them.

-.-

 

I meant those are the only spawns after the initial spawn, I'm not talking about existing spawns for the most part.

 

blue room would spawn where the solar fare does.

blue barrels would be barrels but you cant see it from camo

bottom gold would be under br spawn and under carbine? spawn.

green tree would be under bubble shield spawn by the lift.

s1 ramp would be where mauler spawns but closer to the wall

shotgun spawn is obviously anywhere in shotgun hallway.

and blue ramp is pretty much anywhere on the ramp.

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