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Smash Brothers Documentary Discussion

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U forgot Ghost aka the savior AKA one of the most important dudes in Halo circa now.

I was hoping Ghost would be a big part of the whole documentary actually, considering he has been here for almost all of it.

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Its sort of a huge project to undertake - would probably take atleast a year if not longer to complete

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There are a lot of good ideas here as to how the structure of the documentary should be constructed, but after looking at them all I really like Enders "rough draft" if you will. I think the best would be to highlight all the halo games and their competitive scenes in separate episodes with the overall theme being how the game has changed and transformed from CE to H4, and what we as a community are hoping to see with H5.

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Also if this doc did come to fruition maybe instead of olayers having specific episodes we can do it by Top teams? Not sure how to do it tho

It would probably be better to approach in chunks chronologically as naturally that's how the ebb and flow of player changes / team prominence comes about and there's more leeway to discuss individual moments in time. Take the transition between games or a moment with massive overall impact (like TD / Classic Xbox malfunction) it would be much more impactful to approach it from all sides there and then rather than building it up from an individual perspective in one episode then repeat it over again in others.

 

Overall it's a nice idea but I feel with a set motive you'd ruin a lot of what would make the piece great. In order to serve that set narrative there would have to be a lot of manipulation which IMO would be obvious (especially to the community) and more importantly a disservice to the great times that have been had. Halo 3 for example; yeah it was shitty purely from a mechanics perspective but that's not what people remember or how people want to remember it.

 

If it's going to get made, do it properly and do it for the right reasons. 

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It would probably be better to approach in chunks chronologically as naturally that's how the ebb and flow of player changes / team prominence comes about and there's more leeway to discuss individual moments in time. Take the transition between games or a moment with massive overall impact (like TD / Classic Xbox malfunction) it would be much more impactful to approach it from all sides there and then than to build it up in one episode then repeat it over again in others.

 

Overall it's a nice idea but I feel with a set motive you'd ruin a lot of what would make the piece great. In order to serve that set narrative there would have to be a lot of manipulation which IMO would be obvious and more importantly a disservice to the great times that have been had. Halo 3 for example; yeah it was shitty purely from a mechanics perspective but that's not what people remember or how people want to remember it.

 

If it's going to get made, do it properly and do it for the right reasons. 

 

Agreed. We can all agree though that it would be extremely obvious what happened with Halo's downfall when the pros start talking about how bad Halo Reach and 4 were for the community. A doc that was true to Halo's journey through the competitive scene would show this very clearly..

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If someone plans on making a Halo documentary, I highly advise against trying to just copy and paste from Melee's. It doesn't make much sense to have sections based off of players because as influential as some players were, they never really defined a part of Halo history. You could expand each episode's focus to particular teams instead of players, but that doesn't really work because FB was such a dominating force for so many years that they take up like 50% of the timeline... lol

 

What you should do is divide it by each Halo game's iteration, especially since the evolution (or perhaps devolution) of the Halo series is the whole impetus for the documentary in the first place. For each game, you can give insight into the competitive scene at the time and detail the teams and players who influenced the metagame that way. Idk my Halo history nearly as well as my Melee history, but here's a rough outline:

 

Just saying, the Smash documentary was good because it focused largely on the players rather than the game. If you spend too much time on mechanics and competitive details you'll bore the uninitiated viewer. The smash doc covered the most basic Melee techniques in order to explain why people played it the way they did, and when it covered Brawl it kept it really simple - slower, easier, less technical. That's more or less all you'd need to do in a Halo doc when talking about each sequel. Get the point across without the fine details. A documentary focusing on players, teams, the rise of Halo in MLG would be a lot more interesting.

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I think the difference is Melee is not designed to be an online game. You actually have to get together in person if you want to play. 

 

Sometimes I feel the bulk of our community would rather watch pro teams compete than compete themselves.

 

Regardless, the documentary is fucking awesome. 

 

Bangarang?

 

I+saw+Basco+s+face+and+instantly+recogni

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If someone plans on making a Halo documentary, I highly advise against trying to just copy and paste from Melee's. It doesn't make much sense to have sections based off of players because as influential as some players were, they never really defined a part of Halo history. You could expand each episode's focus to particular teams instead of players, but that doesn't really work because FB was such a dominating force for so many years that they take up like 50% of the timeline... lol

 

What you should do is divide it by each Halo game's iteration, especially since the evolution (or perhaps devolution) of the Halo series is the whole impetus for the documentary in the first place. For each game, you can give insight into the competitive scene at the time and detail the teams and players who influenced the metagame that way. Idk my Halo history nearly as well as my Melee history, but here's a rough outline:

 

Halo 1:

- development goals concerning H1's design (innovative console shooter, etc.)

- explain the basics of the game (the pistol, power weapons, health system, powerups, map design/control)

- pre-MLG competitive scene (if there's anything to even talk about)

- beginnings of MLG (background info about notable players and teams)

- a look towards the future (what people had hoped to see in the sequel to probably the greatest console FPS to date)

 

Halo 2:

- minority dissent among H1 players in reaction to the relatively drastic changes

- overall success of the game due to XBL

- community behavior over XBL (mainly how deplorable everyone was with their newfound anonymity; cheating, trash talking, etc.)

- BR patch making competition feasible

- MLG's continued growth; introducing live streams

- Final Boss dominance continued from CE

- MLG's exposure blowing up with USA TV special

- Carbon's win over FB in '06

- Final Boss reclaiming the title as best in '07

 

Halo 3:

- gameplay mechanics that seriously hindered competitive play (BR spread, slow movement speed, pre-patch melee system, weak map pool)

- the community moves on, MLG continues to grow with huge sponsors

 

Halo Reach:

- loadouts added seemingly to appeal to players of other shooter brands

- MLG's refusal to remove sprint despite widespread agreement that it hurt gameplay

- v7 finally getting a no sprint, no bloom Halo back to the community

- too little, too late; MLG drops Halo

 

Halo 4:

- loadout trend continued from Reach

- sprint not only added in addition to other AAs, but the toggle option from Reach was removed

- camo powerup removed

- flinch replacing getting knocked out of scope

- flagnum replacing the dynamic flag carrying in the previous Halos

 

Summary:

- a look back from H4 to H1 to see how much everything is changed, almost entirely for the worst

- how developers have played a role in Halo's decline

- decline of the overall Halo population outside of the competitive community

- a look to the future with Halo 5; I know everyone wants a feel-good documentary, but any realist will tell you it looks grim

I was debating on outlining it in a similar style as that. It's why I ordered the players in the way I did. It moves chronologically through Halo games. I want to make it more about the competitive scene than Halo's mechanics.

 

Unrelated: We need an interview with Gilbert Arenas  :kappa:

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Just saying, the Smash documentary was good because it focused largely on the players rather than the game. If you spend too much time on mechanics and competitive details you'll bore the uninitiated viewer. The smash doc covered the most basic Melee techniques in order to explain why people played it the way they did, and when it covered Brawl it kept it really simple - slower, easier, less technical. That's more or less all you'd need to do in a Halo doc when talking about each sequel. Get the point across without the fine details. A documentary focusing on players, teams, the rise of Halo in MLG would be a lot more interesting.

^This. I don't want a documentary complaining about how Halo has devolved (at least not the main focus). We have so many great stories in the competitive scene, why not focus on those?

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disclaimer: this is a long post and I know most of you hate that.

 

 

Incredible. First saw the game in person at Dallas '06 ever since then have always been a fan. Also, a Halo one would 100% impossible without the help of MLG and the countless footage they have over the years. We would need people who were there from day 1, Darkmans, BigSauce, Walsh, The Twins, Puckett, TDT. PS. GM. Jownz, Xena. +countless more. Without any of them, it wouldn't represent how it started and how far we've come.

 

 

Please please please listen to him or even get munoz to help. I seriously doubt the accuracy of early on history unless you guys reach out to guys you haven't even heard of. Halo existed before MLG, you should include a bunch of that. Halo50k's the G4 Championships.. Zyos representing the USA multiple times in WCG. You have the AGP tournaments as well, and have tons of great footage out there. 

 

Start with the development. There are early bungie screen shots that show development gameplay that looks different, and you can see the direction they went off with. You can start with the 2000 press release of Halo for Windows and go from there. Talk about how it was originally a single player game that didn't even have multiplayer code until a couple months before it's release. From there, you should focus on what Halo was in depth. A slow paced arena shooter with fast kill times and quick/consistent weapons/powerups on constant timers. Essentially they made a slowed down, console version of quakes' multiplayer (the concept)

 

 

Zyos most likely would not be interested in talking about his history. He's put a lot of it behind him but if you paid him for his time I wouldn't doubt he would talk. Personally he already seemed to be burnt out with video games in general by the time he left. (he's held close to 700 world records in video games)

 

Talk about how Darkman seemed like an untouchable force early on before the competition got stiff. The Ogres 2v2 History, the split and the speculation as to why. How others like Sergio Gintron and Killer N became top players. Team FFA. The Dream Team. The 5 or 7 second Battle Creek Cap, which brings me back to Zyos. Explain how he revolutionized the way people played the games, as he is considered one of the pioneers of creating strategies, set ups, and timing weapons.

 

Get the old footage of early events where people would bring their own CRTV's and play Round Robbin FFA's on an actual round table. Old pics of the Ogre's and Puckett as young teens etc. Get Gandhi's teen fro in there as well. Go through the early Halo 1 events and talk about some of the team changes and mentality that was going on. If I remember correctly, Xena was even around for AGP 3 so reach out and definitely get her perspective on it.

 

This is all just the evolution and the baby phase of Halo. We haven't even broken into Halo 2 yet, as really we're just peaking with Halo 1 MLG. There should be a lot of focus on TDT vs Team Domination. Talk about STK vs Team FFA. Talk about the Chi Town Finals in 2004. Talk about how Zyo's brought 3 relatively unknown players to compete in the finals against the Ogres at Philly 2005. (Cloven, Crazy Eyes, Barf). Talk about how Zyo's would agree to split 1v1 money in the finals before the match started.. sometimes 50/50, sometimes 60/40. People would say it was dumb for a player as skilled as Zyos to give up easy money to relatively unknown players. I remember watching an interview where he says it's all mind games. How the prize money didn't matter as much because he knew he was confident he was going to win, so instead he would offer to split it hoping to throw the other player off their game knowing whether they try their ass off or fail, they will still win money.

 

 

DEFINITELY include the HIGH SPEED HALO LAN! Perfect for showing the dedication of the fans and the demand of the game. For anyone that doesn't know, two cars are driving on a highway next to each other Lanning Halo CE. They throw an ethernet cable to each other and are driving above 50mph if I remember.

 

This is the tip of the iceberg. If you guys want a video done right you will have to swallow your pride and reach out to more unknown members of the community, or people who are not a part of the community. If a video was done by the current community only, I feel we would miss out on a lot. 

 

edit: way too much history in early halo to only talk about the ogres and walshy. same with Halo 2. Talk about Perfect Storm, the rise of Legit+Naded, plus the fall of other vets like Ramby and Butterz. Include faces that have been around for a while, like mackeo, SK, Soviet etc.

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Had a long conversation with Ghost on the phone about this idea - he knows most of the top players from every era.  Still just an idea but it sounds cool.

 

 

Like you mentioned @@Teapot we will probably have to pay some of these guys for an interview - I could see Zyos being one of those guys easily.  

 

The real question here is - how many of you / people do you think would donate to a kickstarter (and or) indiegogo campaign to get something like this rolling? So much traveling will be involved + we would need equipment + Money to pay some of these guys to share their story more than likely.

 

Akuma mentioned that the Smash community raised a whopping $14,000 dollars to help kickstart that doc.  Do you think the Halo community would even come close to anything like that?  I mean yeah some people on this forum are showing some serious interest - but do you think a doc like this would appeal to people outside of our community enough to the point where they would want to throw a little $ at it?

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It would require a very detailed kickstarter to know where my money is going to. I'd hate to donate to something I feel so passionately about only to realize 99% of the history I mentioned has been excluded and the essence of early Halo CE is tarnished. The early ages of Halo show that we had just as much dedication as smash or other games without internet connections. Or that we had to bring a dumb amount of equipment to tournaments just like some of the early PC tournaments/LANS.

 

 

I've sent e-mails to various organizations throughout the last year in regards to hosting a Halo CE tournament. All together I estimated my total out of pocket cost to be close to $3000 in terms of prize money equipment costs and then the travel fees and hotel fees varied. I'm fucking burnt out from trying to help the halo community only to get NO response time and time again. I feel less passionately about donating my money for a documentary as I do for a Halo CE tournament, but I would still donate to the cause.

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I would recommend doing a Pilot sort of episode. It wouldn't be one of the episodes for the doc but it would essentially create some interest and whatnot for a doc like this.

 

Put a paypal/kick starter link to donate and see how it goes.

 

We aren't getting 14k though, I really don't think that's happening

 

Also Samox mentioned issues for the doc when it came to Kickstarter as they get a 10% profit from it. It's why he started using a paypal for it, you can see what I just said on the last link I posted

 

I would donate around $30-$50 personally

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I would recommend doing a Pilot sort of episode. It wouldn't be one of the episodes for the doc but it would essentially create some interest and whatnot for a doc like this.

 

Put a paypal/kick starter link to donate and see how it goes.

 

We aren't getting 14k though, I really don't think that's happening

 

Also Samox mentioned issues for the doc when it came to Kickstarter as they get a 10% profit from it. It's why he started using a paypal for it, you can see what I just said on the last link I posted

 

I would donate around $30-$50 personally

This. A trailer is 100% needed. Would have to come up with reward benefits. Also should talk to Sundance about what he thinks considering MLG will be a big part of this documentary. I will donate and help anyway that I can.

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We aren't getting 14k though, I really don't think that's happening

 

Also Samox mentioned issues for the doc when it came to Kickstarter as they get a 10% profit from it. It's why he started using a paypal for it, you can see what I just said on the last link I posted

 

I would donate around $30-$50 personally

Yeh that's about the amount I'd give.

Do you not think? You'd only need around ~1k backers without any major acts of generosity and that's over the entire competitive scene past and present.

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Do you not think? You'd only need around ~1k backers without any major acts of generosity and that's over the entire competitive scene past and present.

 

 

And you think there are currently 1,000 people still interested in halo that are either old enough or willing to donate money? Personally, the way I've always seen it was that everyone loves the idea, but nobody helps. That's always how it works.

 

I will donate a minimum of $100, but if different packages call for different things, we will see.

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Do you not think? You'd only need around ~1k backers without any major acts of generosity and that's over the entire competitive scene past and present.

Melee doc didn't even have a lot of donations from the $30-$50 range. You think Halo can do better when it comes to that range?

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I would love to be a part of a competitive Halo documentary.  I would like to do more than just donate money though.  Many of the newer players don't know of any competitive Halo besides MLG; when in fact, before MLG got big there were a few other leagues and tournaments in the Halo CE scene.  You had AGP, Halo50k, Halo Nationals, and WCG just to name a few.  You could make a documentary just on the community and tournaments from 2002-2004.

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And you think there are currently 1,000 people still interested in halo that are either old enough or willing to donate money? Personally, the way I've always seen it was that everyone loves the idea, but nobody helps. That's always how it works.

 

I will donate a minimum of $100, but if different packages call for different things, we will see.

I don't think you need to be interested in Halo 4 currently to be interested in a project about Halo's past. Even so, how many people have subbed / donated to Ninja over the last year or so, how many have tuned in or attended an AGL event?

 

As has been said previously, there needs to be proof of quality for people to commit but I don't doubt the numbers are there if you catch peoples imaginations.

 

Melee doc didn't even have a lot of donations from the $30-$50 range. You think Halo can do better when it comes to that range?

$30+ seems reasonable to me but I can't really speak for other people. The way I see it, over the years people have paid a lot more when they were committed to competitive Halo so why wouldn't they want to be a part of something that celebrates that commitment.

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Get sponsors? I bet a Halo documentary such as this would hit between 50-75k views maybe even more on Youtube. How bout a presented by, "MLG" or "Astro Gaming or hell "Dr. Pepper". They could help with alot of funds imo.

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Get sponsors? I bet a Halo documentary such as this would hit between 50-75k views maybe even more on Youtube. How bout a presented by, "MLG" or "Astro Gaming or hell "Dr. Pepper". They could help with alot of funds imo.

Lmao I was in the middle of typing the exact same thing. Halo has had way more sponsors than SSB ever had. What about Iron Gaming?

 

Unrelated: An interview with Nadeshot and Scump could be huge. They both have stated Halo 2 is the best competitive game they have ever played.

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Get sponsors? I bet a Halo documentary such as this would hit between 50-75k views maybe even more on Youtube. How bout a presented by, "MLG" or "Astro Gaming or hell "Dr. Pepper". They could help with alot of funds imo.

 

Psssh. It could seriously get over a million views. Some of ninja's 30 second clips from 6 months ago have 25K views. Most of America already knows what halo is and it has a MUUUUUCH broader audience than SSB.

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I don't think you need to be interested in Halo 4 currently to be interested in a project about Halo's past. Even so, how many people have subbed / donated to Ninja over the last year or so, how many have tuned in or attended an AGL event?

 

As has said previously, there needs to be proof of quality for people to commit but I don't doubt the numbers are there if you catch peoples imaginations.

 

$30+ seems reasonable to me but I can't really speak for other people. The way I see it, over the years people have paid a lot more when they were committed to competitive Halo so why wouldn't they want to be a part of something that celebrates that commitment.

 

If we peaked at 4,000 viewers in AGL twitch, 2000 of them were there to just post kappa Halo is DaD and other mature responses. It may be judging those people too much but if they can't contribute a logical thought, I doubt they would contribute $5.

 

Personally I think a halo kickstarter would be successful, but I see less backers than smash.

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I was debating on outlining it in a similar style as that. It's why I ordered the players in the way I did. It moves chronologically through Halo games. I want to make it more about the competitive scene than Halo's mechanics.

 

Unrelated: We need an interview with Gilbert Arenas  :kappa:

 

Zyos as well, the guy was a gaming prodigy during his time and kind of the "rivals" of StK+Ogres and a polarizing figure in the community.

 

I think the Halo community has some really interesting personalities and good stories(T2 for example from wigger to gaming icon), it could turn out really good.

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I would recommend doing a Pilot sort of episode. It wouldn't be one of the episodes for the doc but it would essentially create some interest and whatnot for a doc like this.

 

Put a paypal/kick starter link to donate and see how it goes.

 

We aren't getting 14k though, I really don't think that's happening

 

Also Samox mentioned issues for the doc when it came to Kickstarter as they get a 10% profit from it. It's why he started using a paypal for it, you can see what I just said on the last link I posted

 

I would donate around $30-$50 personally

 

I read his issues with Kickstarter - I would still use a "middleman" service simply because it seems more legit and stable rather than "hey send money to my paypal"

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