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Snapfox

For those still doubting the switch to H3

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Please take a minute and erase the concept that we have to stick to current games to keep popularity in comp halo. I want to travel back in time almost exactly a decade ago and look at the competitive scene for Counterstrike. Counterstrike Source was just coming out, and with new releases (much like 343's Halo) there were a lot of bugs and map flaws and general problems with the game. Due to the fact that they had an already working competitive mode on a previous game without controversial bugs and design flaws, they stuck to playing on Counterstrike 1.6 until a few years later when Valve had gotten their act together and patched a lot of the problems that CSS had. Many players did stick with Source in the beginning, however the vast majority of the competitive community stayed loyal to the already working and highly competitive 1.6.

 

Now we can come back to our current time. I'd like to compare Bungie's Halo to 1.6 (excluding Reach) and 343's Halo to Source. 343 obviously has introduced many controversial changes to the competitive side of things, things I'd like to consider much more extreme than the change from 1.6 to Source. For instance Source's changes were for example changes to Dust2, H4's changes are Sprint and descoping. So until 343 (Source) gets it right, the competitive scene can stay with Bungie (1.6) to safely play the game without these controversial issues. This doesn't mean that the competitive scene will abandon 343 altogether, but rather wait for the company to right what's wrong, which may happen in the next title.

 

It's going to be difficult to do because of how long we've waited to do this, but we were almost doing it in Reach, now we're just doing it for real. I can't wait to see how 10k goes, and if it's successful and the community keeps backing it, the transition will happen smoothly.

 

Peace guys.

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AGL 10K is the last halo event, doesn't matter if we have 40k people on H3

Last event confirmed or do they not have the means available for another tournament? Or do you mean last H3 one?

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Last event confirmed or do they not have the means available for another tournament? Or do you mean last H3 one?

 Last halo event, ANY halo game.

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If Bungie is better at making games, I think it's safe to assume we'll all forget about this when Destiny comes out. In terms of competitiveness, there are much more promising shooters than 343's Halo looks like it ever will be at this point.

And before you say that Destiny is not built to be super competitive, CE wasn't either, but look how it turned out. It's still a fact that Bungie knows what Halo fans expect and knows how to balance a game.

I think it's time to stop beating the dead horse. Just give H5 a try if it looks like it's not absolute trash, but other than that, there are and will be better shooters for competitions. It's all about promotion.

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The only flaw in this plan is that Halo 3 is a barely mediocre game in its own right.

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Halo3 will be Dead within the next 2 weeks. 

 

Damn,, I was at least going to give it a month before people jump off the hype band wagon.. 

 

"This too shall pass"

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If Bungie is better at making games, I think it's safe to assume we'll all forget about this when Destiny comes out. In terms of competitiveness, there are much more promising shooters than 343's Halo looks like it ever will be at this point.

 

And before you say that Destiny is not built to be super competitive, CE wasn't either, but look how it turned out. It's still a fact that Bungie knows what Halo fans expect and knows how to balance a game.

 

I think it's time to stop beating the dead horse. Just give H5 a try if it looks like it's not absolute trash, but other than that, there are and will be better shooters for competitions. It's all about promotion.

Not a single shooter revealed at E3 for any platform appears to match the competitiveness of Halo (excluding 4).

 

Bungie still set out to make a competitive game with CE, just not as competitive as the standard for shooters at the time. Destiny is very different from CE in that it seeks to re-define the gaming experience, not change mechanics. As such, don't expect core mechanics to support competitive gameplay. 

 

If Halo 5 doesn't do well, competitive FPS is going to be in trouble. Sure, there are other more competitive shooters available on PC, but none of those games have the potential to bring in as much interest as Halo. While COD is still somewhat competitive, it is still not as entertaining for the viewer as Halo and most of its fanbase shows little interest for competitive gaming.

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And before you say that Destiny is not built to be super competitive, CE wasn't either, but look how it turned out. It's still a fact that Bungie knows what Halo fans expect and knows how to balance a game.

Bungie also made every post-CE Halo title, bar Halo 4.

Don't expect anything competitive to come out of that studio.

 

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My brother just started playing Halo 3 again and is hooked, he said he likes how its simple and how it feels like a sport.  No other games on console do this currently.

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Not a single shooter revealed at E3 for any platform appears to match the competitiveness of Halo (excluding 4).

 

Bungie still set out to make a competitive game with CE, just not as competitive as the standard for shooters at the time. Destiny is very different from CE in that it seeks to re-define the gaming experience, not change mechanics. As such, don't expect core mechanics to support competitive gameplay. 

 

If Halo 5 doesn't do well, competitive FPS is going to be in trouble. Sure, there are other more competitive shooters available on PC, but none of those games have the potential to bring in as much interest as Halo. While COD is still somewhat competitive, it is still not as entertaining for the viewer as Halo and most of its fanbase shows little interest for competitive gaming.

I think it's subjective. We've barely seen anything from Destiny outside from the environments. The based movements look extremely promising, though I'm not a fan of ADS. Builds appear interesting and diverse. 3-man teams seems perfect for the whole concept of having spells and specific abilities.

 

I'll wait until we see more actual gameplay and how they plan on approaching PvP, but I'm very doubtful Bungie will just let everyone who's hoping for something competitive down.

 

Bungie also made every post-CE Halo title, bar Halo 4.

Don't expect anything competitive to come out of that studio.

And I'm pretty sure all their games were also featured on the pro circuit, and not limited to a single pre-release (therefore unreasonably hyped) exhibition event. Up until Reach, Halo kept growing in popularity.

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And I'm pretty sure all their games were also featured on the pro circuit, and not limited to a single pre-release (therefore unreasonably hyped) exhibition event. Up until Reach, Halo kept growing in popularity.

I'm not arguing the popularity of the games. I'm arguing competitive merit. The more time Bungie has with a multiplayer game, the more time they're given to Bungie it up.

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I'm not arguing the popularity of the games. I'm arguing competitive merit. The more time Bungie has with a multiplayer game, the more time they're given to Bungie it up.

In all fairness, for most of the earlier part of Halo 3, we were getting used to AR starts all over the place. Just the fact that we were seeing more BR starts was considered a fair improvement. To most people, the excessive spread wasn't even an issue.

 

They did fix the broken melees, implemented a nice upgrade to the progression system with TUs. While not being Bungie, Reach also evolved a lot leading up to MLG v7, but most of the options needed to fix it where ALREADY in the game. Outside of bloom, the TU didn't affect competitive settings very much. Bleed through was not that big of a deal, it even ended up being reverted after a while in default.

 

Though it's difficult to judge how Bungie would have handled the situation. Can we blame them for not caring at the point where they were as a studio (focusing on Destiny, handing Halo to 343)? 

 

While Bungie does have a tendency not to release perfect products at launch -- and has a difficult player base -- in the past, they've corrected the shot more often than not, and improved the game in major ways via AUs and TUs.

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When is AGL 10k ? After that...everyone is going to BAILOUT from the H3 bandwagon and life will continue normally.

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It's hard to compare the two really, community support of the previous game was circumstantial and the result of a much simpler time:

  • By 2004 Counter-Strike's community was largely 'competitive', even if you only played the game casually the majority accepted and respected the competitive side. With this there is a lot more active knowledge and discussion around the mechanics themselves, many of which were brashly tarnished in the original release of Source (wall banging completely removed, spray patterns simplified, movement physics borked) on top of a number of major bugs. Anything that isn't surface level in your face different is usually lost on the Halo audience so there isn't the same outcry (in numbers not strenght of objection) when the game takes a significant hit in quality.
  • Counter-Strike players were and still are extremely rigid and adverse to any sort of change. Source was not the first time players refused to move on from a previous version, in fact many originally refused to move to Steam in the 1.5 - 1.6 update (myself included) and were eventually forced by the WON-servers shutting down. In contrast, Halo players as a majority automatically accept and celebrate new titles; even though they're drastically different with each release there has never been a backlash with enough weight behind it for people to not 'move on with the times'. On top of a quality concern there was also the hardware consideration where a lot of people with poor hardware simply couldn't move to the next game even if they wanted to (this is still the case).
  • Counter-Strikes competitive infrastructure was based externally with no reliance on MM for finding games, you basically went and 'found' games through agreed means. This cultivates the mentality that you should be playing what you want to play as who in their right mind is going to actively search for matches in a game they don't want to play. This mentality permeates through to the tournament scene where at the time 1.6 had enough support from top teams sponsors in order to make a stance.

Halo in contrast is a largely casual experience with a majority of the population being passive to the process; everyone's going to this game now, everyone's moving onto this console now. The American competitive communities decision to repopulate H3 can't have anywhere near the same impact simply because of the numbers involved. When you think, it doesn't even do anything to really change the mentality of the party involved; players are moving back to Halo 3 because they were guided there with it being announced as a free title, many of whom are using it to pass time until they're guided to the next title.

 

If Halo 5 doesn't do well, competitive FPS is going to be in trouble. Sure, there are other more competitive shooters available on PC, but none of those games have the potential to bring in as much interest as Halo. While COD is still somewhat competitive, it is still not as entertaining for the viewer as Halo and most of its fanbase shows little interest for competitive gaming.

If H5 doesn't do well, competitive FPS will be exactly where it is currently - fine and slowly on the rise. Halo is a popular title but to say it has the potential to outrank any top competitive FPS is unrealistic because there would have to be a complete transform the game and its priorities to do so. If COD is getting 50k concurrent viewer per major event and 100k+ for COD champs is it not doing something right? It's not competitive enough? Fine, follow CSGO that's pushing 50k for their major events and continues to grow, plus it's more difficult than any Halo game has been since CE.

 

New titles that will take an interest in competitive FPS like BF4 / Destiny / Tintanfall have yet to weigh in but with an emphasis on Esports and the new generation of consoles FPS will continue to grow whether Halo is part or not.

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When is AGL 10k ? After that...everyone is going to BAILOUT from the H3 bandwagon and life will continue normally.

November 1-3.

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I honestly didn't like H3 when it was released. But even with all of its flaws, I find it far more enjoyable than H4. Halo 4 will still be very much alive in my life...as a coaster for my coffee mug. 

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 I'm still not convinced Bungie knows how to make a competitive game. The ONI-Team that made Halo CEs Multiplayer were either ahead of their time or just got really lucky imitating quake mechanics in the Halo universe.

 

 Since CE, Bungie only did one thing and that was realize that the majority of their fanbase were addicted little kids/young teens that enjoyed talking shit and progressing through a system that keeps them playing with their friends on a daily basis. If competition was at the forefront of their design mentality, they wouldn't have done a bunch of the "innovations" they did with the following Halos.

 

 Coming from a long career in High-end WoW PvP, I can tell you that casuals control the game and get what they want implemented sooner than the competitive crowd. Designers will give the comp crowd a bone every now and then (WoW Arena in BC/balancing patches), but they soon realize that they just dug their own grave trying to please a community that is largely implacable.

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Comparing CS 1.6 or even Quake 4 to Halo 4 is silly because they still had a thriving tournament life. Halo has one. 

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I think Ogre 2 had a good idea of throwing a Halo 1 LAN.  Similar to smash bros melee where people still throw small tournaments across the US.  They do it because smash is fun.  I think it hurts that the Halo community is spread across all games whereas melee is pretty obviously the most competitive game.

 

Also online gaming has made it hard to appreciate the social aspect which is so crucial, and slowly died when people stopped throwing tournaments outside of MLG.  Also esports has become more of a marketing opportunity for companies where we are not deciding which game to play but the developers/publishers are throwing money in to make people play it competitively.

 

The point I am making I guess is melee would be a better comparison because our best Halo game (CE) is not online like CS 1.6 and we would rather play an inferior game (Halo3,reach,4) for convenience.

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