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TTExoduseli

The Death of Forge World

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Hey guys I was just wondering if the community would be willing to trade forge world to have 5-6 extra multiplayer maps at launch. Forge would be great if had done right however it would seem that the devs at both bungie and 343 used it in order to limited the amount of work they put into making HR/H4 mp maps.What are your thoughts¿

 

 

 

4 small map 2v2-4v4

 

5 medium 4v4

 

6 Large 8v8  

 

3 infection maps (haunted theme)

 

2 grifball courts

 

3 firefight maps

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry APK

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If they had a history of making good maps I'd be all for it.  The map quality has been very inconsistent though.

Also, as long as people continue paying for DLC they have absolutely no incentive to do this.  In fact, it wouldn't make any sense from their perspective at all.  Shipping the game with more maps = less money down the line for them most likely.  I'm not saying I agree with that perspective, but I'd imagine that's how the people who make those decisions would look at it.

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I don't think that was the case at all. Forge world/maps are just another tool to the community. It helped spark creativity and expanded on an already diverse list of custom games. I'd like to see a return of forge focused maps, along with quality MP maps. You can have both, it's not a one or the other type of situation.

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No.. Why would you remove one of the best aspects added to Halo, and people enjoy what it offers. Forge is fun, creative, and allows you to have more choices and the chance to design your own map layouts and you are not forced to buy useless DLC

 

Forge has nothing to do with developers making terrible maps of their own, they simply fail to understand map design. They design their maps using the wrong methods and scaling as well as base everything around Sprint, AA's, now and that has nothing at all to do with Forge and its existence in Halo.

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I wouldnt do it. I really think Forge World esque things should remain a part of future installments.

 

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If we could be sure the maps we got were all going to be great maps, i'd say yes. But i just cannot trust them to make that many maps and have them all be playable. 

 

They just need to keep improving forge. With Halo 5 being on the Xbox one, and the xbox one being more powerful, i see no reason we shouldn't get a much improved forge in H5 capable of making not just unique and fun maps, But aesthetically pleasing maps as well.

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Lol. Get rid of forge and trust Kynan Pearson to deliver us good maps.

 

Yeah.... no

Did you know Kynan left 343?

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Did you know Kynan left 343?

Kevin Franklin's now in charge of making maps, too.  :kappa:

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Did you know Kynan left 343?

 

Lol. You shouldn't have said anything. That supports my point even more.

 

Kevin Franklin's now in charge of making maps, too. :kappa:

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Thanks for your opinion guys,was just thinking that 343 could have higher some of the top communtiy forge members to work on mp maps,In that way the competive community would have loads great maps on day one.

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Thanks for your opinion guys,was just thinking that 343 could have higher some of the top communtiy forge members to work on mp maps,In that way the competive community would have loads great maps on day one.

Listen, the skillset required to forge a map, is nowhere near the level of actually creating an interior space in a real game engine. There are some forgers who might have the basic skillset to do it, but they are very rare and likely only have an elementary understanding. Not to mention lack of experience.

 

343i would essentially have to first hire these people who have no experience in AAA game design. Then pay for their education or at least training. Then wait for them to get done with that. Then trust them with the primary role in map creation over people who have years of experience in the gaming industry.

 

Forgers know how to make good layouts by moving components around like legos.

 

The issue is that even a child can make a sculpture with legos. But making a real map requires making a sculpture out of marble. Just because you know how to use legos doesn't mean you know how to create a brilliant marble sculpture.

 

Now you may be thinking, "well they could just create rough layouts and have other people make it for them."

 

This is the job of the lead map designer. This means that someone with no experience is taking the highest position of the entire map design department and commanding people who are several years their senior. These people also don't know how the technology in question works so they cannot reasonably oversee or help out the people working under them.

 

A lead map designer should understand the complexities of all parts of the program so that any problems or questions can be answered and deadlines can be met. A lead designer needs to know how long it will take to model, unwrap, texture, and add collisions to a scene (among other things). They need to understand how low or high poly something needs to be in order to avoid overtaxing the engine. They need to know how to effectivly use normal maps to make lower poly things look higher poly. They need to know how to efficiently unwrap and pack UVs so that the engine isn't taxed by having to store high res files that are mostly unused space. They need to know how to add collisions in a way that doesn't overtax the engine, and also doesn't allow for glitchy experiences. They need to know how much a certain effect will hinder or optimize a space. They need to know how to program certain elements of a level. They need to understand how and when particle effects are usable and what their limitations are. They need to understand the complexities of lighting. They need to understand how to bake textures in a way that looks believable. They need to fully comprehend the intricacies of any game engine thrown at them on an advanced level. They need to understand how dynamic shadows will or will not effect performance. They need to understand sound design and ambiance. They need to be able to take any question about any of these subjects and be able to tell the person underneath them the answer within a blink of an eye. Knowing all these things is the absolute bare minimum that someone in that position can get away with, and I seriously doubt there are any forgers who fully grasp even 10% of that. Not to mention that there are probably a host of elements that I am not even thinking about when making this list.

 

Furthermore, going back to the lego and marble example. Doing this would be like my nephew making something with legos, and then telling Michalangelo di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni to make that in marble. Then Michalangelo tries to explain that the way it is constructed would break under the weight, but since my nephew doesn't understand why, he cannot fix the concept to make it work.

 

This isn't even factoring in that the team chemistry would be terrible since the lower people would resent the new person for getting the job without having to go through the same shit they went through.

 

It's all nice in theory, but the fact is that people cannot just get dream jobs because they are good at forging. The real world doesn't work like that. With that being said, I would love to see someone who is good at forging get into the industry legitimately and work their way up. I feel there are many forgers who understand how to make a good map far better than Kevin Franklin would be able to, but it is not realistic for them to just be handed some dream job based on their ability to assemble a bunch of blocks together in a nice manner.

 

Maybe a low level advising/concept spot. Something entry level where they will have minimal influence. Even then, most game companies avoid hiring people who are just idea guys with no practical skill. It would be like an auto mechanic hiring someone to manage the crew because they drew a pretty picture of a red convertible in English class one day.

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It would be more beneficial to improve both the multiplayer maps and forge, taking either away would be a step in the wrong direction.  At this point in 343's relatively young career, they need to be looking at the things they've done right and figure out why those things work and the things they've gotten wrong and figure out how to improve those areas.

Getting rid of forge doesn't solve the map issue, only working on the problem can do that.

They've gotten a lot of stuff right with Halo 4 forge (different environment palletes, fixed lighting issues with Forge Island, made more natural pieces/options, extraction lights) but they're is still plenty of room for improvement (messy textures, inconsistently themed pieces, specific object limits, contrasting pieces, pieces with invisible walls/edges, excessive 90 degree angled pieces, etc).

I'm looking forward to seeing how 343 improves Halo 5, with both their maps and forge.  I think Halo 4 was a good learning experience and they're not going to be making a lot of those mistakes again.

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Unless we were guaranteed CE and H2 caliber maps...who am I kidding, of course forge > a few extra maps. Implementing forge shouldn't hinder a developer's ability to design some decent maps. 

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I never got to play CE but i really enjoyed h2/h3 maps

Unless we were guaranteed CE and H2 caliber maps...who am I kidding, of course forge > a few extra maps. Implementing forge shouldn't hinder a developer's ability to design some decent maps. 

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It would be more beneficial to improve both the multiplayer maps and forge, taking either away would be a step in the wrong direction.  At this point in 343's relatively young career, they need to be looking at the things they've done right and figure out why those things work and the things they've gotten wrong and figure out how to improve those areas.

 

Getting rid of forge doesn't solve the map issue, only working on the problem can do that.

 

They've gotten a lot of stuff right with Halo 4 forge (different environment palletes, fixed lighting issues with Forge Island, made more natural pieces/options, extraction lights) but they're is still plenty of room for improvement (messy textures, inconsistently themed pieces, specific object limits, contrasting pieces, pieces with invisible walls/edges, excessive 90 degree angled pieces, etc).

 

I'm looking forward to seeing how 343 improves Halo 5, with both their maps and forge.  I think Halo 4 was a good learning experience and they're not going to be making a lot of those mistakes again.

I also have the feeling that H5 multiplayer will do well

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I personally enjoy H1/H2 maps the best, which didn't have Forge. I think Forge is fine as an added bonus, a map here or there, but since it's been making the base since Reach I find I'm much less connected and entertained with the maps in Halo. I enjoy Dev maps the most, when they're good they connect better with the audience than a Forge map can, just my opinion tho.

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I personally enjoy H1/H2 maps the best, which didn't have Forge. I think Forge is fine as an added bonus, a map here or there, but since it's been making the base since Reach I find I'm much less connected and entertained with the maps in Halo. I enjoy Dev maps the most, when they're good they connect better with the audience than a Forge map can, just my opinion tho.

I agree with all of this.  However, if you are asserting that the Dev maps have gone downhill BECAUSE of forge, then I'd have to strongly disagree.  The people that design multiplayer maps have absolutely nothing to do with designing forge.  It's not like it's one group of people working on both, and any time spent developing forge takes away from time spent on multiplayer maps.  There are separate teams working on each of these aspects.  The quality of the on-disc maps is NOT impacted by anything that's done regarding forge mode.

 

I suppose a person could argue that the resources (people) currently dedicated to working on forge could be re-allocated to assist with map design.  There are a couple of problems with this, in my opinion.  First, these people cannot just be placed anywhere on a team.  They each have special skills that, hypothetically, make them a good fit for a particular area.  A person who is currently working to help develop forge mostly likely could not just be moved over to the level design team and be an effective member of it.  It would require firing the forge team, then hiring additional people to assist with level design.  Also, a strong argument could be made that increasing the number of people working on level design would actually be counterproductive.  Imagine having 15 people baking a cake, versus 1 or 2 people.  The extra people can actually make the end product worse.  A handful of people with a strong vision will often be more effective than a large group of people.

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I agree with all of this.  However, if you are asserting that the Dev maps have gone downhill BECAUSE of forge, then I'd have to strongly disagree.  The people that design multiplayer maps have absolutely nothing to do with designing forge.  It's not like it's one group of people working on both, and any time spent developing forge takes away from time spent on multiplayer maps.  There are separate teams working on each of these aspects.  The quality of the on-disc maps is NOT impacted by anything that's done regarding forge mode.

 

I suppose a person could argue that the resources (people) currently dedicated to working on forge could be re-allocated to assist with map design.  There are a couple of problems with this, in my opinion.  First, these people cannot just be placed anywhere on a team.  They each have special skills that, hypothetically, make them a good fit for a particular area.  A person who is currently working to help develop forge mostly likely could not just be moved over to the level design team and be an effective member of it.  It would require firing the forge team, then hiring additional people to assist with level design.  Also, a strong argument could be made that increasing the number of people working on level design would actually be counterproductive.  Imagine having 15 people baking a cake, versus 1 or 2 people.  The extra people can actually make the end product worse.  A handful of people with a strong vision will often be more effective than a large group of people.

 

To add to this, certain affinity took care of H4's forge separate from 343i. This provides further evidence that forge does not detract from map quality and that the maps are simply worse.

 

Unless Certain affintiy also worked on making disc maps as well. I am not sure about this. I know they worked on a map pack, but I have no idea about on disc maps.

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