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The Great Halo Debate Thread

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The majority of that video was abusing the pistols OP power at close range in ZB DMR start games, and I dont see how coming back from shots happened more(it actually happened less) with the DMR portion of that montage than any H2 montage I linked. I believe that is why the pistol was never included as a starting weapon in comp settings.

 

 I really dont have a huge problem with the Reach ZB DMR even though I would rather see it re-worked so its harder to hit at range, if you included it in Halo 4 it would probably be better than the H4 BR. But you need that BR type-weapon for players use to R+G play-styles and it fufills a necessary role in the Sandbox while offering a slightly different aiming style to master than a single-shot weapon would.

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As for the kill time, it would be fantastic if it was a beautiful 3 shot single shot weapon. However that won't happen and with a 4 or 5 shot weapon, the problem becomes that once you do miss a shot, the kill times become really slow, thus rewarding stupid decisions because players can get away. Whereas with a burst weapon, it's easier...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying here is that because the DMR is harder to use than the BR, players have a harder time punishing others because the gun is hard to use and thus increases kill times.

 

Sorry, but I don't see how spawning players with a weapon that's easier to use would enhance the game's competitive merit. If you can't operate your gun and an opponent goes unpunished because of it, you don't deserve to punish that opponent. This steepens the learning curve and allows individual skill to shine a bit more. When a starting gun is super easy to use, teamwork is somewhat forced since more often than not, an opponent will never be able to fight off more than one person at once since, due to the ease of use of the utility weapon, you can't possibly be that much better at using it than anyone else. The halo CE pistol was nice because it was hard to outshoot a worthy opponent; you aren't bound to the limitations of your starting weapon allowing for more teamwork scenarios. If I'm good enough to take on more than one person, Ivan rush for rockets alone while my other teammates zone the rest of the map or acquire other power items. None of this linear aggression crap.

 

I agree that kill times should be quick, but I don't see how dumbing down the starting weapons so that the minimum kill time and average kill time are equal would do anything but detriment the skill gap. Ideally, minimum kill times would be really short but average kill times would be much higher.

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I think NB DMR is great but mix with the Range of Fire of the BR - and I would be fine

I'm not for or against the BR or DMR /we will probably see both in the next Halo .

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying here is that because the DMR is harder to use than the BR, players have a harder time punishing others because the gun is hard to use and thus increases kill times.

 

Sorry, but I don't see how spawning players with a weapon that's easier to use would enhance the game's competitive merit. If you can't operate your gun and an opponent goes unpunished because of it, you don't deserve to punish that opponent. This steepens the learning curve and allows individual skill to shine a bit more. When a starting gun is super easy to use, teamwork is somewhat forced since more often than not, an opponent will never be able to fight off more than one person at once since, due to the ease of use of the utility weapon, you can't possibly be that much better at using it than anyone else. The halo CE pistol was nice because it was hard to outshoot a worthy opponent; you aren't bound to the limitations of your starting weapon allowing for more teamwork scenarios. If I'm good enough to take on more than one person, Ivan rush for rockets alone while my other teammates zone the rest of the map or acquire other power items. None of this linear aggression crap.

 

I agree that kill times should be quick, but I don't see how dumbing down the starting weapons so that the minimum kill time and average kill time are equal would do anything but detriment the skill gap. Ideally, minimum kill times would be really short but average kill times would be much higher.

 

Agreed on all that, trust me, I was lanning CE 24/7 for a few years in high school. However I'm coming at it from a realistic perspective and that is that we aren't getting a 3 shot weapon ever again in Halo for the primary weapon as you know. So I'm coming at this from an angle that there WILL be sprint Halo 5 and we need a primary weapon that punishes people who put themselves in stupid positions. A single shot weapon all things being equal with the addition of sprint makes the gameplay just incredibly stupid. If there's no sprint, sure, a single shot weapon is awesome. Or if the weapon is 3 shot, it's awesome. CE was more fun than Halo 2  was for me. The H2 online experience was flawless imo but I still considered h2 more business while CE was just fun if you know what I mean. This is all moot though because we know 343i will just leave sprint in there.

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Die is a strong word IMO, when used in this particular scenario. Halo 3 was doing great vs CoD in its prime, and you can argue that CoD was not at its prime then, however I believe H3 (at one point) was beating TWO CoD's on the XBL Activity charts which is a pretty impressive feat. 

 

If Reach had capitalized on Halo 3's success, I say we would have been in a much better position than wer are in now. Reach really wounded the Halo scene, casuals left because it wasn't fun, many players elft simply because there was nothing to play for(no Ranks) and the game strayed too far from what was considered "familiar, classic Halo". 

 

 

The death of Halo has SO MUCH to do with the actual game, if Reach had improved on the faults of Halo 3, CoD may have still have been more popular anyway (seeing as core of CoD is an 'easy to pick up game that features instant gratification' (kill streaks, extremely quick kill times etc), however Halo would not be in the hole that it is now.

 

Halo 3 WAS huge amongst gamers, it was massively popular and was the pinnacle of competitive Halo (MLG viewership, teams attending wise), and it has things that CoD will never have, the unique, fun custom games, the detailed storyline for the Campaign lovers, coupled with the massive amounts of lore for those who enjoy that sort of thing (comics, mega bloks, books etc), the game that really tests you skill over a longer period of time rather than in CoD where it's 'who saw who first.'

 

We've seen the skill gap in recent Halo titles diminish, which is unfortunate, however the spark is still there, Halo still has the potential to become that unique shooter again that everyone used to love. 

 

I wish I could agree, But Halo 3 was already dying by 2010. This was reflected in the competitive scene: 2010 marks a huge drop in attendance number, there even loss of sponsors then. They were hoping things would pick up with Reach which they didn't. COD is just a monolith in popular culture and I do not see things picking up for Halo due to cultural inertia.

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I wish I could agree, But Halo 3 was already dying by 2010. This was reflected in the competitive scene: 2010 marks a huge drop in attendance number, there even loss of sponsors then. They were hoping things would pick up with Reach which they didn't. COD is just a monolith in popular culture and I do not see things picking up for Halo due to cultural inertia.

I still don't see how you say, "the death of Halo has nothing to do with how good the game is" 

 

Nothing?

 

So, by your logic, the next Halo could be better than CE or worse than H4, but it won't matter at all because CoD. That's basically what you're saying.

 

If we get a good title, it may not directly compete with CoD (unless Ghosts fucks up), because we all know how big CoD is right now, but at least Halo could hold its own, have more than a 20k peak population 1 year after launch with a decent LAN scene...

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Yes. What Im saying is this could be better than Halo CE, but a game's popularity is not based on merit. Prime example: COD. It's the face of fps and video games in general. But don't tell me its gameplay is better than H3, Reach...

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This is not direct to your initial question, however a good Ranking system and proper skill based matchmaking is much more important then Spectator mode. Now just because Spectator mode wouldn't be in Halo 5 it doesn't mean Theater can't get better. For instance it would be nice and long overdue to get the POV of everyone (including enemies) in a replay. 

 

For me personally I find it very irritating when people beg for a spectator mode when there are much more precedent issues.

And I fucking agree!

 

My question was just an example, as we should discuss new topics and debates instead of re-opening an old endless debate :) 

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I wish I could agree, But Halo 3 was already dying by 2010. This was reflected in the competitive scene: 2010 marks a huge drop in attendance number, there even loss of sponsors then. They were hoping things would pick up with Reach which they didn't. COD is just a monolith in popular culture and I do not see things picking up for Halo due to cultural inertia.

I'm not sure if you meant the series as a whole or just Halo 3 here, but in all fairness, Halo 3 was averaging around 30-90k concurrent players just before Reach came out, which is outstanding for a 3 year old game which has been overtaken on Xbox Live by a different series (which had also released 3 games since its release). As far as I know, no other console game can make such a claim.

 

So to say it was dying is very unfair and inaccurate.

 

Reach, also had very good numbers for months post-release, despite the expectations that weren't met. Even in December (before Christmas) it was averaging above 600k unique users per day. 

 

Source: http://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post?id=2653401

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COD draws in bigger numbers concurrently than Halo gets in a day. But fine, I wish more than anybody that competitive Halo makes a comeback, and its nice to see that everybody has a pretty optimistic outlook, so forgive me for being a cynic... I just don't want my hopes crushed.

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Yes. What Im saying is this could be better than Halo CE, but a game's popularity is not based on merit. Prime example: COD. It's the face of fps and video games in general. But don't tell me its gameplay is better than H3, Reach...

For the players who like quick kill times and don't want to learn deep strats or grind away at a game for 6 months to become really good at it, CoD's gameplay offers that and does so in a successful fashion. 

 

You can't compare CoD's gameplay to Halo's, they are FPS games but are completely different types of FPS games. 

 

A game's popularity is most certainly based on its merit, Reach failed hard because of what it took away and brought in, it had nothing to do with CoD or any other games. People play Halo for Halo and if they buy a new Halo game that isn't like the previous Halo's that they've come to love (when the developer changes the core formula), they stop playing it and play a different game.

 

Games like CoD may influence the scene in that some gamers may flock to the franchise with the most hype the biggest population or whatever else but at the end of the day, the physical game HAS to keep their core fan base coming back for more, whilst simultaneously luring in the casual crowd too, and that is based on whether or not the game has stayed true to its roots or strayed away from its roots. 

 

 

Btw, please quote me so I know when you reply.

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Should 343 continue to provide TTD when it is consistently the least played playlist? Or should they make it one of the revolving playlists?

 

I say put it out of its misery ... it has become an embarrassment.

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When did you start playing Halo ?

The ZB DMR is much harder to aim though. The only thing going for the BR in regards to skill are the button glitches.

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Why do H2 montages mostly involve BR multi-kills whereas HR montages mostly show-case sniper/DMR clean-up kills if the DMR is more capable of coming back from shots?.

Lets look at v7 for a second.

 

Zealot has a snipe.

Countdown has a snipe.

Nexus has a snipe.

Penance has a snipe.

Battle Canyon has 2 snipes.

Pit has 2 snipes.

Sanc has 2 snipes.

 

All 11 gametypes have at least one sniper on the map.

 

Now in Halo 2:

 

Midship doesn't have a snipe for 4 gametypes and FFA.

Warlock doesn't have a snipe for 2 more gametypes.

 

6/11 gametypes and FFA don't have a snipe on the map. That's one major reason why you see a lot more BR footage in H2 montages.

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H2 BR> H3 BR> H1 Pistol> HR ZB DMR. As Gh057ayame clearly proved in his post in OT of GD, the H1 pistol aims for you with bullet magnetism. The DMR was simply point and shoot with absurd reticule magnetism.

 

This argument is stupid. H2 or H3 BR all the way.

 

Fuckin' noobs.

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H2 BR> H3 BR> H1 Pistol> HR ZB DMR. As Gh057ayame clearly proved in his post in OT of GD, the H1 pistol aims for you with bullet magnetism. The DMR was simply point and shoot with absurd reticule magnetism.

 

This argument is stupid. H2 or H3 BR all the way.

 

Fuckin' noobs.

 

lol

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H2 BR> H3 BR> H1 Pistol> HR ZB DMR. As Gh057ayame clearly proved in his post in OT of GD, the H1 pistol aims for you with bullet magnetism. The DMR was simply point and shoot with absurd reticule magnetism.

 

This argument is stupid. H2 or H3 BR all the way.

 

Fuckin' noobs.

All guns are point and shoot if you want to get technical.

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Take the BR, keep everything the same except reduce it to a single shot and it'll be better for Halo. Honest to god, BR or DMR is not what made Halo shitty.

What if it was made similar to the E3 demo BR? Meaning, the Lightrifle skinned as the BR, but same killtime whether scoped or not, burst fire unscoped with tight spread, single shot scoped, no spread/bloom

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Sometimes I wonder if 343i gave us ZBNS in Reach only to look like to good guys and earn our trust, only to f all of us up with Halo 4. *sigh*

 

Please..no more Projectile BR, I dont want to go back to the nightmare that was Halo 3 online.

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Sometimes I wonder if 343i gave us ZBNS in Reach only to look like to good guys and earn our trust, only to f all of us up with Halo 4. *sigh*

ZB was created by a modder, 343 just took the credit for it, thus creating a nasty PR stunt.

 

It says something when they can't even edit their own game because the code is too shit, nor H3 because it's "legacy tech".

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ZB was created by a modder, 343 just took the credit for it, thus creating a nasty PR stunt.

Source? Interesting if it's true, seems pretty unbelievable though.

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Source? Interesting if it's true, seems pretty unbelievable though.

There was a ZB mod very early on, it might be what he's talking about. But it was nothing like 343's fix; the mod could not be done on a retail console, and did not use the Megalo extensions 343 added in the TU.

 

That's the video I had in mind.

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