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The Great Halo Debate Thread

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On Halo CE there is plenty of 8v8 and higher games on large maps.I don't understand the argument that it doesn't work because It does work, there's a few thousand people still playing that.

 

People say that 3sk is a problem because of how fast you die. That's how fast you CAN die. If aiming is difficult and movement is fast those 12 bullets go fast and before you know it you're reloading outside of the red portal on blood gulch and you're screwed.

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Your opportunity to come back in a fight by using a good strafe and good aim drastically decreases when your opponent can sweep a 3 round burst across your head for what is supposed to be the most difficult part of the kill.

 

This is why I feel like advocates of the BR over a single shot weapon aren't very good at the game. They need to be able to sweep for the headshot. They got frustrated in CE and Reach when they would get turned on and embarrassed, because they likely played H2 first and feel entitled to the kill instead of having to earn it win good aim.

 

You can turn on people in Halo 2 FAR more than you can in Halo 3-Halo 4 so not sure where this statement is coming from. That is why in Walshy's H2 montage and H2 montages in general its mostly BR multi-kills whereas in Ninja's Final Halo Reach montage and practically every HR montage its mostly sniper kills. Because 1v2 scenarios with the primary weapon are far less common. People like the BR because it fits a R+G play-style better than a single-shot weapon does, and last time I checked Halo is an Arena-style shooter.

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You can turn on people in Halo 2 FAR more than you can in Halo 3-Halo 4 so not sure where this statement is coming from. That is why in Walshy's H2 montage and H2 montages in general its mostly BR multi-kills whereas in Ninja's Final Halo Reach montage and practically every HR montage its mostly sniper kills. Because 1v2 scenarios with the primary weapon are far less common. People like the BR because it fits a R+G play-style better than a single-shot weapon does, and last time I checked Halo is an Arena-style shooter.

Is that so?

 

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Spawning with the DMR or Light rifle in BTB = little to no map movement (safe movement)

Load outs can work they just need to be balanced and play tested by high skill players .

 

That issue isn't caused by the accuracy of the weapons though. it's the maps and occasionally the 3x zoom. Bring the zoom back down to 2x and introduce maps that are structurally sound enough to allow both infantry and vehicles to get around and interact comfortably and it all works - just look at Headlong. We played that in Reach yet the DMR was never an issue, but something like Haemorrhage? Yeah, when the map itself doesn't allow reasonable movement options games stagnate.

 

A weapon that shoots straight is not, and never has been the issue. And ideally we'd need to lead shots at range too. As soon as the following line up the movement issue is resolved:

* 2x scope

* Shot leading

* Accurate and powerful gun

* Good maps with intelligently placed movement incentives and lines of sight

 

Either that or you keep the 3x scope and make maps as big as Sandtrap, where engagements can happen over 100 metres away and the difficulty would be retained. But personally I'd prefer the former with 3x zoom weapons like the Light Rifle on the maps in limited numbers to be picked up and used in a supporting role.

 

I guess this answers @@Haemorrhage as well. :)

 

 

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You can turn on people in Halo 2 FAR more than you can in Halo 3-Halo 4 so not sure where this statement is coming from. That is why in Walshy's H2 montage and H2 montages in general its mostly BR multi-kills whereas in Ninja's Final Halo Reach montage and practically every HR montage its mostly sniper kills. Because 1v2 scenarios with the primary weapon are far less common. People like the BR because it fits a R+G play-style better than a single-shot weapon does, and last time I checked Halo is an Arena-style shooter.

 

Could you please direct me to these incidents of getting shot in the back and turning on someone who wasn't completely awful in Halo 2? I have watched...

 

Directory of E:\Misc Video\Game Vids\Halo 2\Montages

 

04/10/2011  09:44 AM    <DIR>          .

04/10/2011  09:44 AM    <DIR>          ..

01/24/2005  09:47 AM        23,343,644 A Giant Elite- Montage 1.wmv

02/09/2005  09:40 AM        71,140,084 A Giant Elite- Montage 2 (vs pros).wmv

12/10/2005  02:40 PM       125,055,210 Ancient Noscope- BullXRape (h2 Montage).wmv

07/02/2006  10:54 PM        38,286,694 Best Montage Moments.wmv

09/04/2005  03:57 PM        94,619,000 BGD Ether- H2 Montage.avi

03/28/2005  11:03 PM        34,822,500 Biggy- H2 Montage pt. 2.mpg

03/14/2005  11:04 PM        31,608,300 Biggy- H2 Montage.mpeg

04/15/2005  02:20 AM        45,381,510 blawblaw- H2 Montage.wmv

03/11/2005  12:56 AM        50,092,096 Bonnie and Clyde- H2 Montage.wmv

09/08/2006  06:25 PM       145,721,680 Braddddddd- H2 Montage.wmv

09/15/2005  03:04 PM        39,450,597 Campaign Montage- Sticky Style 2.mov

06/13/2005  05:28 PM        28,344,682 CasL- H2 Montage (ThatTime).wmv

04/06/2005  10:54 PM        49,712,322 Devin Olsen- H2 Montage pt 3.wmv

03/20/2005  12:37 AM        39,863,416 Devin Olsen- H2 Montage pt. 2.wmv

05/06/2005  07:46 PM        59,577,136 Devin Olsen- H2 montage pt. 4 (OutOfControl).wmv

02/03/2005  12:12 AM        19,758,606 Devin Olsen- H2 Montage.wmv

04/09/2005  01:59 AM        39,297,564 Dislexic- H2 Montage.wmv

01/30/2007  10:44 PM        56,486,268 Eli- Montage 2 Trailer.wmv

04/11/2005  08:51 PM        48,815,288 Envy- H2 Montage.wmv

02/26/2005  01:33 AM         7,282,375 Eyed3a- Illness (H2 Montage).wmv

07/27/2005  03:22 PM         9,107,772 Eyedea- H2 Montage (Illmaculate).wmv

02/24/2005  04:19 PM        23,878,712 F3AR Yogie- H2 Montage.WMV

04/12/2005  03:52 PM        41,874,184 FatalMatt- H2 Montage.wmv

06/03/2010  11:31 PM             2,464 Filelist.txt

04/12/2005  03:31 PM         9,923,960 Genade Sniping Evolved.wmv

04/13/2005  03:11 PM        36,655,528 Gessler- H2 Montage.wmv

12/26/2006  02:52 AM       174,073,709 Gunshot- H2 Montage.wmv

03/09/2005  11:10 PM        16,753,442 HOODZ- H2 Montage.wmv

04/03/2005  10:28 PM        12,960,572 Huntr Killr- H2 Montage.wmv

09/21/2005  10:51 AM        48,684,676 iBonk- H2 Montage.wmv

04/08/2006  02:50 AM       104,881,410 Itwasluck- H2 Montage (5).wmv

11/14/2005  12:03 PM        86,879,630 ItWasLuck- H2 Montage pt 2.wmv

01/01/2007  01:30 PM       146,361,417 ItWasLuck- H2 Montage VI.wmv

04/14/2005  05:11 PM         9,893,132 Itwasluck- H2 Montage.wmv

04/09/2005  12:45 PM        23,423,164 JunkSlayer- H2 Montage.wmv

02/01/2005  11:24 PM        35,358,724 Legolas- Montage.mpg

04/08/2005  06:04 PM        48,968,711 LGD Authority- H2 Montage.wmv

06/21/2005  11:56 PM        10,198,300 LiL Poison- H2 Montage.wmv

11/28/2006  08:31 PM        96,769,046 Midpoint- H2 Montage.wmv

01/07/2006  10:42 PM        37,422,656 Modding Montage.wmv

03/29/2005  09:41 PM        33,646,514 Mr BrOKeN- H2 Montage.wmv

07/26/2005  10:41 AM        59,056,512 Nakamura- H2 Montage (pt 2).wmv

02/18/2005  02:44 AM        34,607,726 Nakamura- H2 Montage.wmv

03/29/2005  01:11 AM        19,071,076 Nexy- H1 and H2 Montage.wmv

04/06/2005  09:50 PM        26,844,142 Nokturnal- H2 Montage pt 1.wmv

04/06/2005  10:13 PM        37,724,618 Nokturnal- H2 Montage pt 2.wmv

04/01/2005  11:11 AM        57,809,732 OGRES- H2 Montage pt 2.wmv

02/13/2005  09:28 PM        53,545,342 OGRES- H2 Montage.wmv

12/30/2006  12:52 AM       144,544,656 Reid18- H2 Montage.wmv

03/16/2005  11:28 AM        80,520,590 Reign of Chaos- H2 Montage.wmv

01/13/2005  04:05 PM        58,175,042 Ripp0n Parody.wmv

12/06/2004  06:17 PM        53,455,274 Ripp0n- H2 Montage.wmv

08/10/2005  12:51 AM        73,399,150 S3X0RC1ST- H2 Montage.wmv

06/20/2005  08:37 PM        58,655,342 SamIam- H2 Montage (3rd).wmv

07/26/2005  11:07 AM        46,111,030 SamIam31- H2 Montage (Bullets).wmv

03/08/2005  06:32 PM        52,536,344 Shook on3 (STR8) - H2 Montage.mpg

09/12/2005  01:59 AM        54,193,264 Shook One- H2 montage pt 2.WMV

09/17/2005  11:11 AM        33,462,446 Smileygirl- H2 Montage (Cheerios).wmv

03/20/2005  11:13 PM        39,420,140 Solarus- Testify (H2 Montage).wmv

01/09/2005  03:53 PM        16,196,556 Speyside- H2 Montage.wmv

08/31/2005  12:01 AM        54,715,088 SWATHalo69- H2 Montage.wmv

07/31/2005  07:29 PM        77,914,908 SyK Hiro- H2 Montage.wmv

12/01/2006  10:24 PM       158,353,445 TalenT- H2 Montage (UnderTheInfluence).wmv

03/26/2005  10:19 AM        24,240,840 The Ghost- H2 Montage.wmv

03/16/2005  10:21 PM        22,191,274 The Spitfire- H2 Montage.wmv

03/16/2005  11:01 PM        65,800,706 TheHaloGod- Dust 2 Dust (H2 Montage).wmv

08/30/2005  03:05 PM        46,969,280 TheHaloGod- H2 montage (untouchable).wmv

11/02/2005  01:54 AM        23,975,516 TheHaloGod- Just Wanna (h2 montage trailer).wmv

06/03/2010  11:34 PM            40,960 Thumbs.db

10/15/2006  12:00 AM        29,742,459 Toxic Euphoria- Insane Br Glitching.wmv

03/11/2005  02:20 AM        23,726,606 TRU7H- 15FPS (H2 Montage).wmv

03/11/2005  04:51 PM        19,054,690 Unknown- H2 Montage.wmv

08/20/2005  11:55 AM        35,947,364 Unknown- Homertage.mov

04/05/2005  03:53 PM        49,572,258 US Klutch- H2 Montage.wmv

01/24/2005  04:38 PM        26,294,808 WaLKa- Blue Fire.wmv

08/27/2005  05:40 PM        63,950,852 Walka- Halo Montage pt 3 TRAILER.mpg

02/23/2005  02:54 PM        25,934,808 WaLKa- STR8Rippin Montage (H2 pt. 2).wmv

02/01/2006  03:36 PM        44,621,932 Walshy Trailer.wmv

08/18/2006  04:24 PM       207,872,503 Walshy- H2 Montage Pt 2.wmv

02/20/2005  03:50 PM        94,663,836 Walshy- H2 Montage.mpg

03/25/2005  02:27 AM        10,541,172 Wolfy- H2 Montage.wmv

06/23/2005  01:31 AM        19,011,180 Xena- H2 Montage (Ownalicious).wmv

              83 File(s)  4,182,209,326 bytes

 

 

....these videos and VoD of pretty much every Halo 2 event, not including the ones I actually attended, and I don't ever recall that happening. Maybe with a doubleshot, but not regular shots turning on another pro after having been shot in the back. I would have remembered it too because that's the kind of thing that I firmly believe pretty much never happens with good people on lan.

 

 

 

Spawning with the DMR or Light rifle in BTB = little to no map movement (safe movement)

 

Have you considered shooting back with the same weapon? That seems to be my solution to this problem that everyone has.

 

This may not be the case for you, but it seems like a lot of people who complain about this choose the BR and then complain that they can't move because everyone else has a Light Rifle or a DMR.

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That issue isn't caused by the accuracy of the weapons though. it's the maps and occasionally the 3x zoom. Bring the zoom back down to 2x and introduce maps that are structurally sound enough to allow both infantry and vehicles to get around and interact comfortably and it all works - just look at Headlong. We played that in Reach yet the DMR was never an issue, but something like Haemorrhage? Yeah, when the map itself doesn't allow reasonable movement options games stagnate.

 

A weapon that shoots straight is not, and never has been the issue. And ideally we'd need to lead shots at range too. As soon as the following line up the movement issue is resolved:

* 2x scope

* Shot leading

* Accurate and powerful gun

* Good maps with intelligently placed movement incentives and lines of sight

 

Either that or you keep the 3x scope and make maps as big as Sandtrap, where engagements can happen over 100 metres away and the difficulty would be retained. But personally I'd prefer the former with 3x zoom weapons like the Light Rifle on the maps in limited numbers to be picked up and used in a supporting role.

 

I guess this answers @@Haemorrhage as well. :)

 

 

You forgot descope.

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You forgot descope.

I assumed that as a given. People have been complaining about the DMR in BTB since Reach, but like cT said, shooting back can usually make enough space to move on all but the most open maps.

 

Getting into the realm of personal opinion here, but I think people who complain about the DMR's accuracy are just too used to Halo 3 BTB where an already inefficient weapon was limited even further by the latency issues and distances involved and vehicles were dominant to the point of Laser control alone often being a deciding factor which I take issue with for two reasons: I believe the starting weapon should allow players on foot to interact with those in vehicles in a meaningful way, which the cumulative damage model in Reach & H4 succeeds at (despite some vehicles having too much or too little health which offsets their balance in competitive matches), and I don't believe that control of a single neutral item on a map with so much other stuff should be so influential. I really dislike the Laser for what it does to ground vehicles - against agile air vehicles like Reach's Banshee it works, but against predictable vehicles it's way too good so that the mere threat of it can allow one team to use their vehicles while denying that same opportunity to their opponents.

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I think I'm reluctant to deal with another projectile based weapon even if we are looking at dedicated servers. I'm sure it will be better but I'm not sold on it until I actually play with it. I wonder if lowering magnetism and auto aim is enough to give the DMR some difficulty of use, while still staying lethal.

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Why?

 

You should publish some psych papers if you can articulate exactly why you feel an emotion in response to a stimulus but I can't tell you exactly. The burst sound or the smoothness of the perfect 4 shot make the BR nice but I'm not sure exactly why the DMR is boring. It just is and as evidenced throughout these forums, most people agree. I'm not saying reach v7 is boring, aside from the horrendous maps, it's not bad. I'm just saying the DMR seems slow while the 3 shot pistol worked perfectly. Maybe there's not enough action for a single shot weapon that takes so long.

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You should publish some psych papers if you can articulate exactly why you feel an emotion in response to a stimulus but I can't tell you exactly. The burst sound or the smoothness of the perfect 4 shot make the BR nice but I'm not sure exactly why the DMR is boring. It just is and as evidenced throughout these forums, most people agree. I'm not saying reach v7 is boring, aside from the horrendous maps, it's not bad. I'm just saying the DMR seems slow while the 3 shot pistol worked perfectly. Maybe there's not enough action for a single shot weapon that takes so long.

 

I think most people just don't like to admit that a burst weapon is easier than a single shot weapon to use.

 

It's been demonstrated times and times over. There's nothing more skillful about the BR than the DMR, nor does it sound better. The BR in H4 sounds like a fucking cricket getting raped by 5 cats at the same time. It's also not harder to stay on target. You don't twitch like a god damn maniac between shots just because you can, as you are using a single shot weaponwhich is something people need to realize.

 

It's also SIGNIFICANTLY easier to hit a headshot with, which is the hardest part of killing an opponent, as the target is smaller. We've all seen (or lived) battles where you think it's in the bag, but the headshot is missed and everything goes wrong from there.

 

A single just shot weapon is just MORE punishing, AKA more skillful to use. If someone doesn't understand how, see below.

 

 

Consider the following example:

 

P1 is using the DMR and P2 is using the BR. Both have equal RoF (1 DMR bullet = 1 full BR burst, same cap). Both are 4sk (BR needs 12 bullets).

 

miss = x

hit = o

P1:    P2:

x        xoo

o       ooo

o       ooo

x        xoo

o       oo(KILL)

 

Random factors aside, there is NO valid explanation or reasoning behind using a burst weapon over a single shot weapon of equal strength and RoF. None. I love the BR, it's an awesome weapon to use, but these are just the facts.

 

Though I agree that the DMR could be a boring weapon. But it was designed to be (bloom). Even with ZB, the kill time was slower than it should be. The RoF needs to be stepped up, or the gun made a 4sk.

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You should publish some psych papers if you can articulate exactly why you feel an emotion in response to a stimulus but I can't tell you exactly. The burst sound or the smoothness of the perfect 4 shot make the BR nice but I'm not sure exactly why the DMR is boring. It just is and as evidenced throughout these forums, most people agree. I'm not saying reach v7 is boring, aside from the horrendous maps, it's not bad. I'm just saying the DMR seems slow while the 3 shot pistol worked perfectly. Maybe there's not enough action for a single shot weapon that takes so long.

So you have a problem with the kill time then, not the DMR?

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Could you please direct me to these incidents of getting shot in the back and turning on someone who wasn't completely awful in Halo 2? I have watched...

 

o

 

Tons of of 1v2/1v3/and 1v4 BR situations in this montage

 

 

Need I say more, the whole montage is showcasing BR skill and kills where he is down in shots and "turns" on the opponent..

 

There are tons of montages of mostly FFA's on Midship of jaro's/killtrocitys/killtacs(ManchesterUtd The Red devil Montage comes to mind) primarily involving the BR on the smallest map in the game.

 

Being fast is just as important as being accurate in Halo 2 due to the versatility of the mechanics and the pace of the game. You could hypthothetically do this in any Halo game, but out-strafing/out maneuvering an opponent shines with H2's fast and tight mechanics. Its not just about what game takes most skill to headshot in unless you are playing SWAT, Halo's battles are not as simple as that and involve more tactics. Sure the Reach DMR takes more skill to head-shot with, but that is about all you can say.

 

Why do H2 montages mostly involve BR multi-kills whereas HR montages mostly show-case sniper/DMR clean-up kills if the DMR is more capable of coming back from shots? Its because its dependent on the game, like I said Unreal and Quake mostly use tracking/projectile weapons and they take the most individual skill to master. In Halo 3 I feel like I have a better chance to come back from shots as well than Reach even if part of that is the innacurracy of the weapon at range and that I have not played much Reach to date.

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Rate-of-fire and field-of-view have a lot to do with the feel of the DMR, it makes it feel alot different overall. The CE Pistol/Magnum as well as a modded Halo 4 3sk Zero Bloom, No Flinch, Magnum are both superior and much more rewarding and funner to use imo. The Halo CE Anniversary Magnum is not bad, but it could use a slight increase in its rate-of-fire, either way a lower aim-assist and bullet-magnetism makes everything feel much better and rewarding when you make a perfect 3sk.

 

Jacking the aim-assist and magnetism levels through the roof in Halo 4 was such a horrible move by 343, even Plasma Grenades will stick themselves for you, its mind blowing.

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That issue isn't caused by the accuracy of the weapons though. it's the maps and occasionally the 3x zoom. Bring the zoom back down to 2x and introduce maps that are structurally sound enough to allow both infantry and vehicles to get around and interact comfortably and it all works - just look at Headlong. We played that in Reach yet the DMR was never an issue, but something like Haemorrhage? Yeah, when the map itself doesn't allow reasonable movement options games stagnate.

 

A weapon that shoots straight is not, and never has been the issue. And ideally we'd need to lead shots at range too. As soon as the following line up the movement issue is resolved:

* 2x scope

* Shot leading

* Accurate and powerful gun

* Good maps with intelligently placed movement incentives and lines of sight

 

Either that or you keep the 3x scope and make maps as big as Sandtrap, where engagements can happen over 100 metres away and the difficulty would be retained. But personally I'd prefer the former with 3x zoom weapons like the Light Rifle on the maps in limited numbers to be picked up and used in a supporting role.

 

I guess this answers @@Haemorrhage as well. :)

 

 

 

I never said it had to do with the accuracy of the guns .

It has to do with many things maps/Zoom on the guns and what not .

But yes i understand what you are saying there's many things that could have been changed

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The BR fills the same role as the LG does in Quake, a close-mid range specialized hit-scan precision weapon, burst or automatic they are similar weapons.Only getting a high LG accuracy rating(>33 percent) is much harder than getting a high BR accuracy rating(I remember seeing pros get 75 percent in some Halo 2 games). Which is probably why the H3 BR happened, instead of making the weapon harder to hit with they resorted to semi-random weapon spread.

Take the BR, keep everything the same except reduce it to a single shot and it'll be better for Halo. Honest to god, BR or DMR is not what made Halo shitty.

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i honestly think that halo 5 has to have no sprint or it will flop... AGAIN

What's debatable? Seriously though, I was really not a fan of no radar and then I started LANing Halo 2, a game without sprint and I LOVE NO RADAR.

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Need I say more, the whole montage is showcasing BR skill and kills where he is down in shots and "turns" on the opponent..

 

There are tons of montages of mostly FFA's on Midship of jaro's/killtrocitys/killtacs(ManchesterUtd The Red devil Montage comes to mind) primarily involving the BR on the smallest map in the game.

 

Being fast is just as important as being accurate in Halo 2 due to the versatility of the mechanics and the pace of the game. You could hypthothetically do this in any Halo game, but out-strafing/out maneuvering an opponent shines with H2's fast and tight mechanics. Its not just about what game takes most skill to headshot in unless you are playing SWAT, Halo's battles are not as simple as that and involve more tactics. Sure the Reach DMR takes more skill to head-shot with, but that is about all you can say.

 

Why do H2 montages mostly involve BR multi-kills whereas HR montages mostly show-case sniper/DMR clean-up kills if the DMR is more capable of coming back from shots? Its because its dependent on the game, like I said Unreal and Quake mostly use tracking/projectile weapons and they take the most individual skill to master. In Halo 3 I feel like I have a better chance to come back from shots as well than Reach even if part of that is the innacurracy of the weapon at range and that I have not played much Reach to date.

 

Okay, so I went ahead and watched Walshy's montage cause I gave you the benefit of the doubt here. I didn't watch gunshots cause I wanted a video where the opponents are all good and the player isn't known for being an online god.

 

ONE TIME did I see a clear comeback from being shot in the back (without RRX), and it was the embarrassment single clip at the end of the montage on Tsquared. That alone shows that he went out of his way to call out T2 because of how ridiculous it was that he couldnt finish the kill. I saw one other one around 4:30 where Saiyan chokes on two shots. That could be construed as turning on someone, sure. But please don't make this sound like it was a common occurrence. To say that that whole montage was full of those is extreme exaggeration. Give me the timestamps if you disagree. This montage was positioning and middy ffa nades/cleanup. Nowhere was there a 2 on 1 that I saw.

 

And the reason that you dont see FFA clips in montages these days is because FFA isnt played at events anymore.  And because people realized a long time ago after the umpteenth Middy 'jaro that they are mostly just cleanup kills and are not necessarily indicators of godly skill.

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Meh... not my point.

 

For example: Which one should be a must, and in case we can only have one due time or resources, which one would be the most beneficial for the community/game and why? Maybe this question between Clan Support/SpectMode is kinda obvious, who knows, but we can do these with lots of features, things or elements that can benefit or not the next game or did/didn't do things correctly in previous games.

 

That type of questions, we don't have to always compare everything negatively, we can discuss and have different types of debates without being a "main issue" or "main topic" like No-Sprint vs Sprint or Br vs DMR.

 

Thread to discuss and debate, we shouldn't not waste it on topics that we've discussed and talked from months ago. imo.

This is not direct to your initial question, however a good Ranking system and proper skill based matchmaking is much more important then Spectator mode. Now just because Spectator mode wouldn't be in Halo 5 it doesn't mean Theater can't get better. For instance it would be nice and long overdue to get the POV of everyone (including enemies) in a replay. 

 

For me personally I find it very irritating when people beg for a spectator mode when there are much more precedent issues.

Those are other people. To be honest, I don't really care about ranks. At least not before good weapons, good strafe, descope, spectator mode, and good maps/a way to make good maps.

As mentioned above, ranks and proper skill-based matchmaking system >>>>> Spectator mode. I agree on the rest though.

 

 I believe the starting weapon should allow players on foot to interact with those in vehicles in a meaningful way, which the cumulative damage model in Reach & H4 succeeds at (despite some vehicles having too much or too little health which offsets their balance in competitive matches), and I don't believe that control of a single neutral item on a map with so much other stuff should be so influential. I really dislike the Laser for what it does to ground vehicles - against agile air vehicles like Reach's Banshee it works, but against predictable vehicles it's way too good so that the mere threat of it can allow one team to use their vehicles while denying that same opportunity to their opponents.

Yes I too enjoy damage to vehicles which stacks. I found it to be one of the nice things in Halo 4. Good counter to vehicles. Gives you hope that the Banshee will eventually fucking burn to the ground :)

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Okay, so I went ahead and watched Walshy's montage cause I gave you the benefit of the doubt here. I didn't watch gunshots cause I wanted a video where the opponents are all good and the player isn't known for being an online god.

 

ONE TIME did I see a clear comeback from being shot in the back (without RRX), and it was the embarrassment single clip at the end of the montage on Tsquared. That alone shows that he went out of his way to call out T2 because of how ridiculous it was that he couldnt finish the kill. I saw one other one around 4:30 where Saiyan chokes on two shots. That could be construed as turning on someone, sure. But please don't make this sound like it was a common occurrence. To say that that whole montage was full of those is extreme exaggeration. Give me the timestamps if you disagree. This montage was positioning and middy ffa nades/cleanup. Nowhere was there a 2 on 1 that I saw.

 

And the reason that you dont see FFA clips in montages these days is because FFA isnt played at events anymore.  And because people realized a long time ago after the umpteenth Middy 'jaro that they are mostly just cleanup kills and are not necessarily indicators of godly skill.

 

So the enemy has to have his back completely turned to him to count as a turn? You are putting words in my mouth I never said the montage was "full. of them" rather its WAY easier to take on multiple opponents in H2 than the game in question if your good.  it shows the variety in ways in which you can come back from shots in H2, you act like the BR makes that harder and I disagreed and showed proof. The point still stands if the DMR is more capable of coming back from shots/multi-kills than the BR than why is that not reflected in montages whereas H2 montages are primary BR multi-kills?

 

Show me the DMR jaro's/killtrocities in FFA if its so easy. Really a pointless discussion because load-outs will probably exist in the next Halo, lets just hope they give us good versions of the weapons at launch this time so we can use multiple primaries.

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So you have a problem with the kill time then, not the DMR?

 

As I already said, it's just a boring weapon. That's subjective.

 

As for the kill time, it would be fantastic if it was a beautiful 3 shot single shot weapon. However that won't happen and with a 4 or 5 shot weapon, the problem becomes that once you do miss a shot, the kill times become really slow, thus rewarding stupid decisions because players can get away. Whereas as burst weapon, it's easier to punish people for stupid decisions. The argument isn't simply about 1v1 scenarios, it's more complex and fast kill times are necessary in Halo to make the game fun and exciting to watch. Most match making players don't play often enough to have a perfect four shot most of the time thus making a burst weapon maybe better for the masses because it keeps the kill times down and prevents stupid gameplay. 

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NB Reach DMR > Halo 2 BR when it comes to skill.

 

That's a fact. There's really no debating.

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So the enemy has to have his back completely turned to him to count as a turn? You are putting words in my mouth I never said the montage was "full. of them"

 

Um,

 

the whole montage is showcasing BR skill and kills where he is down in shots and "turns" on the opponent..

 

Okay... whatever you say, dude.

 

 

rather its WAY easier to take on multiple opponents in H2 than the game in question if your good.  it shows the variety in ways in which you can come back from shots in H2, you act like the BR makes that harder and I disagreed and showed proof. The point still stands if the DMR is more capable of coming back from shots/multi-kills than the BR than why is that not reflected in montages whereas H2 montages are primary BR multi-kills?

 

Show me the DMR jaro's/killtrocities in FFA if its so easy. Really a pointless discussion because load-outs will probably exist in the next Halo, lets just hope they give us good versions of the weapons at launch this time so we can use multiple primaries.

 

I already answered the FFA thing, but you seem to already have your mind made up. Had there been open maps like middy in Halo reach and you would have seen all the same stuff.

 

As for turning and killing someone in a Halo game that is not Halo CE, I saw it more times in this brief video than in any other Halo video I've ever seen. ZB pistol and DMR were fantastic weapons, although there was still considerable autoatim on the DMR.

 

 

Obviously opponents were not guaranteed to be of the same quality, but the speed with which you can kill someone has everything to do with this discussion.

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