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The Great Halo Debate Thread

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Good ideas Randy and Hard Way, I would much prefer either route compared to what we are currently going through and dealing with when it comes to Halo 4. A weapon as powerful as the Binary Rifle needs a drawback to it, or a real skill gap associated with its use, and limiting the weapon to 1 shot per clip would help immensely.

 

I feel the same in regard to the Magnum and Rifles as well, they each need unique qualities and more differences in how they operate and feel for certain.

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Four different ways to handle explosive weapons are:

 

-fire - Rocket Launcher

-charge then fire - Railgun

-drop then detonate - c4

-fire then control - Unreal Redeemer secondary fire

 

And this still leaves all the variables like damage, radius, projectile speed, and secondary effect open for modification.

 

As for the Binary Rifle, if there was going to be a 1sk to the body Sniper it should at least require a charge time before firing to offset that dumb-easy power.

You forgot GL.

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True, but the to3/4 games that are evenly matched that you get once in a blue moon in reach are intense. It's scary to think of how v7 comp matches would kick the shit out of h3 if it had ranks, cos apparently- that and 50k+ prize pools are the only things that make gaylo players give a shit. 

Yeah, it's incredibly fun when you get an evenly matched game on v7 Reach, it's so much fun to actually shoot at someone, knowing that if your aim is better, you WILL win that battle, it makes it so much more satisfying, and helps motivate people to actually get better if they want to do well with the NB DMR. 

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What is wrong with the current settings?  They are perfectly fine.  People thinking that Pit TS, Narrows TS, Amp TS, Construct TS, and Ons CTF are perfectly fine is one of the reasons why I left the community in the first place; everyone's standards were so low I didn't think we would ever get a set of gametypes that would maximize the skill gap. Also, reading that you want to add Ghost town, Isolation, Blackout and Citadel just makes me want to cry, why would you take out maps/gametypes that work just fine for those maps? They actually don't. Did you read my explanation discounting Pit TS' objective competitive merit? I'll post it again for you... The Pit is bisected by a giant wall which leaves a few choke points as the means to going from one side of the map to the other. Since the only two power positions on the map are located directly across from each other, the dominant strategy (which we've seen repeated through out competitive Halo 3's lifespan on MLG) is to grab power items, then wait for the opposing team to push through said choke points. Does this strategy sound like it takes much skill to execute? Furthermore, does a map having only one dominant strategy for TS sound like it would play slayer well at a high level? Pit TS being a comparatively poor gametype for top tier competition is a fact for these reasons.  

I can provide explanations as to why Narrows TS, Amp TS, Ons CTF, and Construct TS have little objective competitive merit if you'd like

 Did you ever play Isolation Hill in the early days? I did, it was available until v3 It is awful, Why, because you don't think it's fun? That's subjective, Iso hill has more objective competitive merit than 45% of v8 Blackout with all the missing jumps is also very poor, Not ideal, but it would be objectivley a better alternative than 45% of the current settings as are Ghost town and Assembly. Why? Because you never played them? And Onslaught CTF plays poorly, really? It's posts like these that make me lose faith in the community. Part of the reason Halo is dead is because everybody's standards are so low. You think an extremely simplistic 2-base map plays CTF at a high level? Yea, soooo many strategies are available for a map designed that way...

 
 

The rest of the community? Uhh, I'm not seeing anyone, as I've already said, no one else apart from you are wanting a v9. I understand that most don't realize the benefit of implementing a v9, it's part of the reason why I'm discussing this at all Before 343 gave us the "Legacy Tech" excuse, several of us hypothetically made our own v9's, because let's be honest, a bit of variety to the MLG playlist isn't that bad, assuming the gametypes are good, or we could even have just added more gametypes to the already existing v8. But, after we learned that it couldn't be done, Again, having the playlist be mimic the tournament gametypes 100% isn't necessary.  the rest of us knew that there was nothing that could be done, but it wasn't the end of the world, because v8 is still playable and still solid, unless you're a harsh critic like yourself. Were all the people that left for the same reasons as myself also harsh critics? 

I understand the flaws of v8, I don't think you do... but the game is 6+ years old man, just let it go, Ahh, the "fuck it" mentality I don't know why you're fighting tooth and nail over new settings that will barely be touched, I really don't. I don't think "fighting tooth and nail" accurately describes me taking 5-6 minutes to alt+tab out of my research essay and respond to forum posts. I could be getting much more involved than I currently am. 

 

I also understand H3 wasn't the best Halo game, they dumbed it down to make it more accessible to the casuals, but it still functioned as a Halo game. Again, debatable People still respected the game enough to call it a Halo game, Reach was when the Halo franchise really turned away from its core, H3 still had a lot of the fundamentals of a classic Halo experience, excluding Equipment ofc. And random spread, shots that wouldn't register on LAN, super long kill times which were made longer by the random spread & unregistered shots, a melee system in which both players would die regardless if one clearly melee'd first, sluggish strafing mechanics, aim acceleration, the map design being unsuitable for the consistent ranges of the weapons in the sandbox, etc... I suppose I just have higher standards. 

 

You can't compare 09-10 back when H3 was actually relevant, to now, where the game is pretty much dead and it's just getting revived for one event. The viewership will not dramatically increase if a new v is made, trust me, it won't. I guess we'll never know if this is the universal mentality of the community, even though I listed several benefits earlier...  People just want to watch old pros battle it out on an actual Halo game, I don't, as well as everyone that left the community we've all become too used to the crap that is Reach + H4, our expectations will be low, don't expect people to not watch just because they're playing a standoffy Pit TS. Expect myself, along with everyone else that left with me, to not tune in. 

 

As for your v9 settings, well, that was extremely hard to read. How so? If you created a poll and let the community and pros decide whether they'd want v8 for this upcoming event or v9 with Isolation, a crap version of Lockout, Assembly and Ghost Town, I'm confident that at least 80% would say they'd prefer v8. Unfortunately, people have a hard time overcoming their bias regardless if a change would be objectively beneficial. 

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So how would you guys balance the BR/DMR/Carbine/LR/Pistol? Seems kind of silly that the Pistol is just shit compared to all of them and the DMR/BR dominate. Would you start by removing some of them because they all fulfill basically the same role? Would you keep them but try to define their niche better? Or, maybe something else?

 

BR - remove it.

DMR - remove it.

Carbine - adjust it.

LR - adjust it.

Pistol - adjust it.

 

I'd essentially combine the BR and DMR and take the best aspects of both so we end up with a new rifle:

  • Single shot.
  • 4 shots to kill with the fourth being a headshot.
  • Damage bleeds through shields.
  • 2x scope.
  • Fast rate of fire - ideal kill time should fall between 0.9 and 1.2 seconds if player movement is relatively fast and responsive.

Then for the Carbine I'd let it continue doing what it does best, but as a 6sk and I'd introduce optional automatic fire to it similar to the Needle Rifle & Pistol. It's kill time would be marginally faster than the new rifle.

 

I'd tweak the LR in such a way that it retains its 3x scope and powerful scoped shots (to account for faster kill times overall I'd go for a bleedthrough 3sk when scoped, and a 4sk when unscoped that is only slightly slower than the starting rifle).

 

As for the Magnum, I'd basically bring back the Halo CE Pistol. Also taking into account that it fires explosive rounds I'd have it deal better damage to vehicles than the UNSC rifle I suggested. Thus we could have a good rifle to use as a starting weapon for 4v4 and the Pistol for 2v2s.

 

 

EDIT: Re: H3 v9 - I think that we should look into updating Halo 3's settings if there are to be any further tournaments, but for the initial throwback event v8 will do. The sandbox and arguably map usage in H3's MLG settings was extremely conservative, which in turn makes it less exciting to watch than it could be.

Aside from using Overshield as the only powerup I think that Ghostayame and everyone else who contributed to Team Throwdown did a much better job at implementing the Halo sandbox into competitive play than MLG ever did.

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First things first, you don't need to explain to me how maps play, I have been playing Halo since Halo:CE through to Halo 4, so there really is no need in talking down to me just because I don't have the same opinion as you,

 

Now, whilst you complain about The Pit and Onslaught in particular, you didn't actually explain why you think the maps you are proposing in place of them will play better.  Isolation hill is not a good game type, it never was and never will be. I am interested to see what 'competitive merit' you think it still has even though almost everybody wanted it taking out, but I guess you know better then everybody else.  Ghost town is a poorly constructed map with most of the action inevitable revolving around the central building, making the rest of the map pointless because nobody goes there.

 

You also talk about how Onslaught is very basic, yet you propose Assembly, which is one of the most basic maps I have ever played on, there is nothing 'interesting' about that map and you won't get any amazing strategies on it either.  Blackout is a very bad remake of a very great map, but with most of the jumps missing and the fact you can't nade certain areas (such as the library) it again ruins it and makes it a chore to play, so again can you explain why a broken remake has more 'competitive merit' than the current maps?

 

And, this event is meant to be a throwback event, meaning the settings should represent what everybody used to know and love, not create a brand new batch of settings that we don't know if anybody is actually going to like or not.

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"Again, having the playlist be mimic the tournament gametypes 100% isn't necessary."

 

Don't you realize why people stopped discussing it after we found out 343 couldn't update the playlist? It's because no one cares. You're the only one who cares. No one else is on here asking for v9 settings for a singular event.

 

I don't know why you think I don't understand the flaws of v8, I do, I agree with what you're saying, but there's no point making v9 for one event. I've asked you multiple times to contact pros and Gandhi about v9 yet you haven't, you keep stalling because "you can't do it alone" yet no one else here is asking to help make a v9 because every else is content with a v8.

 

"Expect myself, along with everyone else that left with me, to not tune in. "

 

So, you want to go to the trouble of making v9 settings, along with these non existent people who you claim to want v9 too, yet you won't even support your community by watching the event? Okay...

 

As a final note https://twitter.com/gh057ayame

Read, Eric's timeline and read all of the tweets supporting no v9. 

 

aPk also makes a good point.

 

 https://twitter.com/aPolishKorean/status/397033768600367104

 

Also, http://strawpoll.me/646154/r

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First things first, you don't need to explain to me how maps play, I have been playing Halo since Halo:CE through to Halo 4, so there really is no need in talking down to me just because I don't have the same opinion as you, Competitive merit isn't a matter of opinion. 

 

Now, whilst you complain about The Pit and Onslaught in particular, you didn't actually explain why you think the maps you are proposing in place of them will play better. In all fairness, I did make the disclaimer that the worthiness of those gametypes I listed would be determined upon testing. However, the strategies that teams are required to execute in those proposed maps would require more skill than 45% of what we're currently working with.   Isolation hill is not a good game type, it never was and never will be. First off, I never claimed that any of these gametypes are "good," but rather "better" than what we have. Nothing in Halo 3 will ever be "good" because of the vast amount of inherent flaws programmed into the game design. Isolation Hill required teams to execute multiple set ups whilst controlling power weapons as opposed to grabbing power weapons and waiting for the opposing team to push through the choke points (Pit TS), sitting at top pockets of the map and spawn camping (Narrows TS, not to say that spawn trapping is a bad thing, but there was only one dominant strategy that was rather easy to hold), grabbing power weapons and sitting at the top half of the map waiting for opponents to push through the lifts/choke points (Construct TS). Requiring teams be able to set up in more than just one way is more demanding than only having one dominant strategy that's easy to hold. I am interested to see what 'competitive merit' you think it still has even though almost everybody wanted it taking out, but I guess you know better then everybody else. I can see you're getting upset. Sorry if I've offended you in any way thus far, sincerely has not been my intention. Ghost town is a poorly constructed map with most of the action inevitable revolving around the central building, making the rest of the map pointless because nobody goes there. Which is why I listed Hill as opposed to TS. Ghost Town TS would be awful, no doubt about that. Ghost Town Hill would be a more demanding gametype. 

 

You also talk about how Onslaught is very basic, yet you propose Assembly, which is one of the most basic maps I have ever played on, Assembly is a larger, more dynamic, nearly 4 base map with more movement options than Onslaught, it would require much more from teams than the latter there is nothing 'interesting' about that map and you won't get any amazing strategies on it either. Relative to Onslaught you would Blackout is a very bad remake of a very great map, but with most of the jumps missing and the fact you can't nade certain areas (such as the library) it again ruins it and makes it a chore to play, so again can you explain why a broken remake has more 'competitive merit' than the current maps? Because 45% of the current gametype rotation includes gametypes which only have one dominant strategy that is relatively easy to hold down. Blackout isn't ideal, but when we're using gametypes such as Pit TS, there's nowhere to go but up. There would be more than one dominant strategy on Blackout ball which would be a bit more difficult to hold comparatively.  

 

And, this event is meant to be a throwback event, meaning the settings should represent what everybody used to know and love, Everybody loved the current gametype rotation? Why did so many people leave? not create a brand new batch of settings That's your opinion. Consider the objective benefits on the spectator experience from having more map variety, requiring the pros to play more difficult gametypes, and getting the community involved with v9 testing/discussion

that we don't know if anybody is actually going to like or not. Hence why I've suggested getting the community actively involved in development of v9. 

 

Don't you realize why people stopped discussing it after we found out 343 couldn't update the playlist? It's because no one cares. You're the only one who cares. No one else is on here asking for v9 settings for a singular event. 

 

I don't know why you think I don't understand the flaws of v8, I do, I agree with what you're saying, but there's no point making v9 for one event. I've asked you multiple times to contact pros and Gandhi about v9 yet you haven't, It looks like Ghost is doing it for me you keep stalling because "you can't do it alone" No, it's because I don't care all that much about Halo 3 to really try to get a v9 in the works. You seem to think I'm fighting tooth and nail for v9, when in reality all I'm doing is explaining the benefits of a v9 and how that would be the only way to get someone like myself interested in tuning into the stream. Halo 3 is not Halo, but if we were to try and maximize the skill gap it wouldn't be so bad. It still would be bad, but not as bad as the status quo yet no one else here is asking to help make a v9 because every else is content with a v8. the "fuck it" mentality...

 

So, you want to go to the trouble of making v9 settings, I would contribute if the cause was great enough along with these non existent people who you claim to want v9 too,I never said there were other people in the existing community actively wanting a v9... yet you won't even support your community by watching the event? Okay... This stopped being my community the moment the majority started thinking Halo 3's competitive experience was acceptable

 

As a final note https://twitter.com/gh057ayame

Read, Eric's timeline and read all of the tweets supporting no v9. 

 

aPk also makes a good point.

 

 https://twitter.com/aPolishKorean/status/397033768600367104

 

Also, http://strawpoll.me/646154/r

If a viewer tuned into the stream and saw pros squaring off on Citadel, I don't believe that this would be the incentive for them to tune out. If anything, they would be intrigued by the novelty, assuming we're talking about someone who isn't active in the community and just happens to randomly hear about the event. Besides, it's not like I'm proposing the majority of the current gametype rotation be changed. 

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V9 settings would be nice but it is just not ideal at this point anymore. V8 is good enough and we're lucky if we even get one more event going so why would we change settings that are unfamiliar to the population of people playing H3? Plus not being able to update the playlist means that anyone who is even willing to attend the event (if there is one) is going to have to find people to run custom 8's with and there wouldn't even be a way to get practice in through matchmaking.

 

We're also forgetting that although it is going to be a competitive tournament, the main goal of it is to bring everyone together and make something fun happen. Arguing settings changed for a game that came out in 2007 and will probably have its last event now just seems pointless. Majority seems to be in favor of V8 and we should all try to support it.

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If a viewer tuned into the stream and saw pros squaring off on Citadel, I don't believe that this would be the incentive for them to tune out. If anything, they would be intrigued by the novelty, assuming we're talking about someone who isn't active in the community and just happens to randomly hear about the event. Besides, it's not like I'm proposing the majority of the current gametype rotation be changed. 

Well, it looks like the overwhelming majority don't want a v9, Ghost did what I asked you to so that's that. We're not getting a v9, even if it would be more competitive than v8. You're simply arguing for the sake of arguing now. 

 

If Citadel was on stream, it would actually do the complete opposite of what you just said, the viewer wants to be familiar with the maps that pros are playing on stream, no one wants to tune in and feel alienated because they're playing different maps from when they used to watch H3 back in the days when H3 was extremely popular.

 

I'm done with this debate now, I feel it's been exhausted. I understand *why* you want a v9, and I agree completely, but it's not like an organisation is picking us up for the 2014 season, this is just one throwback event where people are just meant to enjoy playing H3 again. Just let it go. 

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We're also forgetting that although it is going to be a competitive tournament, the main goal of it is to bring everyone together

Would a community driven v9 testing/discussion phase not accomplish this by a greater extent?

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Well, it looks like the overwhelming majority don't want a v9, Ghost did what I asked you to so that's that. We're not getting a v9, even if it would be more competitive than v8. You're simply arguing for the sake of arguing now.

 

If Citadel was on stream, it would actually do the complete opposite of what you just said, the viewer wants to be familiar with the maps that pros are playing on stream, no one wants to tune in and feel alienated because they're playing different maps from when they used to watch H3 back in the days when H3 was extremely popular.

 

I'm done with this debate now, I feel it's been exhausted. I understand *why* you want a v9, and I agree completely, but it's not like an organisation is picking us up for the 2014 season, this is just one throwback event where people are just meant to enjoy playing H3 again. Just let it go.

Sorry that you're getting upset, again sincerely has not been my intention. You need to understand that I'm not taking this as seriously as you think. Perhaps you're simply misinterpreting my tone, which is common on a discussion board.

 

I don't see how anyone would be turned off by swapping out the minority of the gametypes for objectively more competitive gametypes, especially since I'm not proposing complete eradication of any of the maps used in v8 (aside from foundary). I would compare my proposals as more of a tweaked v8 than v9. A complete overhaul may result in alienation, but swapping out the minority of the gametypes, in addition to leaving the base player traits unchanged wouldn't have such an an effect.

 

So again, sorry you got upset because of this debate. It's been nice talking with ya, Sam.

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If a viewer tuned into the stream and saw pros squaring off on Citadel, I don't believe that this would be the incentive for them to tune out. If anything, they would be intrigued by the novelty, assuming we're talking about someone who isn't active in the community and just happens to randomly hear about the event. Besides, it's not like I'm proposing the majority of the current gametype rotation be changed. 

 

Im sorry, but just no.  If people tune into a stream and see something they are not familiar with (map, gametype, etc) They will more than likely tune out.  Keep the settings the same, its a throwback tournament, people want the nostalgia.. Not some team doubles map in the 4v4 rotation that was never played back in the day.

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Would a community driven v9 testing/discussion phase not accomplish this by a greater extent?

No. Everyone argued when Ghost was working with the community to develop v1-5 in H4. Can't see it being any different with a v9 for H3.

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No. Everyone argued when Ghost was working with the community to develop v1-5 in H4. Can't see it being any different with a v9 for H3.

There's a difference between healthy debate and argumentation. I would hope that there would be a lot of debate about v9 settings, but I get what you're saying about halo 4's process. There's a big difference between halo 3 and 4 though, in that we don't have the option to choose more than one starting weapon, most people are fond of halo 3 as opposed to halo 4, v9 discussions wouldn't entail much more than map/gametype discussion as opposed to base player traits, etc...

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Serious question: Are there many people out there who would actually be less familiar with a developer made map such as Citadel than with any forged map? I'd put money on saying that the opposite would be true - your average viewer is not an MLG diehard. An altered variant of Citadel etc would be more recognisable to most than any map made on Foundry or Sandbox. That's just the reality of forge maps in general, and it doesn't mean they shouldn't be used, just that I think the "viewer familiarity" argument is pretty much complete bull for the most part.

 

I also think that almost anyone who comes back to watch a 6 year old game at this point will be watching for the players most of all. What will generate more hype: unknown players playing v8 or old pros playing almost anything else? Personally I know that regardless of the settings I'd only be watching for a select few players, and likely tuning out when they're not playing. Basically, if we're discussing further tournaments then this is worthwhile, but for a single one-off tournament I'd say just let it go.

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I normally would argue that we should test v9 settings, but given our circumstances, I'd have to ask what the point is.

 

While having an online playlist that's identical to competitive settings that we're using might not be "100% necessary", it'd still be super beneficial, wouldn't it? Wouldn't having a playlist like that do more good for the community that having v9 settings would? Yes, settings are very important, but v8 seems to be tolerable at the least and having a player base that can actively participate without having to find customs would be very good at rebuilding our player base.

 

I myself would want to test some change to replace a couple of the gametypes we have in v8, but isn't the reason we're going back to H3 to take advantage of the past success in combination with the game's free release? Yes, we don't need to have a strong online presence to help and H3 netcode sucks anyways, but if we're going to take that approach, then why aren't we considering reviving CE and H2 in addition to H3 and having tournaments will more than just one game?

 

Regardless, I think the real preceding debate that must be settled before v9 settings are discussed is whether or not we want to have tournament settings that are the same as the online playlist settings. And I think the majority opinion on this one is that it'd be better that have settings we can actually play through matchmaking and not just customs.

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Sorry that you're getting upset, again sincerely has not been my intention. You need to understand that I'm not taking this as seriously as you think. Perhaps you're simply misinterpreting my tone, which is common on a discussion board.

 

I don't see how anyone would be turned off by swapping out the minority of the gametypes for objectively more competitive gametypes, especially since I'm not proposing complete eradication of any of the maps used in v8 (aside from foundary). I would compare my proposals as more of a tweaked v8 than v9. A complete overhaul may result in alienation, but swapping out the minority of the gametypes, in addition to leaving the base player traits unchanged wouldn't have such an an effect.

 

So again, sorry you got upset because of this debate. It's been nice taking with ya, Sam.

I said I was done with this debate, but you've left me with no choice to respond a final time, lol. I'm not upset, I just find it funny why you want a v9 for a Throwback event, that's all. I hope you understand why no one wants a v9. 

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There's a difference between healthy debate and argumentation. I would hope that there would be a lot of debate about v9 settings, but I get what you're saying about halo 4's process. There's a big difference between halo 3 and 4 though, in that we don't have the option to choose more than one starting weapon, most people are fond of halo 3 as opposed to halo 4, v9 discussions wouldn't entail much more than map/gametype discussion as opposed to base player traits, etc...

I agree there is a difference, but there's no way to please everyone. If H3 gets consistent tournaments and is sustainable for more than a few random events, then I say we should talk about making a v9. Isn't worth it for one tournament with no possibility to integrate it into matchmaking.

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It doesn't make sense to have v8 on MM and play v9 on customs. 

 

V8 are good enough.

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Also 1 pummel didn't make you 1 shot if I remember correct?! I hate those stupid "oh you surprised me around a corner lets pummel trade" plays that happen sometime in newer halos.

Completely OT, but I got Chrono Trigger yesterday and have been playing it on my Vita. Nice sig

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I said I was done with this debate, but you've left me with no choice to respond a final time, lol. I'm not upset, I just find it funny why you want a v9 for a Throwback event, that's all. I hope you understand why no one wants a v9. 

I can see the opposition to my side. However, I don't think most people are considering the opposition to their side. When asked point blank if you'd like to go through testing phases to get v9 implemented without explaining both sides of the argument, most would probably choose the option which requires less work. 

 

I don't think tweets and polls that only bring in a few hundred people do a very good job of evaluating both sides. 

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