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Ogre 2 the GOAT said bloom > no bloom.

 

 

Ogre 2 won 3 events including the national championships with bloom, I wouldn't want no bloom either if I was in his shoes. ZBNS reach was an entirely different game. Pros will side for settings that give them the best chances of winning majority of the time, legit wanted the 5sk BR for AGL nashville (i think?) instead of making it a 4sk early for the weapon tuning. 

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Ogre 2 won 3 events including the national championships with bloom, I wouldn't want no bloom either if I was in his shoes. ZBNS reach was an entirely different game. Pros will side for settings that give them the best chances of winning majority of the time, legit wanted the 5sk BR for AGL nashville (i think?) instead of making it a 4sk early for the weapon tuning. 

 

This probably explains why Ryanoob thinks Halo Reach is the most competitive Halo, while also hating asyms.

 

@ Logic x: So what is your opinion on what v5 needs? Input is appreciated from an All-Star.

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My 11...

 

TS

-Abandon

-Haven

-Onyx/Orion

-Pitfall

-Skyline

 

CTF

-Adrift

-Onyx

-Pitfall

-Skyline

 

EXT

-Haven

-Station 9/Orion

 

-Personally I feel that 2 Midship maps (Onyx and Simplex) is overkill. Onyx is the more balanced of the 2 IMO, and Simplex is technically Asym if you look at the relationship of red and blue to gold and purple. Besides Simplex has gotten worse over time, the addition of bottom mid really hard it.

-We definetly need another Asym map to go along with Abandon...preferably one that plays TS and EXT. If Orion doesn't work for EXT, I personally love Station 9.

-We're still missing a TS gametype with Static player spawns (ie. Sanctuary, Narrows, Countdown etc...). I never had a problem playing TS Pit in the past, and I'm all for using as many good non-forge maps as possible.

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In one of those public MLG interview, I asked Gandhi how he would like to see H3's settings changed.

 

He said to add in the Power Drainer. lol

Man they are pros! Their opinions has so much more weight than ours!!!

 

Fuck off logic, Ive never seen you at any AGL, every opinion should be heard, just because someone's better than me at holding forward doesn't mean they understand the logistics behind a game.

 

Ryanoob

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VOTING TIME:

 

If Ghost does go the route of Ricochet, he'll be doing 2 CTF's, 2 EXT's, and 2 Ricochets

 

Now it's quite obvious were going to drop Adrift if that is the case, and we'll need Onyx/Simplex Flag (whichever gets chosen) as a non-DLC flag map.

 

 

So here is my question for you all.

 

Vote on the second Flag, and Second Ricochet Spot

 

Flag: 

-Skyline

-Pitfall

 

Ricochet:

-Haven

-Skyline

 

 

Which will it be?

being that haven, skyline, and pitfall are all slayer maps i doubt you would see the same map used for 3 different gametypes or you have reach sanctuary and people get bored bc it is overplayed. So i would guess pitfall flag and then skyline ricochet. But that is assuming haven ts and ext, and skyline ts are all in. and skyline ctf and pitfall ctf are out. 

there are just a lot of options right now. 

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-Personally I feel that 2 Midship maps (Onyx and Simplex) is overkill. Onyx is the more balanced of the 2 IMO, and Simplex is technically Asym if you look at the relationship of red and blue to gold and purple. Besides Simplex has gotten worse over time, the addition of bottom mid really hard it.

Just would like to say that simplex *is not* asymmetrical.

 

 

It is definitely symmetrical in relation to where players spawn.   Same with haven. (well kinda- there are some slight differences that bug me between red and blue side)

 

I mean, by that logic any map that is not doubly symmetrical is asymmetrical.

 

I guess this means that Narrows, midship, and the pit are all asymmetrical too.

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IDK about that one. The minimum is quite close to the average and bumping up the average killtime somewhat would just recreate the useless starting weapon that was the 5sk BR.

 

If anything IMO the minimum should go down a lot and the average should come down, too. IMO shooting for something like .5 minimum and 1.2 average (a second or less average for pros) is optimal (pun intended).

 

Something that I find gets overlooked is that casuals will have longer average killtimes and so will be more adversely affected by things like running away easily (esp. an issue with sprint, since that is what all casuals are playing with outside of lolFlood), inability to work as an individual (leads to frustration with terrible teammates in matchmaking, since that is what even the most experienced FPS players will have when entering the Halo scene), etc, even if they don't notice it. Keeping the game-wide average lower than the H4 BR's will ensure that players entering the game will be more likely to stay, and decreasing the minimum more than the average will increase the aiming skillgap. The length of the average killtime will still keep the game away from feeling like CoD with near instakills.

 

TL;DR Decreasing both the minimum and average killtimes will entice casuals and competitive players without making the game CoD.

I agree with this 100%

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Are the lifts going to get blocked on Skyline?

 

Also I know a lot people hate Dispatch (myself included), but I came up with an idea to make it better. Block the glass in all the rooms. This would encourage map movement and also reward map control better. Not to mention countering the sniper would be way easier now too.

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Don't people think it's time to just get rid of Slayer as a gametype? I understand a lot of people may enjoy playing it, but it's basically just a dumbed down version of the objective gametypes because you are not worrying about the objective but still controlling the power areas and weapons. Especially with Ricochet being a promising gametype, I don't see why we can't have 11 gametypes without TS. Then for the Throwdown playlist you can include TS versions of each map for those that may want to play them or practice their slaying separate from their objective. This will also work to prevent repetitiveness because you won't go from TS to objective on the same map where you are essentially playing the same gametype with just a slight variation.

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Don't people think it's time to just get rid of Slayer as a gametype? I understand a lot of people may enjoy playing it, but it's basically just a dumbed down version of the objective gametypes because you are not worrying about the objective but still controlling the power areas and weapons. Especially with Ricochet being a promising gametype, I don't see why we can't have 11 gametypes without TS. Then for the Throwdown playlist you can include TS versions of each map for those that may want to play them or practice their slaying separate from their objective. This will also work to prevent repetitiveness because you won't go from TS to objective on the same map where you are essentially playing the same gametype with just a slight variation.

I don't know about getting rid of slayer as a gametype. I think slayer is still good at seperating players in a way that objective isn't and it's the easiest gametype for new spectators to understand. Plus slayer feels more neutral than objectives, like it would make a good round three gametype for best of threes if that makes sense.

 

however, I would be all for changing the order of gametypes and the number of slayers. For example what if we added in KotH and had two of every objective and only three slayers? I would like that.

 

Then as I suggested earlier, you only use slayer when the series is tied. Series is 1 to 1? Play a slayer. Series is 2 to 2? Play a slayer.

 

Just spitballing here really. I said earlier that slayer is the easiest gametype for new spectators to get into, but, unless it is a reall close match, I think it can also be one of the more boring gametypes to watch, as a more veteran spectator, especially on maps like Haven which have barely chaged from the beginning.

 

It's definitely worth looking at how we organize or gametypes and how many we run.

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If we get rid of Slayer, Throwdown's population will become pretty much non-existent. Barely anyone plays it as is. If you remove the most popular gametype option, the population would get so low that 343 would probably be forced to remove it.

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IDK about that one. The minimum is quite close to the average and bumping up the average killtime somewhat would just recreate the useless starting weapon that was the 5sk BR.

 

If anything IMO the minimum should go down a lot and the average should come down, too. IMO shooting for something like .5 minimum and 1.2 average (a second or less average for pros) is optimal (pun intended).

 

Something that I find gets overlooked is that casuals will have longer average killtimes and so will be more adversely affected by things like running away easily (esp. an issue with sprint, since that is what all casuals are playing with outside of lolFlood), inability to work as an individual (leads to frustration with terrible teammates in matchmaking, since that is what even the most experienced FPS players will have when entering the Halo scene), etc, even if they don't notice it. Keeping the game-wide average lower than the H4 BR's will ensure that players entering the game will be more likely to stay, and decreasing the minimum more than the average will increase the aiming skillgap. The length of the average killtime will still keep the game away from feeling like CoD with near instakills.

 

TL;DR Decreasing both the minimum and average killtimes will entice casuals and competitive players without making the game CoD.

 

I forgot all about this post when you made it. I meant to respond but forgot completely.

 

By saying that the H4 BR currently has a decent kill time I meant that purely in comparison to every other game in the series. CE is the closest to optimal we have, but Halo 4's BR is faster to get a perfect 4 shot kill (random variable notwithstanding) than every other primary weapon in the series (ignoring double/quadshots in Halo 2 for now) except the Pistol.

 

I absolutely agree that the utility weapon should be more difficult and more rewarding as a result with an average kill time closer to the current best kill time, but purely in terms of kill time affecting game pace H4 gives us a faster weapon than Halo 3, Reach, and Halo 2 until glitches are involved. That's all I meant by my statement, I never intended for it to be taken as me saying that the Halo 4 BR is unequivocally good for the game.

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I forgot all about this post when you made it. I meant to respond but forgot completely.

 

By saying that the H4 BR currently has a decent kill time I meant that purely in comparison to every other game in the series. CE is the closest to optimal we have, but Halo 4's BR is faster to get a perfect 4 shot kill (random variable notwithstanding) than every other primary weapon in the series (ignoring double/quadshots in Halo 2 for now) except the Pistol.

 

I absolutely agree that the utility weapon should be more difficult and more rewarding as a result with an average kill time closer to the current best kill time, but purely in terms of kill time affecting game pace H4 gives us a faster weapon than Halo 3, Reach, and Halo 2 until glitches are involved. That's all I meant by my statement, I never intended for it to be taken as me saying that the Halo 4 BR is unequivocally good for the game.

What about the Light Rifle (zoomed)? I know it had a faster kill time back when the BR was a 5-shot, but I didn't play H4 until after the update. I'm assuming the BR shot faster when it was a 5sk because otherwise it would be LOL-bad.

 

Is there any chance of bumping up the damage so we can get a 4sk DMR in addition to buffing nades? The weak nades seem to rarely be discussed as a problem even though the first thing I noticed about H4 was that the nades are weak as **** (Explosion only helps a little).

 

Also, can anyone tell me what map packs I need to purchase to play Throwdown? Do I need Majestic and Bullseye just for Skyline and Pitfall?

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I don't know about getting rid of slayer as a gametype. I think slayer is still good at seperating players in a way that objective isn't and it's the easiest gametype for new spectators to understand. Plus slayer feels more neutral than objectives, like it would make a good round three gametype for best of threes if that makes sense.

 

however, I would be all for changing the order of gametypes and the number of slayers. For example what if we added in KotH and had two of every objective and only three slayers? I would like that.

 

Then as I suggested earlier, you only use slayer when the series is tied. Series is 1 to 1? Play a slayer. Series is 2 to 2? Play a slayer.

 

Just spitballing here really. I said earlier that slayer is the easiest gametype for new spectators to get into, but, unless it is a reall close match, I think it can also be one of the more boring gametypes to watch, as a more veteran spectator, especially on maps like Haven which have barely chaged from the beginning.

 

It's definitely worth looking at how we organize or gametypes and how many we run.

Can you be more specific about how TS shows a skill gap between teams more than objective gametypes? The objective gametypes are already heavily based around slaying really well. If we had people largely winning CTF games due to their flag running/stopping strats, then I might agree. Obviously those two factors are important, but almost everyone should understand that the most basic way of winning CTF is to kill all of the opponents and pull the flag. That's simply the core strategy that's persisted over the years. You don't see teams making calculated trades to pick up the flag before it is returned or anything. It's all slaying, but it's slaying intelligently as opposed to just slaying for the sake of slaying. In CTF, you kill the other team and setup for a flag cap. In TS, you kill the other team and setup for... more killing. Idk, it's just always felt stale to me because of the repetitiveness. There's largely a handful of good decisions to make unlike in objective gametypes where you constantly have to adapt to what happened.The number of ways your opponents and your own team can be situated is multiplied when you throw the objective factor into the mix.

 

I actually don't agree TS is the easiest gametype to understand (not that I think that should have any bearing on the best gametypes, but w/e). Someone who doesn't invest a bunch of time in competitive Halo won't understand the importance of anything they are watching. If someone gets a kill to secure an area a minute before a power weapon spawns over there, it will just blend in with the rest of the kills to the newbie. Even complete noobs can understand that in CTF, you care about the flags. If they steal your flag, you want to kill them. If you steal their flag, you want to protect your flag carrier. Those two aspects alone are exciting enough to keep a spectator engaged in a pro CTF game. I can't say the same for TS where there isn't really anything to focus on since the objective of the game is literally to kill the opponents better than they kill you. I'm sure it may be easier for newbies to PLAY slayer rather than CTF, but that's kind of hinting at why I think it's not a very good gametype... It's also worth pointing out that I don't think any other competitive FPS uses kill counts as a win condition. While Halo is obviously unique, I think it still says something about the general concept of a TS match.

 

As far as using slayer as a tie breaker, I think that is actually worse. I don't have any actual data to back this up unfortunately, but I think TS games are generally much closer than objective gametypes. If CTF, Oddball, and other gametypes have more blowouts than TS, then that's a pretty good indication of competitive the game type is. The trouble with testing something like this is it is hard to account for subjective issues like whether the gametype is balanced or not. If there is a CTF map where it's easy to cap, then of course you'll have a bunch of 5-0s. Similarly, if you're playing on a very stalemate-oriented map like Construct or The Pit, it isn't surprising when the team that goes down in the beginning has to play uphill for the rest of the game. I think that's another reason to get rid of slayer though. Not only do you have maps that dissuade teams from moving, but you dissuade any attempts at original strats at all. A team that risks a cool, new push to the opponent's side won't necessarily lose the game if they fail that push. They will at least have a chance to regroup and either adapt and try again or regroup and try something new. In slayer, these balls-deep strats are so uncommon because you can't afford to lose the lead because whoever has the lead dictates the pace of the game, and those deaths are very meaningful because they go directly to your opponent's score. If your score is based off of the objective as opposed to your own life, of course you will be more willing to go Rambo, which is what everyone wants to see, do, play against, and takes the most skill anyways.

 

tl;dr - My posts are always this big. Get used to it. :P

 

If we get rid of Slayer, Throwdown's population will become pretty much non-existent. Barely anyone plays it as is. If you remove the most popular gametype option, the population would get so low that 343 would probably be forced to remove it.

I understand that, hence why I said you could easily just include a TS version of every map in the MMing rotation.

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Getting rid of Slayer, in the only competitive playlist in halo 4 matchmaking? 

slZoenY.gif

I don't know if you guys are new to halo, or just devoid of common sense, but Slayer is the trademark gametype of halo. Just to elaborate a little bit, Slayer is one of the 5 core gametypes created in Halo CE to stick with us through all the developements of the franchise. What are those 5 gametypes? Slayer, Oddball, KOTH, CTF, Race. Oddball, KOTH and Race are gone from Throwdown and the majority of Halo 4 Matchmaking. Only CTF and Slayer remain. I can't believe you guys would rather take fucking Ricochet over Slayer. 

 

MOD EDIT: This post has been edited to abide by the forum rules. 

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What about the Light Rifle (zoomed)? I know it had a faster kill time back when the BR was a 5-shot, but I didn't play H4 until after the update. I'm assuming the BR shot faster when it was a 5sk because otherwise it would be LOL-bad.

 

Is there any chance of bumping up the damage so we can get a 4sk DMR in addition to buffing nades? The weak nades seem to rarely be discussed as a problem even though the first thing I noticed about H4 was that the nades are weak as **** (Explosion only helps a little).

 

Also, can anyone tell me what map packs I need to purchase to play Throwdown? Do I need Majestic and Bullseye just for Skyline and Pitfall?

I believe you just *need* Forge Island for Onyx which is a free download. Then Majestic for Skyline and Bullseye for Pitfall for v5 which will be released late September.

 

I'm 80% sure you don't *need* Majestic to play v4 atm but I could be wrong. 

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Getting rid of Slayer, in the only competitive playlist in halo 4 matchmaking? PAUSE...................Are you fucking r etarded?

 

I don't know if you guys are new to halo, or just devoid of common sense, but Slayer is the trademark gametype of halo. Just to elaborate a little bit, Slayer is one of the 5 core gametypes created in Halo CE to stick with us through all the developements of the franchise. What are those 5 gametypes? Slayer, Oddball, KOTH, CTF, Race. Oddball, KOTH and Race are gone from Throwdown and the majority of Halo 4 Matchmaking. Only CTF and Slayer remain. I can't believe you guys would rather take fucking Ricochet over Slayer. 

How is Slayer the trademark gametype of Halo when it's in every FPS ever? It's great that Halo CE had Slayer as a gametype, but it also had vehicles and giant maps. Should we use those too just because H1 had them? Even if you assume slayer worked in CE, that doesn't mean it works in any of the sequels where all of the primary weapons are less deadly and much easier than the Pistol. Maybe Slayer works in CE because there is a much higher skill gap where slaying is concerned, idk. All I know is that same gap hasn't been present since H2 since slayer games are almost always close to 50-40 as long as both teams are competent, and at the same time flag games are frequently shutouts or easy 5-2s/5-1s with the opponents only getting desperation caps that lead to counters.

 

If you have any actual arguments as to why slayer in H4 deserves a spot, I welcome it, but "ZOMG ITZ TRADITION" does not cut it as an argument.

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I don't know if you guys are new to halo, or just devoid of common sense, but Slayer is the trademark gametype of halo. Just to elaborate a little bit, Slayer is one of the 5 core gametypes created in Halo CE to stick with us through all the developements of the franchise. What are those 5 gametypes? Slayer, Oddball, KOTH, CTF, Race. Oddball, KOTH and Race are gone from Throwdown and the majority of Halo 4 Matchmaking. Only CTF and Slayer remain. I can't believe you guys would rather take fucking Ricochet over Slayer. 

People have different opinions, just because you disagree with them, it doesn't mean you have to personally attack them. 

 

I personally would still like to see TS stay in Halo, but just because I have that opinion, I don't have to tell someone they're mentally disabled because they view it differently to me. 

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I think the 11 gametype format should look like this:

 

3 Slayer (Games 3, 8, and 11).

2 Flag (Games 1 and 6).

2 Ricochet (Games 4 and 9).

2 Extraction (Games 5 and 10).

2 KOTH (Games 2 and 7).

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How is Slayer the trademark gametype of Halo when it's in every FPS ever? It's great that Halo CE had Slayer as a gametype, but it also had vehicles and giant maps. Should we use those too just because H1 had them? Even if you assume slayer worked in CE, that doesn't mean it works in any of the sequels where all of the primary weapons are less deadly and much easier than the Pistol. Maybe Slayer works in CE because there is a much higher skill gap where slaying is concerned, idk. All I know is that same gap hasn't been present since H2 since slayer games are almost always close to 50-40 as long as both teams are competent, and at the same time flag games are frequently shutouts or easy 5-2s/5-1s with the opponents only getting desperation caps that lead to counters.

 

If you have any actual arguments as to why slayer in H4 deserves a spot, I welcome it, but "ZOMG ITZ TRADITION" does not cut it as an argument.

First of all, " Team Slayer" as a gametype has many features that are undeniably original to Halo, but that is a different discussion. Regarding my appalled reaction to the suggestion of removing Slayer from Throwdown, it was to put into perspective how  successful Slayer has been in rewarding mastery over game mechanics, despite the transformations of Halo over the years. Ricochet on the other hand hasn't even been around for more than a month, and still doesn't have an ounce of competitive legitimacy. I am excited for its future introduction into the competitive community, im just saying that to throw out slayer just for that is very unreasonable.

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How is Slayer the trademark gametype of Halo when it's in every FPS ever? It's great that Halo CE had Slayer as a gametype, but it also had vehicles and giant maps. Should we use those too just because H1 had them? Even if you assume slayer worked in CE, that doesn't mean it works in any of the sequels where all of the primary weapons are less deadly and much easier than the Pistol. Maybe Slayer works in CE because there is a much higher skill gap where slaying is concerned, idk. All I know is that same gap hasn't been present since H2 since slayer games are almost always close to 50-40 as long as both teams are competent, and at the same time flag games are frequently shutouts or easy 5-2s/5-1s with the opponents only getting desperation caps that lead to counters.

 

If you have any actual arguments as to why slayer in H4 deserves a spot, I welcome it, but "ZOMG ITZ TRADITION" does not cut it as an argument.

I agree, Skill Gap has been decreased over the years, and as a result the margins of victory in Slayer have become increasingly smaller over the years. But why does that make it any less of a valid benchmark on skill? This simply means one team made less errors than the other, a battle of perfection. Also, in Halo CE there were more individual battles between players. Teamshotting and power positions weren't as important as they were in H2. Thus Slayer transformed into more of a teamwork oriented gametype. However the importance and validity of Slayer as a measuring of skill still continues today.

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Just would like to say that simplex *is not* asymmetrical.

 

 

It is definitely symmetrical in relation to where players spawn.   Same with haven. (well kinda- there are some slight differences that bug me between red and blue side)

 

I mean, by that logic any map that is not doubly symmetrical is asymmetrical.

 

I guess this means that Narrows, midship, and the pit are all asymmetrical too.

No bro...

 

Simplex is asym, you can't draw a single line down the middle of the map that would make both sides identical. Since to 2 side towers (Gold and Purp) are different, the routes leading from the main towers (Red and Blue) must be the same on both sides...which they aren't. The "screw up" is how the back of the bases are layed out.

 

Simplex uses symmetrical concepts in a asymmetrical map...much like construct did in H3. Its just where the symmetrical flaws are located, doesn't effect general gameplay lol. Sorry, I'm OCD when its comes to stuff like that.

 

Narrows, Midship, and Pit were all symmetrical...unless theres some super secret hiding spots that i don't know about

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No bro...

 

Simplex is asym, you can't draw a single line down the middle of the map that would make both sides identical. Since to 2 side towers (Gold and Purp) are different, the routes leading from the main towers (Red and Blue) must be the same on both sides...which they aren't. The "screw up" is how the back of the bases are layed out.

 

Simplex uses symmetrical concepts in a asymmetrical map...much like construct did in H3. Its just where the symmetrical flaws are located, doesn't effect general gameplay lol. Sorry, I'm OCD when its comes to stuff like that.

 

Narrows, Midship, and Pit were all symmetrical...unless theres some super secret hiding spots that i don't know about

perhaps you are right.  I have personally never noticed a difference in the back of the bases.  What difference exactly are you talking about?

 

Also technically narrows is asymmetrical- but only slightly so.

 

 

 

dem icicles.

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No bro...

 

Simplex is asym, you can't draw a single line down the middle of the map that would make both sides identical. Since to 2 side towers (Gold and Purp) are different, the routes leading from the main towers (Red and Blue) must be the same on both sides...which they aren't. The "screw up" is how the back of the bases are layed out.

 

Simplex uses symmetrical concepts in a asymmetrical map...much like construct did in H3. Its just where the symmetrical flaws are located, doesn't effect general gameplay lol. Sorry, I'm OCD when its comes to stuff like that.

 

Narrows, Midship, and Pit were all symmetrical...unless theres some super secret hiding spots that i don't know about

What? Are you saying that simplex isn't a symmetrical map? Cause it is.. unless you are talking of the first few versions of the map. Cause that was more of a functional symmetrical map.

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