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V5 Discussion Thread

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I get that, I just struggle to see why almost half of the gametypes should be Slayer/TDM when it could be argued as being the gametype with the least depth, especially since the Quake comparison breaks down as soon as a map without any notable power weapon or powerups is played and the timers are so long that they lead to extended periods in which there is nothing to move for.

 

I could see a much stronger argument for Slayer if it was played mostly on genuinely asymmetric maps with enough powerups and power weapons on different timers and good power positions, instead we've been stuck with what feels like a lot of either small symmetrical atrium maps or bigger symmetrical maps with a lot of LoS blocking geometry. I just feel it could be so much better with different maps, yet we're settling for it just because it's traditional to do so.

 

Ah, I wasn't aware you were open to less Slayers - sounded like you just wanted them out completely.

 

I've never liked having 6 Slayers. I've always dreamt of having 11 objective gametypes, but quite frankly, I think Halo players as a whole aren't open-minded and adept enough to appreciate or desire 11 objective gametypes. Team Slayer playlists have always been extremely more popular than Objective ones, which is indicative of that.

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"Marginally" is quite the understatement when you're comparing tube TVs from that time to the monitors of today. You could easily move around from a distance on HeH and Damnation, and even Prisoner to an extent without being caught. The ability to do so made crossing maps and breaking set-ups much more viable.

 

I didn't say Haven was a "run and gun map", I said it was an one of several "maps that favor run-and-gun". Very different, although some might just try to argue it's "semantics", but it really isn't. I compared it to Warlock because the designs encourage run-and-gun, which also extends to the acquiring of power weapons and power-ups. On maps like those, you fight frantically, obtain an item, and immediately try to get results, which is why OS is more favorable as a pickup. On the other group of maps, you obtain items and attack with them in a more organized manner, which favors Camo.

 

Compare how Camo is obtained and utilized on a map like Construct or Damnation, and compare that to the way Camo is obtained on Warlock and the way it would be on Haven. Very different gameplay styles. That's why OS is better in that latter group - OS guarantees aggression from both teams. Camo guarantees aggression only from the team with Camo. It's complimentary.

 

What happened to being an admin?

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Heads up, we'll be uploading the interview with Ghost tomorrow to Beyond channel.

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When he rationalized the EMP it was to counter standoffs.

 

Did he test without it to see if standoffs occur? There are a lot of movement options through the caves so I don't see it being quite lockout/guardian bad.

 

Did he test other, less gimmicky options to reduce standoffs such as powerups/weapons?

 

It seems odd to keep it just for breaking standoffs when there are many other ways to allow breaking of standoffs. Also, he even said that it shows you for two seconds before it goes off, so pros likely wouldn't fall for it if they were set up anyway, so how does it break standoffs?

 

A lot of people hate Vertigo. I don't mind Vertigo when the gimmicky stuff is removed.

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Also, he even said that it shows you for two seconds before it goes off, so pros likely wouldn't fall for it if they were set up anyway, so how does it break standoffs?

 

The EMP just makes breaking stand offs easier.

 

For example, if a team is set up and then they hear the EMP thing about to happen, they'll drop from their tower to avoid damage. But even though they didn't get hurt from the EMP, they were forced into a bad position, making them easier to kill. Meaning that the enemy will push them/ get angles on them to take advantage of the bad positioning.

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The EMP just makes breaking stand offs easier.

 

For example, if a team is set up and then they hear the EMP thing about to happen, they'll drop from their tower to avoid damage. But even though they didn't get hurt from the EMP, they were forced into a bad position, making them easier to kill. Meaning that the enemy will push them/ get angles on them to take advantage of the bad positioning.

But here is the thing: Vertigo isn't nearly as standoffish as Guardian/Lockout/Penance. On those maps I could understand it. The thing is that Vertigo actually had power positions unlike pretty much every other map in Halo 4. Basically only Dispatch top mid is actually powerful. Abandon's tower is okay, but it isn't going to give you a huge advantage. Same with the towers on Onyx and Simplex. There aren't any power positions like we saw with Pink 3 on midship or top mid on Narrows. This is mostly because of sprint making power positions inherently weaker. However, with Vertigo, at least the towers had a little bit of power, but now we want to nerf them more? 

 

Like I said, I can understand if high level games stalemate like Lockout/Guardian/Penance. This is why I asked it these things happened when it was blocked. If they do, then I understand it. If they don't, then I don't understand it. 

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The EMP just makes breaking stand offs easier.

 

For example, if a team is set up and then they hear the EMP thing about to happen, they'll drop from their tower to avoid damage. But even though they didn't get hurt from the EMP, they were forced into a bad position, making them easier to kill. Meaning that the enemy will push them/ get angles on them to take advantage of the bad positioning.

I disagree. It allows a team or player to break someone's set up easily that they deserved and getting into a power position just by shooting the EMP trigger. 

 

Imagine this. A team dies and gets bottom spawn on Vertigo. They simply shoot the EMP button and get the other team all no shields, either chuck nades up there and get easy kills, shoot them once in the head and get easy kills or watch them fall and pick them off. 

 

IMO, you should be the better team and have better teamwork to break a setup when another team has a power position, not just shoot an EMP button. 

 

The switch was clearly designed for casual play.

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I disagree. It allows a team or player to break someone's set up easily that they deserved and getting into a power position just by shooting the EMP trigger.

 

Imagine this. A team dies and gets bottom spawn on Vertigo. They simply shoot the EMP button and get the other team all no shields, either chuck nades up there and get easy kills, shoot them once in the head and get easy kills or watch them fall and pick them off.

 

IMO, you should be the better team and have better teamwork to break a setup when another team has a power position, not just shoot an EMP button.

 

The switch was clearly designed for casual play.

I said the EMP makes breaking stand offs easier.

 

So we agree

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I said the EMP makes breaking stand offs easier.

 

So we agree

There is a difference between breaking a power position and breaking a standoff. 

 

A standoff is what happens when you have two power positions that are equally powerful and the gun you are using can't pick the other team off from a distance so you can't get a man up advantage to push. 

 

A power position is a place on the map that gives you an advantage that you are forced to earn. 

 

 

That is the difference. One is bad and one is good. The EMP makes the good not as good because you don't have to earn the power position. You just shoot the button and they are forced to either abandon the location, or become 1-shot for easy kills. 

 

So no, you don't agree. 

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There is a difference between breaking a power position and breaking a standoff.

 

A standoff is what happens when you have two power positions that are equally powerful and the gun you are using can't pick the other team off from a distance so you can't get a man up advantage to push.

 

A power position is a place on the map that gives you an advantage that you are forced to earn.

 

 

That is the difference. One is bad and one is good. The EMP makes the good not as good because you don't have to earn the power position. You just shoot the button and they are forced to either abandon the location, or become 1-shot for easy kills.

 

So no, you don't agree.

I was agreeing with Sam that the EMP button makes breaking standoffs easier.

 

I understand how it's a cheap way of doing so, but it is what it is.

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EMPs innocent until proven guilty.

 

It only takes a few games of matchmaking to prove it guilty. 

 

It is a mechanic inherently designed to make people with an advantage lose that advantage. 

 

It is the equivalent of a button on the map that makes whoever has rocket launcher no shield if you press it. 

 

It doesn't require skill to shoot the button. It doesn't require skill to break a setup of a bunch of 1-shots. It doesn't require skill to break a setup when the team setting up is forced to get out of position to dodge being 1-shot. 

 

It is a backward solution to a problem and it is inherently designed to allow worse teams to not be punished for their lack of skill/teamwork. That is why it was added. There are much simpler, and teamwork oriented ways to encourage map movement. Things like weapon spawns, power up spawns, and forging in certain line of sight blockers/jump ups. 

 

Furthermore, the map has a ton of ways to get to either tower, so it isn't like you will have super standoffy games. Standoffs happen on maps when you are forced through a choke in order to be agressive allowing the other team to more easily team shoot you going through that choke. A choke doesn't need to be a narrow entrance, it just has to be a dangerous area. 

 

Lets look at maps that have had problems with standoffs and see if we can't identify a pattern: 

 

Lockout: 

How to push snipe:

1) Push top mid where it is really open

2) Push elbow where it is really open and you can't retreat (along with a cover disadvantage)

3) Push bottom middle where you have a massive height disadvantage. 

There are only three ways to push and all of them are very dangerous. 

 

How to push BR tower: 

1) Push top mid where it is really open

2) Push top mid to library, where you still have to go through top mid. 

3) Push bottom mid and come up from the bottom where you have a massive height disadvantage

4) Make a somewhat difficult jump in the open from lift to BR 1 and where you have a massive height disadvantage. 

There are only 4 ways to push (two are almost the same) and all of them are very dangerous

 

 

Guardian: 

How to push snipe tower:

1) Run top middle which is really open

2) Push bottom mid, where you are easily shot from S1

3) Lift over where you are open and immobile for several seconds

4) Push green to elbow where you are wide open and have a height/cover disadvantage

 

 

Adrift: 

How to push into the bases:

1) Push big door where you are easily naded and teamshot by 4 people

2) Push small door where you are easily naded and teamshot by 4 people

3) Push attic where you are easily naded and teamshot by 4 people

4) Lift over where you are easily teamshot by 4 people

 

 

Penance:

How to push green

1) Tele through where you are wide open

2) Push through blue to snipe where you are easily naded (you also have to go across waterfall

3) Lift up from shotgun where you are easily naded and teamshot by 3-4 people

 

 

Now on vertigo, the big tower has all of the caves on both sides that can be pushed through, that all have substantial cover, it has a lift from the bottom as well as ramps from the bottom and you can get there from the front. It also doesn't have much cover on big tower. If you are pushing small tower, you have the caves as well. You have the pipes on the front. You have a ramp on each side. You have a lift underneath. And the tower doesn't have that much cover. You also have sprint in Halo 4 which inherently nerfs power positions.

 

I am not saying that standoffs can't happen on vertigo. I expect it to be a lot like construct's pace where standoffs can happen, but not all the time. If you add powerups and power weapons, then it would immediately be faster than construct. And that isn't even factoring sprint into the equation, which would make standoffs even less likely. 

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The EMP is here to stay most likely.

 

If Ghost won't block the lifts on skyline. If Ghost put in ricochet. If Ghost denied no sprint. What are the chances of the EMP buttons getting blocked ?

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Vertigo doesn't have any power positions lol

IMO, it does with that high tower but it won't be very effective if the EMP switches stay.

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The EMP is here to stay most likely.

 

If Ghost won't block the lifts on skyline. If Ghost put in ricochet. If Ghost denied no sprint. What are the chances of the EMP buttons getting blocked ?

I understand the first two but NS was out of his hands. You're misinformed. He wants NS as much as us. 

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I understand the first two but NS was out of his hands. You're misinformed. He wants NS as much as us.

At first NS wasn't out of his hands because he was offered it by Quinn. He just said no without seeing what the community wanted.

 

But then once he found out that most of the community wanted NS, he tried to get an official NS gametype but that didn't work out for some reason.

 

Am I wrong on any of this ?

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At first NS wasn't out of his hands because he was offered it by Quinn. He just said no without seeing what the community wanted.

 

But then once he found out that most of the community wanted NS, he tried to get an official NS gametype but that didn't work out for some reason.

 

Am I wrong on any of this ?

As far as I know, NS was never an option and quinn never offered it.

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NS was never an option and quinn never offered it.

 

Correct.

 

Everything was hypothetical up until the point Ghost asked for NS gametypes, which he was then declined.

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Correct.

 

Everything was hypothetical up until the point Ghost asked for NS gametypes, which he was then declined.

Quinn offered it though, that's what a lot of people were saying and there was even a picture showing the conversation Quinn had with someone in a twitch chat where he basically says he offered a NS gametype to Ghost.

 

I don't know where that picture is, but I'm sure someone does.

 

All I know is that someone lied to someone somewhere in this story. Things don't appear to be too clear.

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