Could some AAs, Powerups, and Equipment be reworked?

[Cursed Lemon]

As I believe I've stated like 8 times now, it doesn't matter how small the difference is, if there is a difference off of the spawn other than spawn location it is no longer an "arena" shooter by my definition.

 

The difference between BR and DMR is not even a slight difference anyway- If your team could have 1 person with a DMR and the other 3 with a BR that would actually change your player roles in relation to one another, with your support player having the DMR and filling in gaps behind your other teammembers rushing for the majority of the game.  It's definitely a bigger difference maker than just plasma/frag.

 

What YOU choose to do with your weapon, and what the weapon implicitly suggests, are two completely different things. 

 

You can play exactly the same way with a BR as you can with a DMR and, barring getting fucked over by spread (or by bloom), you will get identical results. 

 

You cannot play the same way using an AR/shotgun/sniper as you would a DMR. That is a class difference. 

[aBaldGinger]

 The difference between the BR and the DMR, is that while either is better for a specific situation, they are only limited by their ease of use. DMR is easier to use at range, but nothing concrete makes it less effective at close range.

[makeitstop]

 The difference between the BR and the DMR, is that while either is better for a specific situation, they are only limited by their ease of use. DMR is easier to use at range, but nothing concrete makes it less effective at close range.

It is a 5shot kill while the BR is now a 4shot kill

 

 

What YOU choose to do with your weapon, and what the weapon implicitly suggests, are two completely different things. 

 

You can play exactly the same way with a BR as you can with a DMR and, barring getting fucked over by spread (or by bloom), you will get identical results. 

 

You cannot play the same way using an AR/shotgun/sniper as you would a DMR. That is a class difference. 

There *are* implicit differences that the weapons suggest since they are not the same weapon but rather have gameplay affecting differences.

 

You will certainly not get identical results using a BR at range as using a DMR, and same up close.

 

 

If there is a gameplay-affecting difference off of the spawn other than spawn location it is no longer an "arena" shooter by my definition.

[yoyozev]

Guys, guys! Custom classes could work.

[Cursed Lemon]

It is a 5shot kill while the BR is now a 4shot kill

 

 

There are implicit differences that the weapons suggest since they are not the same weapon but rather have gameplay affecting differences.

 

 

If there is a gameplay-affecting difference off of the spawn other than spawn location it is no longer an "arena" shooter by my definition.

 

Okay, so.

 

By your words. 

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Spraylo 4

Class Squad Shooter (Rainbow Six) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~ Arena Shooter (Quake)

 

Because Halo's gameplay isn't on the ABSOLUTE EXTREME END OF ARENA SHOOTERS, it suddenly becomes a class-based shooter?

[Teapot]

Halo 4 has a identity crisis. It's such a mixture of various games that I can't classify specifically.

[makeitstop]

Okay, so.

 

By your words. 

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Spraylo 4

Class Squad Shooter (Rainbow Six) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~ Arena Shooter (Quake)

 

Because Halo's gameplay isn't on the ABSOLUTE EXTREME END OF ARENA SHOOTERS, it suddenly becomes a class-based shooter?

It's not a gradient going from arena to class.  Yes, there are some class shooters where the differences between classes are much more drastic than others, and surely halo 4 is on the low end of that, but putting it simply:

 

If there is a gameplay-affecting difference off of the spawn other than spawn location it is no longer an "arena" shooter by my definition.

[Goat]

In my opinion, Halo 4 is an arena shooter with elements of class shooters interspersed. The problem is that these elements are not complimenting the base gameplay, but instead saturating and overshadowing it at times. If you remove all of these, Halo still is the shooter it always has been; therefore, I must stress that Halo needs to either go full-blown Class Shooter to avoid an identity crisis, or dial things down and return to its roots.

 

Thus, we are met with threads like these, whereby some of the additions are theorized in a different light so that they compliment the Arena style that Halo used to be. In as much as I appreciate the older games, I must repeat that I would like to see new additions that evolve Halo and not obscure or redefine it. Unfortunately, this line may be ambiguous at times. 

 

I also don't think spawning with a different primary weapon inherently changes Halo. Where we are now, the difference between these weapons is negligible on most maps. 

[Cursed Lemon]

Your ONE SINGLE CHARACTERISTIC does not automatically make Halo 4 a pure class shooter.

 

That is presumptuous and stupid.

[Sam]

Let me play out this scenario for you (in Midship terms). 

 

Player 1: Three down, three down, rush it pink side!

 

Player 2: Watch spawns car 2!

 

Player 1: Got flag going car!

 

Makeitstop: I'm on car 3.

 

Player 3: Spawning in base, spawning in base! 

 

Player 1: Cover me in window! 

 

Player 2: They're in window! Someone shoot them, I'm down pink side!

 

Player 1: I'M GETTING SHOT AT, SOMEONE COVER!!

 

Player 3: We've got three up, what the fuck?!

 

Player 2: Makeitstop, fucking FLANK! 

 

Player 1: Great, I fucking - dead, flag's getting returned. 

 

Player 2: Two guys on my X. 

 

Makeitstop: Are you crazy? They all have BRs! 

 

Player 3 has quit the game. 

 

Player 1: Are you fucking kidding me? 

I haven't laughed that hard in some time. Thank you.

[packytone]

can i just get a god damn energy orb?!

[makeitstop]

Your ONE SINGLE CHARACTERISTIC does not automatically make Halo 4 a pure class shooter.

 

That is presumptuous and stupid.

If there is a gameplay-affecting difference off of the spawn between teammates other than spawn location it is no longer an "arena" shooter by my definition.

 

There is no such thing as a "pure" class shooter.  

 

Only class and arena.  And yes, class-based shooters have varying levels of how different the classes are from one another.

 

Not sure what you mean by saying "presumptuous" - that word implies that I am making an assumption, however I am not making an assumption; I'm merely stating my opinion on the definition of a word.

[Ravengeance]

I just had a random idea. I'm not saying I personally like this idea I'm just intrigued by it. What if AA's didn't automatically recharge. Like what if you had to say get a kill to recharge your AA? Or like reload them somehow? 

Just spit balling ideas. I'm not a fan of AA's at all. But I think there is a way to balance them without breaking the game or maps. 

[Ghostie]

heres a friggin snip

the mechanic i suggested, whereby usage of armour abilities requires a sort of fuel, adheres to the principle of 'equal starts'. fuel is also obtained from the map, fitting in the 'fight to acquire' aspect of halo.

 

and ignoring the fact that this form of loadouts doesnt destroy halo's arena FPS aspect, u also again forget OTHER PEOPLE'S PREFERENCES. not everyone is like you. not everyone hates loadouts, and some prefer it over classic halo. why not offer these people the option to play as they want, even if its only in customs? if ur gonna respond along the lines of 'oh but itll affect the game indirectly eg) even if sprint was optional, maps wud still be big', well realise that an option can be implemented without the core game being based on it.

[makeitstop]

the mechanic i suggested, whereby usage of armour abilities requires a sort of fuel, adheres to the principle of 'equal starts'. fuel is also obtained from the map, fitting in the 'fight to acquire' aspect of halo.

 

It does not adhere to "equal starts" as there is still the difference that different players will have the *potential* to receive different armor abilities based upon what they choose *before* spawning.  

 

This is a game-affecting difference that exists between players off of the initial spawn other than spawn location.

 

The effect would certainly be smaller than it currently is- but it would exist.

 

Sort of like how you cannot use an aa right at the beginning but must wait for it to charge up first- the class-difference exists because you have the *potential* to achieve differing characteristics based upon what you choose before spawning.

 

 

 

 

and ignoring the fact that this form of loadouts doesnt destroy halo's arena FPS aspect, u also again forget OTHER PEOPLE'S PREFERENCES. not everyone is like you. not everyone hates loadouts, and some prefer it over classic halo. why not offer these people the option to play as they want, even if its only in customs? if ur gonna respond along the lines of 'oh but itll affect the game indirectly eg) even if sprint was optional, maps wud still be big', well realise that an option can be implemented without the core game being based on it.

I would prefer it if halo is roughly the same game throughout so that there isn't such a sharp divide between ranked and social playlists.

 

However, more realistically class-based playlilsts will continue to exist in halo, and I feel that those should be strictly kept in the social arena, with arena-combat taking up the ranked playlists- or at least the majority of them.

 

 

Also, I am not "forgetting" other people's opinions, I am simply sharing my own.  I have no obligation to share other people's opinions, although I do recognize that they exist.

[Ghostie]

It does not adhere to "equal starts" as there is still the difference that different players will have the *potential* to receive different armor abilities based upon what they choose *before* spawning.  

 

This is a game-affecting difference that exists between players off of the initial spawn other than spawn location.

 

The effect would certainly be smaller than it currently is- but it would exist.

 

Sort of like how you cannot use an aa right at the beginning but must wait for it to charge up first- the class-difference exists because you have the *potential* to achieve differing characteristics based upon what you choose before spawning.

no it adheres perfectly to 'equal starts'. there is potentiality to receive different armour abilities via on-map pick ups, there is also potentiality to obtain a different weapon than the standard starting rifle in every halo game. does this mean the game becomes a class shooter? u still start the same, u still gain advantages by obtaining items on the map, u still earn ur abilities with skill. the only difference is u choose wat u earn; how exactly does this destroy the integrity of the halo experience or defile its arena shooter aspect?

 

this is a game-affecting difference, true, but everything is a game-affecting difference. what you fail to identify is if this effect is bad. btw just because it offers a different halo experience (or not even a 'halo' experience by some people's definition) doesnt mean it is bad.

 

I would prefer it if halo is roughly the same game throughout so that there isn't such a sharp divide between ranked and social playlists.

 

However, more realistically class-based playlilsts will continue to exist in halo, and I feel that those should be strictly kept in the social arena, with arena-combat taking up the ranked playlists- or at least the majority of them.

 

 

Also, I am not "forgetting" other people's opinions, I am simply sharing my own.  I have no obligation to share other people's opinions, although I do recognize that they exist.

i agree, but u can remove segregation/dissimilarities by simply adding a class-based playlist in BOTH ranked and social sections. wowza!

 

also, yes you were. its not like u cant share ur own opinion and forget others' at the same time. "This would still make a halo a class shooter- which it is not and should never be" roughly equivalent to "class-based gameplay of any type should never be added to halo", how exactly does that not forget the fact that other players like classes and feel it belongs in halo?

[makeitstop]

no it adheres perfectly to 'equal starts'. there is potentiality to receive different armour abilities via on-map pick ups, there is also potentiality to obtain a different weapon than the standard starting rifle in every halo game. does this mean the game becomes a class shooter? u still start the same, u still gain advantages by obtaining items on the map, u still earn ur abilities with skill. the only difference is u choose wat u earn; how exactly does this destroy the integrity of the halo experience or defile its arena shooter aspect?

 

You choose what you earn *before* you spawn.  Thus it's a difference created before the spawn that affects gameplay- and it is class.  This is different from say, choosing an AA from the drop-down menu during the game, as that decision is made during the game and after spawning.

 

this is a game-affecting difference, true, but everything is a game-affecting difference.

 

Not everything is a game-affecting difference.  Choosing what color you wear is not a game-affecting difference, yet it is made before the match.

 

what you fail to identify is if this effect is bad. btw just because it offers a different halo experience (or not even a 'halo' experience by some people's definition) doesnt mean it is bad.

 

I never stated that it was bad- just that I would prefer to play an arena halo.  I can play other games (just as good if not better) that are class-shooters.  Right now I believe the problem with halo is that it is trying to stradle that line, and is in an identity crises.  When really the most successful class-shooter *are full on class shooters* where the differences in classes are stark, and the most successful arena shooters are just that- arena.

 

i agree, but u can remove segregation/dissimilarities by simply adding a class-based playlist in BOTH ranked and social sections. wowza!

 

As long as it is in the minority compared to arena-playlists.

 

also, yes you were. its not like u cant share ur own opinion and forget others' at the same time. "This would still make a halo a class shooter- which it is not and should never be" roughly equivalent to "class-based gameplay of any type should never be added to halo", how exactly does that not forget the fact that other players like classes and feel it belongs in halo?

 

I don't think that you understand how sharing an opinion works in written language.  Just because I didn't say "IMO" or "I personally believe", does not mean that this wasn't my personal opinion and that I recognize that others exist.  I would not have shared my own opinion if I didn't recognize that others existed, as it would be purposeless to do so.

 

Ask any freshman english teacher.  Any.  And they will tell you to remove any instances of "I believe" or "I think" from your paper, because it something that is inherently understood and does not need to be explicitly mentioned.  (assuming that you are the sole author and you are speaking for yourself.  If you are an editor for the NYT and you are sharing an opinion that you personally hold but that the newspaper does not, you may be advised to explicitly state "In the opinion of the author" so as not to create confusion.)

 

When I stated "This would still make halo a class shooter- which it is not and should never be" it was implicitly understood that this was "my opinion".  I should not have to state "although I know other opinions exist" every time I share my opinion, as that would be tedious and ultimately redundant- since it is already inherently understood.

 

Seriously, this is a well-known fact about writing arguments.

 

http://preciseedit.wordpress.com/2009/06/19/in-my-opinion-i-think-that-i-believe-this-is-bad-writing/

 

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/375915?uid=3739912&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102634639913

 

 

[shzlss]

 

 

You choose what you earn *before* you spawn.  Thus it's a difference created before the spawn that affects gameplay- and it is class.  This is different from say, choosing an AA from the drop-down menu during the game, as that decision is made during the game and after spawning.

 

 

 

So, how would Halo work if it had a League style leveling system for AAs. Everyone starts with nothing, and then as the game progresses, the points they get from kills/obj work could then be spent to buy different AAs and improve the one you already have.

 

Say with thruster, you buy that at 60 points,and then another 60 points you can upgrade the thruster with more distance. 50 more points and the thruster can be turned into a jetpack.

 

And, in order to not disrupt the flow of the game, you'd only get a chance to buy something on your death screen

[makeitstop]

So, how would Halo work if it had a League style leveling system for AAs. Everyone starts with nothing, and then as the game progresses, the points they get from kills/obj work could then be spent to buy different AAs and improve the one you already have.

 

Say with thruster, you buy that at 60 points,and then another 60 points you can upgrade the thruster with more distance. 50 more points and the thruster can be turned into a jetpack.

 

And, in order to not disrupt the flow of the game, you'd only get a chance to buy something on your death screen

Since this occurs after the initial spawn (later respawns are not initial spawns) sure.  It's actually very similar to what is currently in place with throwdown where you do get to choose between 3 AAs after getting a certain number of points.  This fits under my definition of an "arena shooter".

 

*that being said* I would prefer it if there weren't killstreaks- but for other reasons which I'll get into tomorrow if you really want.

[shzlss]

 

*that being said* I would prefer it if their weren't killstreaks- but for other reasons which I'll get into tomorrow if you really want.

 

Go for it, I'm actually curious now

[makeitstop]

Go for it, I'm actually curious now

alright.  Gotta get my sleep though first.  It's 5:42 AM over here.

[Ghostie]

snippy snip

each point responds to each bold sentence in order

 

- *future gameplay. so u admit it's 'equal starts' then?

 

- 'game-affecting' doesn't only mean gameplay. but even if we define 'game-affecting' as changing how a game plays (not how it looks, feels, handles etc) a lot of additions do this.

 

- so if the mechanic isnt bad, then this argument is over.

 

- agreed.

 

- i dont think ur understanding what im saying at all. what ur arguing, and what ur english teacher will tell u, is that u dont need "i believe" as a prerequisite to inform the reader that you are expressing an opinion. ur arguing an entirely different argument im afraid; im not accusing u of stating opinion as fact, im accusing ur opinion of being ignorant of others' preferences (a keyword i originally used, but which u transformed in post #65). im not even accusing u of being unaware that other opinions exist, acknowledging existence != consideration. tell me if i say "visible ranks should never be in halo" is this not an opinion that disregards others, whether im aware that people like visible ranks or not? anyhow this meta-argument is irrelevant to the debate on the inclusion/addition of class-based elements.

 

 

edit: its cool we havent devolved into a flame war, lets keep it up!

[makeitstop]

each point responds to each bold sentence in order

 

- *future gameplay. so u admit it's 'equal starts' then?

 

No.  I've already explained this, so I'll just copy/paste.  "You choose what you earn *before* you spawn.  Thus it's a difference created before the spawn that affects gameplay- and it is class.  This is different from say, choosing an AA from the drop-down menu during the game, as that decision is made during the game and after spawning."

 

You do not start equal.  Different people start with a different potential.

 

 

- 'game-affecting' doesn't only mean gameplay. but even if we define 'game-affecting' as changing how a game plays (not how it looks, feels, handles etc) a lot of additions do this.

 

Ok, so now you're literally just arguing semantics.  The last point you made had me worried, but this just proves it.  Obviously I meant gameplay-affecting.   This will not be worth my time if your points aren't legitimate but rather random grammatical/word issues that are irrelevant to my actual point.  You knew exactly what I meant.

 

- so if the mechanic isnt bad, then this argument is over.

 

No it's not.  The whole purpose of my argument is that the changes you are describing would make it class.  That was my argument.  I'm sorry if you did not catch that- but it's been my argument the last 10 or so comments.   

 

That being said, I do believe that system would be bad.  But let me put it this way:

 

If they turned halo into a functional equivalent of Shadowrun- where everything played the exact same but with a halo skin, this would be a good game.  But it would also not be Halo.  

 

So even if they figure out a class-system that is good, I would not want it as it is not what I purchase halo to play.

 

 

- i dont think ur understanding what im saying at all. what ur arguing, and what ur english teacher will tell u, is that u dont need "i believe" as a prerequisite to inform the reader that you are expressing an opinion. ur arguing an entirely different argument im afraid; im not accusing u of stating opinion as fact, im accusing ur opinion of being ignorant of others' preferences (a keyword i originally used, but which u transformed in post #65). im not even accusing u of being unaware that other opinions exist, acknowledging existence != consideration. tell me if i say "visible ranks should never be in halo" is this not an opinion that disregards others, whether im aware that people like visible ranks or not? anyhow this meta-argument is irrelevant to the debate on the inclusion/addition of class-based elements.

 

No, the statement: "visible ranks should never be in halo" is not an opinion that "disregards" other's opinions.  I have no idea where you got the idea that if you state your personal opinion you must therefore be disregarding others.    That just makes no sense whatsoever.