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With dedicated servers, are you for/against hitscan in H5?

  

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  1. 1. With dedicated servers, are you for/against hitscan in H5?

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    • Against
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oh really? so even if you aren't moving and your opponent isn't moving your weapon can still miss because of a random integar rather than your own lack of skill? You would actively punish having a high place on the skill gap while simultaneously rewarding low skill gap players with shots they may or may not have hit? Saying projectile takes more skill is like saying flipping quarters and guessing which side it will land on takes skill.

 

Not sure all the praise for halo 3 LAN either, played 2s less than a month ago and the spread still sets back a steady BR due to randomness. Obviously less so but you compare the consistency with hitscan in h2 it's still garbage. vastly improved on lan, still not ideal. People also seem to forget that the sluggishness of h3 in general almost complimented projectile gameplay, h5 won't be nearly as slow. picture trying to lead a dude who knows what he's doing sprinting (oxymoronic but just hear my point) around a dispatch remake? woof. Another classic case of 343's mistakes having unforeseen consquences for the future. Everyone thinks you can just say projectile or hitscan and then that's what it should be but you have to think about the full scope of what halo 5 will be, NOT which aspect was in your favorite halo.

It seems like you think spread and projectile are the same thing. They're not. You could make the Reach ZB DMR a projectile weapon, and that IMO would be the best possible Halo starting weapon.

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Even if people think hitscan requires "less skill" it is still better. Most games are gonna be online. So you have to create the game for the best online experience. Hitscan is the best way to compensate for lag, and there will still be lag. H3 is awesome on lan but suffers terribly online. Even if you don't personally like hitscan, it is a necessary thing for online.  

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Them choosing to stutter strafe isnt random or you rolling the dice wrong, its them making a good play and actually strafing like an intelligent being, thus increasing their chance at living through that long range encounter. That forces the other player shooting at you to adjust accordingly, if he is skillful enough, or come closer so that he doesnt have to lead shots. I believe projectiles put even more importance into strafing than just lowering the auto aim, and you can say encourages players to seek more close range encounters rather than sitting back especially if they arent able to land those long range shots on a moving player. 

There is an important difference here- 

 

when you are in a long range enounter with a projectile weapon, you essentially  have to flip a coin at times as to where you should aim.  IF they happen to the strafe in the direction that you lead- congrats.  IF they happen to strafe in the other direction- oh well.  With projectile based aiming sometimes a slightly worse player will get slightly luckier in guessing where you go and "win" the battle- even if that only means that they forced you to back down.

 

Obviously you have to strafe and strafing is "a good play and actually strafing like an intelligent being." You don't need to explain to me the benefits of strafing- that is unrelated.

 

 

If I had the option to let my opponents shots be more accurate, or to increase the randomness of their shots- obviously I would choose to increase the randomness of their shots.

 

Same thing with strafing- obviously I'm going to strafe projectile or no projectile.  That does not have any bearing on which is a better system though.

 

With projectile aiming you have a small slit that you need to aim into in order to hit your target- but you often have to take a guess where that slit is at longer ranges- and hope that you got lucky. 

 

With hitscan (and a lower aim assist) you still have a small slit that you need to aim into- it's just that there is no guesswork involved.

 

And you still have to strafe regardless of whether or not there is hitscan, so an argument of which makes strafing "more important" is irrelevant.  You'll still be strafing either way- it's just that with hitscan the benefits are slightly lessened since your opponent no longer has to guess which way you'll strafe/stutter/stop/jump/crouch with their next stop.

 

Now I do know that the time between when you pull the trigger and when the bullets hit is a very small window- and you don't have to lead by too much.  The guesswork involved is really only slight- like half an inch on my screen.  But that's guesswork nontheless. 

 

In other words- I understand that this is not an issue of "I aimed left, but unfortunately he went right" but rather "I aimed left a full inch, but unfortunately he began to stutter and I should have only aimed left 3 quarters of an inch."  I recognize that the guesswork is slight- but once again it's still there.

 

Essentially here are the pros and cons:

 

Projectile

 

+ slightly more skill involved (since you have to know about leading shots)

 

+ harder to aim at range

 

- only harder to aim at range due to guesswork involved, and a "rock/paper/scissors" mechanic where both players are in control of their movement, but it still leads to a randomness inducing encounter

 

- garbage online

 

Hitscan

 

+no guesswork involved whatsoever

 

+better hit tracking online

 

- takes slightly less skill than having to lead.  (you still have to aim just as good, but now you don't have to worry about leading)

 

 

 

Halo ce worked because A: killtimes were quicker and B:the whole rest of the game was so much better.  C: I prefer the projectile nature of the pistol over the projectile nature coupled with the super spread of the BR (although the pistol did have some spread).

 

With the pistol it is arguable that the skill added overshadows the guesswork involved- so I'm not saying that projectile *can't be done*, but I would soooo much rather have a halo 4 BR with descope than a halo 3 BR.

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PLUS TRY HALO 3 SNIPER VS H2,HREACH AND H4. TELL ME WHICH SNIPER IS HARDER TO USE, H3 BECAUSE PROJECTILE, NOW THERE CAN BE A SKILL GAP WITH SNIPER AGAIN

 

EDIT I AM WRONG.

 

from bungie:

Unlike the Halo 2 Battle Rifle, the Halo 3 Battle Rifle is not a hitscan weapon. There are technically no hitscan weapons in Halo 3. The closest a projectile is to hitscan in Halo 3 is the Spartan laser, which instantly checks for a collision within the weapon’s maximum range (that range is the largest of any weapon in Halo 3). The Sniper Rifle bullet is a high velocity round and covers that same distance in somewhere between two and three ticks. What that means, is that at a certain range, the Sniper Rifle behaves like an instant hit weapon, but at longer ranges it takes two to three frames for the bullet to arrive. Keep in mind that the initial range for the Sniper Rifle is huge.

 

 

me being wrong:

 

Um, call me crazy here, but I believe the H3 sniper was hitscan. You never needed to lead with that thing, even at extreme distances. The BR was def not hitscan, but the reason that the sniper in H3 was more difficult was simply due to reduced autoaim, magnetism, changes to the hit detection model (aka sweeping was way less effective) and slightly smaller hitboxes than h2.

 

The funniest part is that there is a chance that the h2 sniper was not hitscan. I have a distinct memory of leading shots in Coagulation snipers.

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What are you even talking about?

That whole essay literally made no sense.

 

When aiming incorrectly you miss the shot regardless if it's hitscan or projectile.

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There is an important difference here- 

 

when you are in a long range enounter with a projectile weapon, you essentially  have to flip a coin at times as to where you should aim.  IF they happen to the strafe in the direction that you lead- congrats.  IF they happen to strafe in the other direction- oh well.  With projectile based aiming sometimes a slightly worse player will get slightly luckier in guessing where you go and "win" the battle- even if that only means that they forced you to back down.

 

Obviously you have to strafe and strafing is "a good play and actually strafing like an intelligent being." You don't need to explain to me the benefits of strafing- that is unrelated.

 

 

If I had the option to let my opponents shots be more accurate, or to increase the randomness of their shots- obviously I would choose to increase the randomness of their shots.

 

Same thing with strafing- obviously I'm going to strafe projectile or no projectile.  That does not have any bearing on which is a better system though.

 

With projectile aiming you have a small slit that you need to aim into in order to hit your target- but you often have to take a guess where that slit is at longer ranges- and hope that you got lucky. 

 

With hitscan (and a lower aim assist) you still have a small slit that you need to aim into- it's just that there is no guesswork involved.

 

And you still have to strafe regardless of whether or not there is hitscan, so an argument of which makes strafing "more important" is irrelevant.  You'll still be strafing either way- it's just that with hitscan the benefits are slightly lessened since your opponent no longer has to guess which way you'll strafe/stutter/stop/jump/crouch with their next stop.

 

Now I do know that the time between when you pull the trigger and when the bullets hit is a very small window- and you don't have to lead by too much.  The guesswork involved is really only slight- like half an inch on my screen.  But that's guesswork nontheless. 

 

In other words- I understand that this is not an issue of "I aimed left, but unfortunately he went right" but rather "I aimed left a full inch, but unfortunately he began to stutter and I should have only aimed left 3 quarters of an inch."  I recognize that the guesswork is slight- but once again it's still there.

 

Essentially here are the pros and cons:

 

Projectile

 

+ slightly more skill involved (since you have to know about leading shots)

 

+ harder to aim at range

 

- only harder to aim at range due to guesswork involved, and a "rock/paper/scissors" mechanic where both players are in control of their movement, but it still leads to a randomness inducing encounter

 

- garbage online

 

Hitscan

 

+no guesswork involved whatsoever

 

+better hit tracking online

 

- takes slightly less skill than having to lead.  (you still have to aim just as good, but now you don't have to worry about leading)

 

 

 

Halo ce worked because A: killtimes were quicker and B:the whole rest of the game was so much better.  C: I prefer the projectile nature of the pistol over the projectile nature coupled with the super spread of the BR (although the pistol did have some spread).

 

With the pistol it is arguable that the skill added overshadows the guesswork involved- so I'm not saying that projectile *can't be done*, but I would soooo much rather have a halo 4 BR with descope than a halo 3 BR.

 

I dont want a h3 BR either. If the CE pistol returned or some variant of that or if they went the way of a 4 shot DMR or something that would prob be the only situation i want projectiles. 

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Um, call me crazy here, but I believe the H3 sniper was hitscan. You never needed to lead with that thing, even at extreme distances. The BR was def not hitscan, but the reason that the sniper in H3 was more difficult was simply due to reduced autoaim, magnetism, changes to the hit detection model (aka sweeping was way less effective) and slightly smaller hitboxes than h2.

 

The funniest part is that there is a chance that the h2 sniper was not hitscan. I have a distinct memory of leading shots in Coagulation snipers.

I can promise you the H3 sniper was projectile. You could miss a red reticule shot if you had it on the trailing side of their head. It was possible to do in H2 as well, but only from extreme, blue reticule distances.

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I can promise you the H3 sniper was projectile. You could miss a red reticule shot if you had it on the trailing side of their head. It was possible to do in H2 as well, but only from extreme, blue reticule distances.

Was that cause of it being projectile, or because of bad netcode or lag?

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I can promise you the H3 sniper was projectile. You could miss a red reticule shot if you had it on the trailing side of their head. It was possible to do in H2 as well, but only from extreme, blue reticule distances.

 

Duly noted. I won't argue because I don't know that I'm right and I trust you.

 

 

edit:

Direct from Bungie:

 

Unlike the Halo 2 Battle Rifle, the Halo 3 Battle Rifle is not a hitscan weapon. There are technically no hitscan weapons in Halo 3. The closest a projectile is to hitscan in Halo 3 is the Spartan laser, which instantly checks for a collision within the weapon’s maximum range (that range is the largest of any weapon in Halo 3).

 

The Sniper Rifle bullet is a high velocity round and covers that same distance in somewhere between two and three ticks. What that means, is that at a certain range, the Sniper Rifle behaves like an instant hit weapon, but at longer ranges it takes two to three frames for the bullet to arrive. Keep in mind that the initial range for the Sniper Rifle is huge.

 

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Duly noted. I won't argue because I don't know that I'm right and I trust you.

 

edit:

Direct from Bungie:

 

I remember reading that somewhere when it was new. I could just feel that it wasn't, particularly on maps like Sandtrap. I loved H3's sniper.

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Was that cause of it being projectile, or because of bad netcode or lag?

It was designed to be projectile. As ct thought, it functioned nearly identical to hitscan snipers, but you could tell the difference on bigger maps. That's why Hemmorage snipers was so jarringly bad in Reach, but it would have played ok in H3. You had to do just a hair of leading, which meant you could make people miss, which meant camping behind Red wouldn't be nearly as effective.

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Dedicated servers are great and all but lagg will still be relative to your location to servers. Many people are still going to have latency issues. Especially if h5 is good and the population is massive.

 

Hitscan please

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Duly noted. I won't argue because I don't know that I'm right and I trust you.

 

 

edit:

Direct from Bungie:

It's projectile nature was especially noticeable when playing snipers on sandtrap back when trying out custom game lobbies and such.  I distinctly remember having to lead shots to shoot people on mongooses going around the outskirts of sandtrap.

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What are you even talking about?

That whole essay literally made no sense.

 

When aiming incorrectly you miss the shot regardless if it's hitscan or projectile.

yeah I really don't think you understood it at all.  I'm not sure what good reiterating my main point will do so I won't even bother.  And this wasn't an "essay" I just double spaced things.

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Projectile speed needs to be balanced with movement acceleration and bullet magnetism to allow really good players to ensure they hit every time. Basically, if the player predicted their target's vector and velocity perfectly, his shot should hit even if the target strafes at the most unpredictable moment.

 

This means that at some range, projectiles would need to turn into hitscans, or magnetism should scale with range.

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What does consistent lag mean?

It means that how the game works for you (whether its really laggy or not) will be the same because it will be based solely off of your connection and not a hosts'.

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Projectile speed needs to be balanced with movement acceleration and bullet magnetism to allow really good players to ensure they hit every time. Basically, if the player predicted their target's vector and velocity perfectly, his shot should hit even if the target strafes at the most unpredictable moment.

 

This means that at some range, projectiles would need to turn into hitscans, or magnetism should scale with range.

thank you for understanding/agreeing with me about projectile having inherent randomness.

 

However, I'm not sure this could be accomplished any way except for just going full hitscan- which really has no drawbacks other than possibly slightly lowering the skill it takes since you don't have to know about leading.

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thank you for understanding/agreeing with me about projectile having inherent randomness.

 

However, I'm not sure this could be accomplished any way except for just going full hitscan- which really has no drawbacks other than possibly slightly lowering the skill it takes since you don't have to know about leading.

A spartan's head is larger than a single point, allowing for some margin of error. Assume a target is moving right, relative to you. If there was strafe acceleration and you aimed to the rightmost point on his hitbox, you can still be guaranteed a hit if the projectile is fast enough (reaching him before his hitbox moves the whole length leftwards).   

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I can promise you the H3 sniper was projectile. You could miss a red reticule shot if you had it on the trailing side of their head. It was possible to do in H2 as well, but only from extreme, blue reticule distances.

I think the H2 sniper would miss at extreme ranges because it actually has a small amount of spread (read on a wiki). I don't think any maps are big enough to test it, but their is definitely some spread on the beam rifle when no-scoping.

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A spartan's head is larger than a single point, allowing for some margin of error. Assume a target is moving right, relative to you. If there was strafe acceleration and you aimed to the rightmost point on his hitbox, you can still be guaranteed a hit if the projectile is fast enough (reaching him before his hitbox moves the whole length leftwards).   

but what if we go with earlier-style strafing where you can change direction instantaneously?

 

In other words no strafe acceleration?

 

Would you prefer acceleration?

 

(good point by the way, I hadn't even thought of that.)

 

edit

 

thinking about it I guess that even if there were no strafe acceleration and you could change direction instantaneously- it could still be possible to have nonrandom projectile with the method you described above  however  you would only ever have to lead by roughly half a reticule at most for a system like that to work.

 

Basically the mathematical factors would have to take into account how fast the other person could move after changing direction- forcing you to lead less each time if the variables are accounted for- but if their strafe-speed is anything at all like halo 2/ halo c.e.  this would mean that you would only ever have to lead your shots by a tiny amount- keeping your reticule at least partly overlapping their body.

 

 

 

however, this would lead to unrealistic shots.  Since you would always have to keep at least part of your reticule overlapping them regardless of range this would lead to shooting dynamics where it appears physically as if the bullet is actually continually accelerating as it travels.  In other words, as the opponent backs up in distance, the bullet speeds up to compensate so that the same amount of leading is necessary regardless of how far the opponent is.  Even if the amount of leading necessary is increased- it [the amount of leading necessary] would still have to approach an asymptote.  Namely- it [the leading] could still never exceed putting your reticule outside of the opponent's body.  There would still have to be at least 1 pixel of overlap.   So it would still have to theoretically have an accelerating bullet, although the accelerating bullet would accelerate with less quickness if this were the case (the amount of leading does increase with distance- but never exceeds putting your reticule on the edge of their hitbox).

 

So we have two options when there is no strafe acceleration:

 

1. have an accelerating bullet (very unintuitive- although theoretically the amount of accelerating could be minimized on small maps to where it is never even noticed- by small I mean less than 500m in length)

 

2. or simply go hitscan and have a bullet that travels at infinite speed, i.e. hits instantaneously.   (of course you could have the registration of the shot lag a little bit, but the point is that whether or not it hits is decided in an instant based on whether your aim was on the opponent or not.)

 

 

It's harder to work out on paper, but I believe just based on a preliminary sketch of the factors involved that you would still have to have an accelerating bullet to use the system that you described when there IS strafe acceleration (and by definition deceleration as well).  I could be wrong however- and it could be that the amount of accelerating the bullet would have to undergo could be perfectly counteracted by the amount of accelerating that the opponent would have to go through when changing direction coupled with the change in leading- as range is increased.  This is a problem that is easier stated than solved- it is deceptively difficult.  At least I believe it is just by looking at it.  Possibly there's a simple solution?  I'd have to put more time into it if I really feel like figuring it out.

 

second edit:

 

this is all of course assuming that you don't do something else unintuitive like increasing the hitbox of the opponent with range or (gasp) increasing aim assist with range.

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but what if we go with earlier-style strafing where you can change direction instantaneously?

 

In other words no strafe acceleration?

 

Would you prefer acceleration?

 

(good point by the way, I hadn't even thought of that.)

If there was no strafe acceleration, you would aim at the exact center of the hitbox, and my explanation still applies. However, if this was the case, the projectile velocity would have to be extremely high (or Spartans should have extremely large heads) to guarantee a hit.

 

If we are going to get a good strafe and a fast base movement speed, I would prefer weapons to be hitscan. You still need to predict an enemy's position when using hitscan weapons, just look at the Quake 3 railgun. 

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A note: just because a weapon is hitscan doesn't mean that the projectiles register instantly.

I understand this, and I mentioned it in my post (perhaps you didn't see my edit)- the point is that (theoretically- i.e. without stuff like lag and bloodshots) the shot is decided based on whether the opponent was in your reticule at the moment of firing.  Even though the actual registration of the shot would have to occur later simply due to the speed of electricity and the need for the game to calculate- i.e. run a program on your shots.  

 

If there was no strafe acceleration, you would aim at the exact center of the hitbox, and my explanation still applies. However, if this was the case, the projectile velocity would have to be extremely high (or Spartans should have extremely large heads) to guarantee a hit.

 

If you see my edit, the projectile velocity would not only have to be very high, but I believe it would actually have to accelerate.

 

Also your point about quake was very astute.

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The H2 sniper missed at extreme ranges because it literally had a distance cap off-host, at least over XBL.

I distinctly remember leading and killing people with the sniper on Coagulation. It was 10x blue reticule, so it was rarely necessary, but it did lose its hitscan properties at that distance.

 

You pretty much had to stage the damage cutoff point. I've never had that effect me in a real game.

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