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Lord Boobington

Should the next Halo Title have AA's?

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Focusing on good solid balanced game play over any additions or gimmicks should always have been 343's goal. The sandbox already suffered massively in Reach due to poor additions, yet they continued that awful trend with Halo 4 anyway, which led to extreme randomness and unbalanced game play right from the start.

 

AA's either need to be simple and implemented in smarter ways, the best route will be either to scrap them or implement them as on map Power Ups, Grenades, Weaponry, that have similar concepts as previous AA's. Even then some AA's simply are so broken and unbalanced in Halo that they do not belong in any form and most people will agree. AA's such as Jet Pack, Promethean Vision and abilities that slow down game play like Armor Lock, Hardlight Shield, which just keep players from being punished for bad decisions similar to Sprint, they just drag down game play.

 

Active Camo also needs to strictly be a Power Up item on maps. One of the many dumb decisions made by 343 was taking the Camo Power Up away and turning it into possibly the most hated AA in the game as its so abused by campers and children in a already broken sandbox and game.

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there are a myriad of ways to balance AAs. it's just that this community (and by this i mean only the people on this site minus myself and a select few) has a hatred towards loadouts or anything class-related, whilst ignoring the invention of custom gametype options.

 

the problems with jet pack and pro vision are they require no skill to obtain (having only to select them in a menu) and they are limitless in usage. there are dozens of ways to solve these issues, some of which are better than having them be on-map pickups (especially considering having them on map still doesn't eliminate the issue of limitless usage). armour lock however i will concede is total utter bullocks in any way possible :/

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I've probably mentioned it already in this thread, but I'm not against the concept AAs themselves. Heck I like them a bit more than Equipment. But I am against the idea of loadouts that differ much more severely than the choice between DMR/NR or BR/Carbine.

 

If the abilities themselves were placed on maps as minor powerups and were mostly movement related abilities that good players can use much more effectively than poor players (in a way that isn't as broken as Reach's sprint or Evade) and in such a way that defensive use isn't considered optimal I think we'd be heading towards a fair compromise

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Now compare that to some one like Ninja/ola/snipedown, and you see a destinct difference in how they use their sprint, they don't sprint half as much, and use it to support their teammates, rather then themselves. And that goes for most AAs , the shield is used by average players like a armour lock, whereas pros use it to support the obj (at a very basic level of the shield) the thruster pack is almost never used the the casual community, whereas it probably the most used by pros.

 

I hate to break it down to you, but most good players despise AAs and feel like the best compromise is to use the weakest one or one that doesn't slow down the pace of the game. That means Thruster pack or Jetpack. The casual players like using the other AAs because they're extremely overpowered -- which deteriorate the skill gap -- and slowing down the game does not mean something bad for them. It's just less deaths (in a relative perspective to someone good).

 

I'm not trying to say that the game is perfect (far from it), but of all the flaws in Halo 4, AAs are probably the least flawed. we should be talking about the lack of good maps, that both the casual and competitive community can enjoy. We should be talking about the sluggish response time when moving from one direction to another (and up and down), we should talk about the lack of modifiers in gametypes (hell in infected you can't even choose a fucking weapon come on), the lack of a social and ranked hoppers, the lack of a ranking system right out of the gate, those are the game breaking flaws. Not AAs they're ok, and with tweaking can be truly competitive.

 

Like I said somewhere else, there's almost no point in a good skill-based ranking system when what happens in-game is not representative of skill. You also cannot build good maps with AAs in mind. If you think about the Jetpack, most cover becomes pointless, most jumps or routes as well. PV renders sight line breakers / walls pointless. Camo allows you to sit in the open / at a choke point while waiting for a power weapon or influence the spawns and not be punished for it. Right off the bat, ALL map knowledge and timing is gone.

 

On top of that, if you consider the fact that you start with those items rather than them being power items fought over, there's just nothing left to make the game work. There's no pace, nothing predictable or to be calculated. It's random chaos.

 

Settings are bad, maps become bad no matter how well designed, knowledge is not an advantage anymore, game becomes slow, 1v1 encounters are luck-based... there's nothing competitive. You cannot pretend to care about skill and want to measure yourself to others when there's not an actual competition. It's pure random and the sole way to prevent that is to use even more linear aggression (pushing with numbers) than in the past games, and it's something people complained about so much.

See bolded pink.

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Why does this topic have so much pages? It just should be "Hell fucking no" 

 

Done, the argumentation for AAs ist just "but the game has to evolve" No it doesn't, at least not in a way that alters the base formular of everyone spawning on equal feet.

 

If you want to have them somehow in the game make them like PowerUps: Sprint = Speed boost. OS and Camo  as power ups back.    Jump Pack( a way less annoying Jetpack, that can run out of fuel)  as equipment on map

 

 

We don't need this shit

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The jump from Halo 3 to Reach with armor abilities changed the formula of the game. Let me throw some examples out there. Imagine if you were a fan of Gran Turismo, Forza, or whatever...and all of sudden, the sequel to one of those games started using the mechanics from Burnout 3. People would be livid. Sure the mechanics of near danger and bashing into other cars can fun, but it isn't an evolution of the game...it changed the game itself. The emphasis on precision and timing is gone along with the skill needed to play the game. You can argue, "well, its still a racing game" but anyone with common sense can see it can't be a sequel to the other two games. Think of Madden or the NBA 2K series. Imagine if they started implementing the NFL Blitz mechanics or NBA street ball mechanics. Sure, its still football and basketball, but can't be a sequel to the prior titles. They are different games. For some reason, that logic is lost when it comes to Halo. Armor abilities make Halo's MP a completely different game. 

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What sucks is that Halo has seen both sides of this

We have had AA's in game

We have had NO AA's in Game

The true problem is SOME people enjoy them and some people don't.

So 343 has to try and make both types of Halo players Happy and willing to spend $60+ bucks for the next HALO game .

 

How can you mix all the good from Halo 3 /Reach / and Halo 4 and continue to gain New Halo fans .

Not an easy task that's for sure.

More people hate AA's than people who enjoy them.

 

More people enjoyed classic Halo/CE-H3 than Reach+Halo 4. The numbers don't lie.

 

I think AA's could have a place in Campaign and Spartan OPS/Firefight/etc.

 

but no where else.

And Customs. Leave it out of MM, but give kids tons of options and features to play around with in Customs. That way, you have a thriving Custom community who create all types of wacky and fun gametypes like we saw emerge in H3 (fat kid, duck hunt, jenga etc).

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More people hate AA's than people who enjoy them.

 

More people enjoyed classic Halo/CE-H3 than Reach+Halo 4. The numbers don't lie.

 

And Customs. Leave it out of MM, but give kids tons of options and features to play around with in Customs. That way, you have a thriving Custom community who create all types of wacky and fun gametypes like we saw emerge in H3 (fat kid, duck hunt, jenga etc).

 

True i agree 100% im just saying there are people out there that think Reach and Halo 4 were/are the best Halo ever . :goldenboy:

I really hope we see them get tossed out of MM just that alone would bring so much hope for Halo 5

 

 

And as for customs YES in my mind we should never take anything away from forge/custom games

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Armour Abilities aren't synonymous with loadouts. A lot of replies seem to assume that is the case, but it's really not. Would anyone really have an issue with well balanced abilities placed on the maps and minor loadouts in which the only difference would be selection between several rifles all with the same zoom and kill time?

 

A single loadout would be great, but let's face it - even within the competitive community people want a choice between the BR or literally anything that isn't the BR. I fall into the latter group, and while I wouldn't particularly be pleased that the BR was in play (or indeed, in the game for that matter) at all I'd feel that it would be a reasonable compromise to not have to use the wretched thing myself.

 

Rather than pushing for an outright removal of functional systems introduced in Reach and Halo 4 it would be much more efficient to impress upon 343 the importance of taking a less ham-fisted approach to their implementation. The loadout system itself works great for customisation, but for the default offerings they should understand that the options presented to players need to be reigned in if the game is to appeal to most of the players they lost over the past year, and that if personally constructed loadouts are a part of the MM experience they should be restricted to sideline playlists which won't be mistaken for a core Halo experience by long-term fans.

 

As long as they don't force AAs down our throats as loadout items and only offer weapon choices which appeal more to a player's sense of preference as opposed to an attempt at forcing roles I think they'd retain a much larger userbase post-release.

 

Now perks? We'd all be better off without these. Things like disabling a player's ability to collect loose grenades should be an option under the "player traits" section of custom gametypes, not a default standard that furthers the nerf culture by forcing us to unlock something that Halo players take for granted.

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Universal movement abilities>Armor abilites

 

Spawning with a jetpack, camo, or shield will never be balanced and will never make sense for a Sandbox game.

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i don't care if AAs are spawned with (the notion that they can never be balanced is just bias; people always confuse "unbalanced" as "unskillful"/"unhalo") or on the map, but either way AA usage needs to be limited.

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i don't care if AAs are spawned with (the notion that they can never be balanced is just bias; people always confuse "unbalanced" as "unskillful"/"unhalo") or on the map, but either way AA usage needs to be limited.

 

It doesnt matter if its bias or not. IF AA's are going to be spawn integrated they will make the game worse 99% guaranteed. The railgun is a good concept too for example, but the way its implemented in  h4 makes its sub-par to what It could have been if done right.

It doesnt matter if they COULD but good it matters how they WILL be. And I think most here agree that if any kind of AA's are in H5 they are going to be at best thruster pack/evade and at worst promethean vision/armor lock.

With the latter quite a bit more likely mind you.

Why would anyone who enjoys a balanced and competitive game want AA's in this case?

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AA's need to be scrapped forever IMO. Halo should NEVER have been turned into a class based shooter.

I agree. Halo is an arena based shooter, where everyone starts the game on equal grounds and have to use SKILL and TEAM WORK to grab weapons/power ups to have a legitimate advantage.

 

Leave that "Rock, paper, scissors" shit to the games that have had that mechanic since day 1(COD, Battlefield, etc.)

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It doesnt matter if its bias or not. IF AA's are going to be spawn integrated they will make the game worse 99% guaranteed. The railgun is a good concept too for example, but the way its implemented in  h4 makes its sub-par to what It could have been if done right.

It doesnt matter if they COULD but good it matters how they WILL be. And I think most here agree that if any kind of AA's are in H5 they are going to be at best thruster pack/evade and at worst promethean vision/armor lock.

With the latter quite a bit more likely mind you.

Why would anyone who enjoys a balanced and competitive game want AA's in this case?

 

the topic isn't "will 343i implement AAs well?". this is ur own bias speaking; it's clear you don't like AAs therefore you make the strawman argument that the inclusion of AAs in any shape or form has a high chance/will be detrimental to the game. i could make my own irrelevant argument about how it's going to be implemented anyway because of 343i's (stupid) wheelchair halo ideology, but that wud follow another non-sequitur topic of "is 343i going to implement AAs?".

 

the facts are;

  • some people like AAs.
  • custom gametype options/playlists allow those who dislike AAs to not play with them
  • just because AAs aren't "traditional halo" doesnt mean it is imbalanced or unskillful. now im not dumb and i'm in full agreement with the rest of the forum about how a series needs to retain the integrity of the core, so ill simply refer to the point above this one

therefore i say yes the next halo title should have AAs (and obviously only if they're not blatantly overpowered/completely destroy traditional halo - and again i urge u not to jump to another 'AAs always suck' post because that's simply not true).

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the topic isn't "will 343i implement AAs well?". this is ur own bias speaking; it's clear you don't like AAs therefore you make the strawman argument that the inclusion of AAs in any shape or form has a high chance/will be detrimental to the game. i could make my own irrelevant argument about how it's going to be implemented anyway because of 343i's (stupid) wheelchair halo ideology, but that wud follow another non-sequitur topic of "is 343i going to implement AAs?".

 

the facts are;

  • some people like AAs.
  • custom gametype options/playlists allow those who dislike AAs to not play with them
  • just because AAs aren't "traditional halo" doesnt mean it is imbalanced or unskillful. now im not dumb and i'm in full agreement with the rest of the forum about how a series needs to retain the integrity of the core, so ill simply refer to the point above this one

therefore i say yes the next halo title should have AAs (and obviously only if they're not blatantly overpowered/completely destroy traditional halo - and again i urge u not to jump to another 'AAs always suck' post because that's simply not true).

 

Custom game options cant change a core aspect of the combat like AA's are in HR+H4. You are right that AA's are not inherently unbalanced or OP but if you put the option to spawn with a jetpack,camo, or shield in an Arena-style shooter that previously had equal starts and map design/weapon lay-outs built around uniform player traits there is going to be huge problems with that shooter and the core fan-base is not going to like it. The fact that Halo was built around a Sandbox-style rather than the hybrid load-out/Sandbox style Reach+H4 have failed to make work just makes the addition of spawning with combat-changing abilities even worse. Its like there is a monkey-wrench in every battle now, you could of "out-played" your opponent by traditional Halo standards but ooops now hes got the HLS to save his life, now hes got jet-pack to get top mid control back from any angle, now hes got prom vision to anticipate your flanks without having to be aware of it, it just destroys the mental game of Halo much like sprint does on a smaller scale.

 

I think univeral movement abilities like Utk4 had with the dodge-jump would be a more suitable mechanic for Halo with power-ups/equipment on the map than AA's which tend to ruin the simplicity of Halo combat and make the game some-what more RPG-like than DM FPS.

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Custom game options cant change a core aspect of the combat like AA's are in HR+H4. You are right that AA's are not inherently unbalanced or OP but if you put the option to spawn with a jetpack,camo, or shield in an Arena-style shooter that previously had equal starts and map design/weapon lay-outs built around uniform player traits there is going to be huge problems with that shooter and the core fan-base is not going to like it. The fact that Halo was built around a Sandbox-style rather than the hybrid load-out/Sandbox style Reach+H4 have failed to make work just makes the addition of spawning with combat-changing abilities even worse. Its like there is a money-wrench in every battle now, you could of "out-played" your opponent by traditional Halo standards but ooops now hes got the HLS to save his life, now hes got jet-pack to get top mid control back from any angle, now hes got prom vision to anticipate your flanks without having to be aware of it, it just destroys the mental game of Halo much like sprint does on a smaller scale.

 

I think univeral movement abilities like Utk4 had with the dodge-jump would be a more suitable mechanic for Halo with power-ups/equipment on the map than AA's which tend to ruin the simplicity of Halo combat and make the game some-what more RPG-like than DM FPS.

 

i agree with you, however a core aspect is only a core aspect if it's non-optional, hard-programmed, and in a majority of playlists. if AAs can be added as an /addition/ rather than a replacement, then there really is no reason against them. i obviously don't support forcing a player like yourself who is a fan of h2/3 to play 343i's new halo, but at the same time i dont think its fair to have the inverse either. this is totally my opinion, but i think the general trend in gaming is an increase in both cosmetic and structural (totes made that term up, but i mean the 'structure of gameplay') customisation and in order for halo to succeed (in other words, become more 'RPG-like'), it needs to try adapt to this WHILST keeping the integrity of its core. yes, sounds impossible and highly contradictory, but there must be a way.

 

i personally think universal movement abilities are bad/even less necessary than AAs/hardly impactual enough on gameplay to justify being added, including sprint. it de-emphasises strafe and seems to go against the core of halo as well, which is essentially fluent and efficient movement options - not press X to sprint/dash/double-jump/somersault/360parkour.

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i agree with you, however a core aspect is only a core aspect if it's non-optional, hard-programmed, and in a majority of playlists. if AAs can be added as an /addition/ rather than a replacement, then there really is no reason against them. i obviously don't support forcing a player like yourself who is a fan of h2/3 to play 343i's new halo, but at the same time i dont think its fair to have the inverse either. this is totally my opinion, but i think the general trend in gaming is an increase in both cosmetic and structural (totes made that term up, but i mean the 'structure of gameplay') customisation and in order for halo to succeed (in other words, become more 'RPG-like'), it needs to try adapt to this WHILST keeping the integrity of its core. yes, sounds impossible and highly contradictory, but there must be a way.

 

i personally think universal movement abilities are bad/even less necessary than AAs/hardly impactual enough on gameplay to justify being added, including sprint. it de-emphasises strafe and seems to go against the core of halo as well, which is essentially fluent and efficient movement options - not press X to sprint/dash/double-jump/somersault/360parkour.

 

 In basically every play-list but MLG/TTD in Reach+H4 I am picking an AA off spawn, we may be able to get rid of AA's in comp settings but it doesn't change the fact that 95 percent of the other play-lists have them so its basically a core aspect of combat in HR+H4. 

 

When I say universal movement abilities i dont mean anything like "press x to do y" and i would much rather have H2- style movement that is naturally versatile and quick like you said, but I would much rather build off the movement scheme in a natural way that applies to all players like wall-jumping than go the ability route. 

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the topic isn't "will 343i implement AAs well?". this is ur own bias speaking; it's clear you don't like AAs therefore you make the strawman argument that the inclusion of AAs in any shape or form has a high chance/will be detrimental to the game. i could make my own irrelevant argument about how it's going to be implemented anyway because of 343i's (stupid) wheelchair halo ideology, but that wud follow another non-sequitur topic of "is 343i going to implement AAs?".

 

the facts are;

  • some people like AAs.
  • custom gametype options/playlists allow those who dislike AAs to not play with them
  • just because AAs aren't "traditional halo" doesnt mean it is imbalanced or unskillful. now im not dumb and i'm in full agreement with the rest of the forum about how a series needs to retain the integrity of the core, so ill simply refer to the point above this one

therefore i say yes the next halo title should have AAs (and obviously only if they're not blatantly overpowered/completely destroy traditional halo - and again i urge u not to jump to another 'AAs always suck' post because that's simply not true).

 

This actually isnt my bias speaking, I actually enjoy certain AA's to an extent. I was always the dude grabbing evade/jetpack in Reach and I was kinda bummed that they got rid of the evade with the NBNS settings even though it was arguably pretty OP with 120 speed. I also was a much better player Pre Tu-Reach but I quickly realized that NBNS was superior competitivly. ( Remember when sprint was still an AA? - Those were times)

I'm only speaking of Reach because imo the AA's in H4 throwdown settings have basicly 0 inpact on the game. Arguing for H4 AA's with custom loadouts  isnt something I can bring myself to do because its just like Reach default just worse.

But this just goes back to what I mentioned earlier - they can work, ( if you limit them to a powerup-esque use) but have people spawn with them and all hell breaks loose.

 

Just played a game yesterday of Ragnarok Neutral Flag and the enemy hid the flag in their base with camo and scattershots guarding the flag and spawners insta crouch camoing with light rifles ontop of every single sniper headglitching with camo behind some ledge as soon it spawned.

Now, Im a "good" halo player compared to the clueless players usually playing outside of Throwdown/customs so I still did better than their whole team. The point though is that this was not fun and especially not competitive at all - they just abused a mechanic to kill everyone else's fun.

And like you said yourself, the "wheelchair halo ideology" is the EXACT REASON WHY we will have atleast as many of these situations in the next game if they give it another try.

 

Regarding your "facts", and I've seen you post this multiple times, you are one of the only people on this forum who thinks there are many people on this forum or playing halo generally ( that have any idea how the game works) who would make the statement "I like what AA's do for Halo"

Casuals dont count because casuals dont care if a game has AAs or not or if it has sprint they will play it if the campaign is fun and then go back to playing COD.

 

I rephrased your statement like that because this is the only way you should be looking at mechanics and features when talking about a specific game.

 

"custom gametype options/playlists allow those who dislike AAs to not play with them" is putting the cart before the horse.

We need 100% solid non bs DEFAULT playlists. Then we can give the tools to do whatever crazy shit they want in customs.

 

I have personally not seen anyone actually make a relevant argument for custom choice AA spawns. All I hear is people like you saying "and again i urge u not to jump to another 'AAs always suck' post because that's simply not true"

 

Provide me with an argument how an implementation of AAs that atleast has somewhat of a chance of happening for H5 and I'll listen, but right now all the  evidence is pointing against any kind of fun/competitive implementation of AA's

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snickers

but we're talking about a hypothetical halo 5, where AAs dont have to be in every playlist :/

 

i wudnt call it building off in a 'natural way'. i do see AAs as being a natural addition to the golden triangle.

 

 

sniper rifle

agreed with your 1st paragraph. i basically stopped playing team slayer once i found the mlg playlist (which lucky for me was when v7 was just implemented).

to your last sentence, the universal problem with AAs is they're limitless and they're unpredictable. i wud no longer define their easy obtainable nature as being another problem, since really that's only from the perspective of traditional halo fans (who cannot possibly comprehend that the developer cud have majority of playlists AA-less). what if players cud choose what AAs they'd spawn with, but the AAs have a battery (like plasma weapons) and physically appear on the back of a SPARTAN or an icon of the ability appears next to the owner's name on the leaderboard? add to that what if it was only a third of the playlists that had AAs and AAs were able to be toggled off in custom games?

 

neither disregarding casuals or putting the word in quotation marks disprove my facts. i noe this forum hates AAs. ive got silentraine lord of negging-over-opinions try to get my rep to single digits. but i also noe people (like myself, and mostly casual) who like AAs, and though they may be the 1% that's never stopped the competitive community from voicing their opinions. i am a casual and i didnt finish the campaign then go back to cod, and that is incredibly fucking elitist for you to generalise.

 

for the cart thing, my dear sir, i am in total agreement with you! just because i like AAs doesn't mean i want you to be forced to play with something you dislike. what exactly do you think my vision of halo 5 is? every playlist to have AAs + default sprint and a healthy dosage of aim-down-sights?

 

i don't like spewing my ideas on these forums because unless i'm chaostheory or the idea is "remove flinch" i'm going to get spat on my face. and i'm not asking for people who think my ideas to be stupid to think otherwise, i mean guys will come into my threads and write 'lol u suck. *snide remark about me going back to waypoint*' rather than 'i disagree, and i recognise you are just brainstorming'.

the only argument i can make for AAs is that some people enjoy them, which in the end is the argument for everything in a game.

 

ur changing the topic again to "will 343i implement AAs well?", to which i wud answer fuck no alongside you. but fix these three problems with AAs:

  • limitless usage - can fix by requiring picking up fuel canisters or something from the map, or just limiting them to one-time use
  • unpredictability - can fix by having a player's current AA being indicated
  • unhaloness - can fix by having them be on-map pickups, be only a minority of playlists, and/or be turned off in customs

and i really don't see why u'd still have a problem with them. also AAs are fun in campaign :3

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Your ideas about AA's working in Halo are completely false, 2 back to back titles Reach, Halo 4, have proven they are complete trash ideas and fall extremely short of Power Up's and Equipment. AA's have no reason to be kept in Halo, and no they are not a natural progression for Halo or part of the core triangle mechanics, it is called a triangle for a reason, Guns, Grenades, Melees,.

I do not agree with how you have responded to those who are against the idea of AA's Ghostie, you have attacked members for literally no reason other than the fact they dislike what these terrible gimmicks and additions have turned a long loved franchise into. My reasons for giving you a couple negative reps in this thread is clear, I feel people with such bad attitudes and lack of understanding about what truly is dragging this franchises face into hell are the main reason Halo is in the shape it is now. Things like AA's are only adding onto that massive reason for Halo's failure for the last 2 titles and lack of population and awful game play, developer maps, witnessed as well.

No one should have to keep suffering or have their enjoyment of such a great series ruined because of a couple casual players who do not understand the core of Halo or function of a balanced sandbox cant just go enjoy their gimmicks in Custom Games. This community deserves alot better than to have to deal with another Halo Reach/4 once Halo 5 drops, and its 343's last chance to prove they can make a actual Halo game, no one wants to see another game full of terrible gimmicks or broken game play and that is quite easy to understand.

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I'd like it if the AA's were map pick-ups, like power weapons. Basically, how it was in MLG Reach.

Picking up sprint as a power up sounds quite good actually.

Being able to sprint for like 30 secs with a 2 min timer? :/

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Picking up sprint as a power up sounds quite good actually.

Being able to sprint for like 30 secs with a 2 min timer? :/

I'd still prefer powerups such as OS/Camo/Speed Boost instead of a Sprint powerup. 

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Picking up sprint as a power up sounds quite good actually.

Being able to sprint for like 30 secs with a 2 min timer? :/

 

Speedboost really does everything sprint does in much better manner.

I think AA powerups should be things like jetpack/thruster/evade because they offer more unique movement options like the awesome ryanoob countdown flag run or (albeit much less amazing) the thruster from bottom mid lift to window on haven. Aslong as people have to EARN the AA it mostly fine imo.

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Speedboost really does everything sprint does in much better manner.

I think AA powerups should be things like jetpack/thruster/evade because they offer more unique movement options like the awesome ryanoob countdown flag run or (albeit much less amazing) the thruster from bottom mid lift to window on haven. Aslong as people have to EARN the AA it mostly fine imo.

Yeah thats true.

but still, it wouldve probably been better if the implemented it as a power up instead of a loadout usage...

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