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@amanda bynes: firstly ur username is wat

 

secondly ur logic is founded on the belief that because a certain mechanic is common across all players, it is balanced and benefits all players. im here to tell you it is false. sprint benefits bad players a lot more because

1. it weakens the significance of map control, since positions are harder to defend. thus controlling map positions will require less effort but also yield less benefits, and this means players require less spatial awareness and good positioning ability.

2. it drops the chasing player's weapon. a player is forced to lower their weapon to give chase to a kill. aside from slowing down the game, it also means bad players have more opportunities to get away from a bad position.

3. the probability that a bad player can catch a good player in a bad position, and then out-rifle him are slim. based on probability alone, bad players will have more frequent uses for escaping with sprint and thus sprint is exploited more by bad players.

4. for every situation a good player escapes with sprint, being a good player he'd most likely have escaped without sprint anyways. so the premise that sprint allows both good and bad players to escape in more situations is flawed, as a good player can already escape from a lot of those situations without sprint.

 

in essence sprint makes only bad players better, actually nerfing good players by cheating them of kills that they should have gotten on a sprinting-away bad player, whilst not cheating a bad player's kill on a good player as without sprint the good player would have escaped anyhow.

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Sprint is annoying it ruins Halo by being annoying. The reason Halo became so shitty is because it went from being a straight forward game to being a cheap game. Sprint, Armor lock, Jetpack, Active camo, the DMR(halo 4), Boltshot, Uneven "perks". The reason Halo was so successful is it was straight forward and not cheap. They killed Halo by making it harder to get kills and making it where you could get unfairly killed. Casuals and Competitive players both hate that.

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Sprint =/= Personal infinite use teleporter

 

 

WTF? Where'd you get that from?

 

Quake has no utility weapon, no shield regeneration, control of items focused on powerups rather than weapons, various movement tricks (rocket jumping, air control, circle jumping, etc), no true scope mechanic, no headshots, etc etc.

Don't take it so literally, it's not a console port of quake, it's THE fps to grace consoles since quake that still tried to carry its style of play, but dumbed down things like movement speed.

 

The way I see it, you don't have to start with the pistol. Normally with the AR. Halo has health packs, quake has health packs. Halo has shields/over shields/ quake has armor and red armor power ups. Rain gun has headshot multiplier, and you move to gain weapons power ups and prevent your opponent from getting them. Halos sniper also has headshot multiplier, and you also play forvl the weapons/power ups.

 

 

The only comparison I was trying to make was that in both, you play the game by controlling the map and weapons in an arena setting. You have similar weapons and high kill times. You don't have any advanced movement system, but we have the most in depth spawn system out of any game. At the time, besides unreal on ps2, there were mostly no other console games that used this playstyle.

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Don't take it so literally, it's not a console port of quake, it's THE fps to grace consoles since quake that still tried to carry its style of play, but dumbed down things like movement speed.

 

The way I see it, you don't have to start with the pistol. Normally with the AR. Halo has health packs, quake has health packs. Halo has shields/over shields/ quake has armor and red armor power ups. Rain gun has headshot multiplier, and you move to gain weapons power ups and prevent your opponent from getting them. Halos sniper also has headshot multiplier, and you also play forvl the weapons/power ups.

 

 

The only comparison I was trying to make was that in both, you play the game by controlling the map and weapons in an arena setting. You have similar weapons and high kill times. You don't have any advanced movement system, but we have the most in depth spawn system out of any game. At the time, besides unreal on ps2, there were mostly no other console games that used this playstyle.

 

Quake has no health packs. If you're talking about the Mega Health, that would just go under overshields seeing as the health is being added on to your starting 125. Railgun has no headshot multiplier last time I played Quake. Moving to gain weapons is like every good FPS (sadly not "omg brs only" maps these days, although that's irrelevant). 

 

If you're arguing Halo is closer to Quake than other console FPS, fine. That's mostly true. Halo was certainly not Quake, though.

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Quake has no health packs. If you're talking about the Mega Health, that would just go under overshields seeing as the health is being added on to your starting 125. Railgun has no headshot multiplier last time I played Quake. Moving to gain weapons is like every good FPS (sadly not "omg brs only" maps these days, although that's irrelevant). 

 

If you're arguing Halo is closer to Quake than other console FPS, fine. That's mostly true. Halo was certainly not Quake, though.

 

I don't know why you still chose to take it literally, but whatever. If there's one thing I've learned about talking to quake fans is that no matter what, I'm wrong.

 

Quake has multiple versions. Quake III has more than mega health, it has health packs in increments of 5 and 25. 

 

Raingun I can be mistaken with, I thought headshots were instagibs.

 

 

It's weird because you say as long as I'm using halo as a comparison towards other console games, you're ok with it, but it's Halo 1 is not quake. You realize I never said that right? I said a console knockoff that shared the some fundamentals. I even clarified saying I didn't claim Halo = quake port. So again, why take it so literal?

 

Movement for weapons is in every other good FPS?

 

  • Rainbow Six series
  • Call of Duty
  • Battlefield
  • Socom
  • Counterstrike
  • Ghost Recon series
  • Shadowrun
  • Monday Night Combat

 

What other good modern console FPS has movement for weapons and power ups besides Gears? 

 

I never claimed quake and halo were that close, it just shares a similar basic meta on how to win, while the depth and knowledge needed in each game varies in different aspects. Quake had incredible depth for it's movement while Halo had incredible depth with it's spawn system, as well as grenade physics that allowed you to obtain all the weapons on the map in quake like speed.

 

If i want to be incredibly literal, then yes of course quake =/= halo 1. However if I wanted to recognize the similarities, I could certainly name a lot.

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Dont worry guys, when they add this new perk that removes stopping power all will be good in the world!

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I agree with everything stated above. It's not secret Halo's 1-3 were vastly more popular than Reach, and that was more popular than Halo 4.

 

Loadouts, combined with sprint and descoping simply ruin what makes Halo, Halo. But, if 343 is unwilling to change these things they'll be left with a dead game, and probably series. And the problem now is, kids who started playing during Halo Reach are now accustomed to sprint and "Bad Halo" and might not enjoy actual Halo.

 

Either way, Halo 5 needs a number of things to be successful but removing sprint and descope is a huge part of that. I only hope 343 will actually listen to the competitive community. They obviously could use our input because the population of this game is pitiful. 

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Dont worry guys, when they add this new perk that removes stopping power all will be good in the world!

 

#Bravosavinghalo

 

#Frankiecaresaboutusguize

 

#H4vef4ith

 

#Bepositive

 

#Itistime

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I recently played some no sprint customs.. The game plays 2-3x better without sprint.

I've watched NS game types and I really don't like them. A base movement speed of 120, 125, 126, it just looks like everyone has a speed boost. It was also increasingly difficult for players to consistently hit shots with such a huge speed increase. It was like Spartans on segways :-P

 

I'm not saying keep sprint, I'm just saying that in my opinion, increasing the base speed to accommodate for bigger maps, isn't a very good solution.

 

If we're going to have no sprint game types, maps should be made to cater to NS.

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I've watched NS game types and I really don't like them. A base movement speed of 120, 125, 126, it just looks like everyone has a speed boost. It was also increasingly difficult for players to consistently hit shots with such a huge speed increase. It was like Spartans on segways :-P

 

I'm not saying keep sprint, I'm just saying that in my opinion, increasing the base speed to accommodate for bigger maps, isn't a very good solution.

 

If we're going to have no sprint game types, maps should be made to cater to NS.

I 4 shot people plenty of times with 120% ms and I'm not that great. I also think the smaller spartan size (promod v2 settings) work amazing. Better strafes. You shouldn't hit every shot and it really isn't that fast of a movement. Not even comparable to speed boost imo. I know what you are saying, but you need to try playing it yourself first.

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I agree with everything you've said ciutchism.  Here's my own two cents about sprint:

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/1id153/legendary_slayer_has_made_me_love_this_game_again/cb3k5sr

 

 

The only problem is that I honestly believe that sprint is here to stay, and that 343 has already decided to keep it in for halo 5. (they will also more than likely keep loadouts/perks) I Think descope will return, but I have zero hope for no sprint.

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I never claimed quake and halo were that close, it just shares a similar basic meta on how to win, while the depth and knowledge needed in each game varies in different aspects. Quake had incredible depth for it's movement while Halo had incredible depth with it's spawn system, as well as grenade physics that allowed you to obtain all the weapons on the map in quake like speed.

I think depth of movement is the main point when discussing this as it forms the why. Although people dislike it's implementation, 'Sprint' is one answer to major downfall of Halo - shallow depth of movement. Not speaking directly to you but as competitive players we should be looking to progress the game increasing depth in all areas. Simply reverting back to basics doesn't achieve this, but sadly that's where this conversation usually ends up.

 

The THC Sprint thread started a decent conversation about movement mechanics before it ran out of steam. Starting from the beginning; 

 

Why Introduce a Stamina System?

 

That's the entire point of Sprint, having a risk / reward system.

 

Yes similar results can be achieved by upping the base movement but a combination of the two systems in some form would be ideal (for me at least). Reasoning for this is simply increased complexity in the action and thought process behind that action. In all top arena shooters there is a skill to be mastered within movement that transcends the basics. It usually appears in PC shooters as a manipulation of the physics engine (see bunny hopping, russian walking, rocket jumping) and takes considerable time and effort to 'master' to the point that the top end of players still have distinct division by this skill set alone.

 

Halo in terms of movement and physics, although basic, is rigidly set in its ways. So the only way to improve on the movement options is to add to them - a stamina system is born. With Sprint in its current form, advantages at a basic level require you to press and time a combination of buttons in order to perform some actions (Sprint jumps to cover gaps, stutter stepping e.t.c) and to a certain extent (less in this game) you're required to control your stamina. The main advantage of Sprint as it is presented to us is the extra consideration that it brings to the game. Before Sprinting you must consider your position in the game in relation to your opposition / teammates / objectives / position to decide if it is OK to remove your ability to shoot for a short period to move to another position on the map quicker than it would otherwise.

 

What you see as a negative (not being allowed to shoot) is a choice that allows better players another avenue to beat out lesser players thus improving the game. When Reach started I believe it was BTH that refused to Sprint calling it a "death trap". Then as the meta developed and they became more familiar with how it worked in relation to the game they found situations, lanes, areas in which Sprinting was beneficial and used it like everyone else.

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absolutely agree with you careh. everyone is stubbornly intent on sticking to either 'sprint', 'sprint in casual games only', and 'no sprint'. why not:

a} get rid of sprint

b} introduce a new mechanic that is truly innovative to FPS and adds depth to movement, such as double-jumping or a default thruster pack

c} balance that mechanic. yes before anyone says 'oh but double-jumping/t-pack is op' well they can be fucking modified or balanced to suit halo's core

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Quake has no health packs.

Small Health - Adds 5 health to a maximum of 200.

Yellow Health - Adds 25 health to a maximum of 100

Gold Health - Adds 50 health to a maximum of 100.

Mega Health - Adds 100 health to a maximum of 200.

 

No health packs?

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Small Health - Adds 5 health to a maximum of 200.

Yellow Health - Adds 25 health to a maximum of 100

Gold Health - Adds 50 health to a maximum of 100.

Mega Health - Adds 100 health to a maximum of 200.

 

No health packs?

 

I meant the stuff that auto sets your health to max and starts recharging your shields. Obviously there are health pickups on the map :p

 

Good thing you got that cleared up, though, that wasn't the greatest wording at all on my part.

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I meant the stuff that auto sets your health to max and starts recharging your shields. Obviously there are health pickups on the map :P

 

Good thing you got that cleared up, though, that wasn't the greatest wording at all on my part.

Health packs in CE didn't begin recharging your shields. Although they did function differently in each game.

In CE, they had no affect to your shield

In ODST, they instantly recharged both health and stamina

In Reach, they instantly recharge health and began shield recharge.

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absolutely agree with you careh. everyone is stubbornly intent on sticking to either 'sprint', 'sprint in casual games only', and 'no sprint'. why not:

a} get rid of sprint

b} introduce a new mechanic that is truly innovative to FPS and adds depth to movement, such as double-jumping or a default thruster pack

c} balance that mechanic. yes before anyone says 'oh but double-jumping/t-pack is op' well they can be fucking modified or balanced to suit halo's core

 

Do you want competitive Halo to die for good? Thruster packs off spawn would be the final nail in the coffin.

 

Brainstorm all the extraneous movement ideas you want, they're not the least bit necessary for Halo to be good again.

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Careh I feel adding a stamina system helps, but doesn't fix the main issue some players have with it being viewed as a defensive ability. Any form of sprint + the duration it takes for the reticule to pop up + a corner = defensive play. A stamina system would help slightly but I still feel like we need more to make it offensive rather than defensive. I'd be fine with your reticule popping up instantly, along with a combination of the stamina system, although ideally I would like to see sprint removed all together.

 

 

I know it's just going back to the basic movement we've had in prior games, but Halo never had any extreme depth in movement. (unless halo 2 jump tactics was your thing) As much as I would want a deeper for of movement, I don't want to drastically change the style in which halo is played. I think making it play like quake would be great for the skill gap, but this is a console shooter and I feel it would hurt the series population. Same if they finalized the teleport AA. I think that would be great for the meta but we just changed how halo plays completely.

 

If 343 wants to take notes, they just just offer multiple play lists with varying mechanics and let players try a bit of everything.

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A bit off topic, but 'depth' is rapidly becoming my new favorite Halo community buzzword. What makes it doubly entertaining is that the people running that word into the ground are usually the ones proposing all these dumb bells and whistles for future titles, as if that's what Halo needs to get back on track. Sorry guys, but more shit does not automatically equal more depth. In fact I'm more inclined to think the opposite is true.

 

Some of my other favorites:

-Balanced (everyone's definition is different and subjective)

-Fresh (i don't even)

-Innovative (just about everything that would Halo a quality competitive game again has already been done right in at least one previous Halo title)

 

Sorry, just had to get that out of my system. Please continue.

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Balance and depth are important, but yeah it's the way in which you reach both. Cluttering the sandbox with dozens of weapons doesn't automatically balance the game, and more features =/= depth.

 

I use those terms a lot though myself. We need to find ways of removing useless features and mechanics, while adding or retaining depth. It's hard when a lot of the depth in past halos were either accidental or hidden

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So. Grenades. Should they go different distances based on whether you're sprinting, moving forward, standing still, moving backwards etc?

 

Would the super throw mechanic be good to have in the next Halo in some form or another?

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