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Glitches like the superthrow are debatable because essentially it's a glitch and many people seem to be anti glitch, however it does add depth to the game. You'd be able to throw grenades across the map and through tiny areas due to how the grenade's trajectory arcs from the super throw.

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Glitches like the superthrow are debatable because essentially it's a glitch and many people seem to be anti glitch, however it does add depth to the game.

 

No, it adds a variable to the game. Variables =/= depth.

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No, it adds a variable to the game. Variables =/= depth.

 

Out of curiosity - How much ammo you have left in your clip before you reload is a variable. Should we remove reloading?

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No, it adds a variable to the game. Variables =/= depth.

 

A variable that adds a component that wasn't originally there can add depth, but I don't know much about the glitch. From my understanding, it allows you to throw a grenade super fast and travels a great distance. Does it have any effect if you super nade off a wall or on the ground? The way I see it, you could possibly super grenade glitch a nade into an area that wasn't possible before, meaning throwing a Papa John Bomb all the way across the map into a small window.

 

I see different kinds of grenades as variables, I see the ability to manipulate the speed and distance of a grenade as a variable that adds depth to the grenade game.

 

 

I could also argue that glitches like the BXR were not only a variable, but added depth to the close range game.

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Out of curiosity - How much ammo you have left in your clip before you reload is a variable. Should we remove reloading?

 

Not one that has any meaningful impact on the game.

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A variable that adds a component that wasn't originally there can add depth, but I don't know much about the glitch. From my understanding, it allows you to throw a grenade super fast and travels a great distance. Does it have any effect if you super nade off a wall or on the ground? The way I see it, you could possibly super grenade glitch a nade into an area that wasn't possible before, meaning throwing a Papa John Bomb all the way across the map into a small window.

 

I see different kinds of grenades as variables, I see the ability to manipulate the speed and distance of a grenade as a variable that adds depth to the grenade game.

 

 

I could also argue that glitches like the BXR were not only a variable, but added depth to the close range game.

 

Are you deliberately saying 'depth' as many times as you can just to annoy me? Seriously, stop with the buzzwords.

 

Variables can add depth, but that doesn't mean that they do. How the hell that super grenade glitch good for competition? Jesus christ, did Lockout sword flying add 'depth' to the game too?

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Are you deliberately saying 'depth' as many times as you can just to annoy me? Seriously, stop with the buzzwords.

 

Variables can add depth, but that doesn't mean that they do. How the hell that super grenade glitch good for competition? Jesus christ, did Lockout sword flying add 'depth' to the game too?

what to you does add depth?

 

Not all glitches are good for competitions. I never said that or made any example out of the sword glitch (lockout not needed) added great depth to the game, although it was used as a variable in order to experience areas of the game that would have never been reachable. 

 

If you refuse to see that variables can create depth, than there is no point of going further. I'm not saying the all will create depth, but some can.

 

Like I said I don't know the super throw well enough know all the depth it provides, but it's the similar way in which double shotting or bxr/bxb adds a level of depth through variables. Grenades expand past their current roles and are now able to be throw in places that were no longer possible. I only assume doing a super throw could make the grenade bounce farther off the wall, or off the ground, allowing you the ability not only bank a grenade, but choose whether to bank it just around the corner, or deep into a hallway.

 

I don't see how the glitch wouldn't create new instances for grenade use, especially when you can use the glitch to throw a grenade quickly across a distance in which you would have been too slow to throw that grenade with the stock throw.

 

 

Just like with every glitch, you wouldn't know the full level of depth it added until it was tested extensively.

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what to you does add depth?

 

Not all glitches are good for competitions. I never said that or made any example out of the sword glitch (lockout not needed) added great depth to the game, although it was used as a variable in order to experience areas of the game that would have never been reachable. 

 

If you refuse to see that variables can create depth, than there is no point of going further. I'm not saying the all will create depth, but some can.

 

Like I said I don't know the super throw well enough know all the depth it provides, but it's the similar way in which double shotting or bxr/bxb adds a level of depth through variables. Grenades expand past their current roles and are now able to be throw in places that were no longer possible. I only assume doing a super throw could make the grenade bounce farther off the wall, or off the ground, allowing you the ability not only bank a grenade, but choose whether to bank it just around the corner, or deep into a hallway.

 

I don't see how the glitch wouldn't create new instances for grenade use, especially when you can use the glitch to throw a grenade quickly across a distance in which you would have been too slow to throw that grenade with the stock throw.

 

 

Just like with every glitch, you wouldn't know the full level of depth it added until it was tested extensively.

 

I'm pretty sure this was the exact line of thought used to justify armor abilities.

 

Let me be more blunt about it: this particular variable you're proposing is garbage.

 

Also, lol button combos. They haven't made any Halo game better.

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I'm pretty sure this was the exact line of thought used to justify armor abilities.

 

Let me be more blunt about it: this particular variable you're proposing is garbage.

 

Also, lol button combos. They haven't made any Halo game better.

 

Then we can agree to disagree.

 

I think button glitches added depth to the game by changing the balance of weapons in close range combat. I think the reduction of animation times and the ability to push the game faster than what was intended helped add to the skill gap, and quicken the pace of the game.

 

You can think the proposal is garbage, but as it is, people generally feel halo 4 nades are weak. The proposal at least makes them a tiny bit more useful.

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So instead of just making grenades stronger in the next game, there needs to be dumb glitch built in? Makes total sense.

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Is this the Halo 5 wish-list thread?

 

I appreciate the effort, but you're grasping for things in which I haven't said.

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So instead of just making grenades stronger in the next game, there needs to be dumb glitch built in? Makes total sense.

 

Why does it need to be implemented as a glitch? Why not give it an animation with a time and a throwing speed less ridiculous than the one we got in the beginning of H4?

 

I'm not sure why you think this would break the game, could you explain? I'm just curious, I don't have a strong opinion on this and I'm trying to understand both arguments.

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Actually I forgot what the title of the thread was.

 

Super grenades are still a ridiculous idea though.

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Why does it need to be implemented as a glitch? Why not give it an animation with a time and a throwing speed less ridiculous than the one we got in the beginning of H4 (perhaps closer to grenade launcher speed?)?

 

Why not just make them stronger? Would that not add enough 'depth'?

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Why not just make them stronger? Would that not add enough 'depth'?

 

I think the point of the mechanic teapot is proposing is to allow people to throw nades more effectively long distance. Obviously short range stronger nades would be just as effective as super throw nades that can be thrown further on corners, but at long range there's usually no point in throwing a nade unless it's to get a weapon down (haven't seen much of that in this game) because most people wouldn't stay in one place for very long. I guess the super throw and stronger nades are solving a problem different ways then?

 

Anyways (unrelated to the above), what is a suitable replacement for "depth"? I agree that it doesn't mean too much, but I don't know what would work in its place. Meaningful options, perhaps?

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I think the point of the mechanic teapot is proposing is to allow people to throw nades more effectively long distance. Obviously short range stronger nades would be just as effective as super throw nades that can be thrown further on corners, but at long range there's usually no point in throwing a nade unless it's to get a weapon down (haven't seen much of that in this game) because most people wouldn't stay in one place for very long. I guess the super throw and stronger nades are solving a problem different ways then?

 

Anyways (unrelated to the above), what is a suitable replacement for "depth"? I agree that it doesn't mean too much, but I don't know what would work in its place. Meaningful options, perhaps?

 

How is that a problem, exactly? Should we be brainstorming glitches to make the shotgun more effective at range too, while we're at it?

 

Most of the people who throw around the word depth don't really know what it means, it just sounds classier and it's more subtle than telling people to adapt, which is what most of the posts I'm talking about boil down to.

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absolutely agree with you careh. everyone is stubbornly intent on sticking to either 'sprint', 'sprint in casual games only', and 'no sprint'. why not:

a} get rid of sprint

b} introduce a new mechanic that is truly innovative to FPS and adds depth to movement, such as double-jumping or a default thruster pack

c} balance that mechanic. yes before anyone says 'oh but double-jumping/t-pack is op' well they can be fucking modified or balanced to suit halo's core

I can't nod to that thruster pack either. Anything that alows someone to evade by the use if a button instead of logically defending yourself needs to go.

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Yeah thruster pack is cool at first, but it really is too easy to evade with it. It would be much better to just have quicker strafing implemented in the game.

 

As far as the word "depth" is concerned- I agree that people use it as a copout for solid reasoning.  Instead, try and argue that a mechanic will increase the skill gap, as well as still keeping the core gameplay nonrandom and balanced.

 

I would personally argue that button combos add to the skill gap, however they do not make the game unbalanced since it's difficult to pull them off.  IT's a risk vs reward game here- the easier things to do should give you less reward (aiming an AR at someone) and the more difficult things to do should give you more reward (pulling off a double-shot, fighting with your team to aquire the power weapon, etc.)  <--- that's "balance".

 

Since button combos add to the skill gap while retaining balance (since they are more difficult to pull off accurately) they add "depth" to the game.  It is not enough to simply say the word "depth" and feel that it argues your point- you have to explain how it accomplishes skill gap + balance + nonrandom.  (button combos are clearly not "random" in the way that bloom in reach added randomness.)

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I am not a fan of "unnatural" movement abilities in Arena FPS games, either have that movement option built into the game for everyone(like UT's dodge) or have it as a map pick-up(like Reach v7) where that ability is valued as a controlled pick-up item and map specific to reduce game-breaking scenarios like Jetpack on Uncaged from happening. 

 

The way to enhance Halo's game depth and meta is not to introduce game-changing mechanics like AA's or sprint that create chaotic battles and scenarios that are inherently non-competitive, this isn't TF2 an even playing field is necessary for optimal comp play in Halo.

 

What we should be doing, is looking for ways to improve the current movement mechanics and corresponding map routes. Halo CE+Halo 2 did this through physics(the most NATURAL extension of the mechanics) which allowed players to nade weapons, grenade jump, nade launch make tactical jumps, nade spots, and in general the fluency of the movement and speed of the mechanics made for dynamic and skill-based battles that were also tactical in the moves you made. Wrong moves like missing a grenade, challenging when weak, melee'ing too soon,ect... were PUNISHED and coordination in team games was of uttermost importance with the more realistic movement speed of the game/less frequency of PW's and Power-ups compared to contemporary Arena shooters. 

 

I would argue that the true magic of the MP came from the more realistic CS-style movement combined with the Arena-style in your face combat dynamics, interesting mix of human and alien weapons, and the strategical importance of the PW/spawn system. This created great combat dynamics, as combat tactics/positioning and skill in battle were balanced in a way that challenged the player on multiple levels no one element or strategy overpowered the game.

 

As the Halo series has progressed, these dynamics have changed dramatically and were dumbed down basically. Movement became sluggish and physics were stifled taking away much of the depth of the movement and grenade mechanics and creating sluggish uninteresting battles in return. AA's were then introduced to try and artificially give back what the game lost in subsequent titles, but they many times overpowered the combat and broke the meta removing the "strategical" aspect of Halo's movement and the ebb-and flow of the battles. It now felt gimmicky and forced in a way that H1+H2 never did, it felt unnatural to the player and broke the game on a competitive level. 

 

Sprint was introduced to make up for the nerf in base movement speed and to appeal to the modern shooter audience. Again, this upsetted the balance of Halo MP as mistakes went unpunished and the defensive player now had a major crutch to abuse in battle which left the battles feeling unbalanced and cheap to the player. That is why so many veteran Halo players feel sprint is a "crutch" or "cheap", they are experienced/in-tuned with the game in ways some 343 developers are obviously not and noticed a major shift in the combat dynamics that feels unbalanced to them no matter how much they "adapt" to the negative effects sprint has on the game. Maps had to be built over-sized and generic to accommodate this major shift in Halo gameplay, taking away the small-CQB maps of past Halo's that were so dearly loved like Warlock,Mid-ship, Prisoner, Beaver Creek, Lockout,ect..

 

.Players would spawn, sprint, die repeatedly this  Mirrored CoD's MP-style more than Halo's which is more strategic in nature and relies on the balance of strategic movement and dynamic combat, not the fast movement and sluggish battles which it has now become.

 

The "magic" of Halo MP was now gone as strategic movement/dynamic combat was replaced with fast-movement and sluggish battles the opposite of what it should be.

 

TLDR: AA's and sprint ruined Halo's strategic combat balance and signature dynamic combat style by replacing strategic combat and PW/spawn systems with a rushed style of play, sluggish battles, and gimmicky map movement compared to the natural approach and mix of the trilogy which resulted in the "magic" of the MP.

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So would crouch jumping, spring jumping, short jumping, etc all be considered "unnatural movement"? (Just curious about where you draw the line and why)

 

I largely agree with your arguments about dumbing down movement.

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Do you want competitive Halo to die for good? Thruster packs off spawn would be the final nail in the coffin.

 

Brainstorm all the extraneous movement ideas you want, they're not the least bit necessary for Halo to be good again.

look at point c. if u meant that t-pack in any way possible, no matter the tweaks and revisions and possibility to balance it, will always 'kill halo' then ur simply narrow-minded. I knew that at least one person would complain. Im not fucking asking t-pack to be added as-is-in-h4.

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So would crouch jumping, spring jumping, short jumping, etc all be considered "unnatural movement"? (Just curious about where you draw the line and why)

 

I largely agree with your arguments about dumbing down movement.

 

No of course not, crouching is a built in movement aspect of the game available to all players. Jetpacking is an unnatural movement ability not built into the games control scheme or map design.

 

What if for example crouching and jumping were AA's instead of natural aspects of the movement, wouldn't that seem stupid in an Arena-style shooter? What if one player in UT could dodge and the other couldn't? That just would not work for comp balance, much like AA's do not work in comp Halo. 

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No of course not, crouching is a built in movement aspect of the game available to all players. Jetpacking is an unnatural movement ability not built into the games control scheme or map design.

 

What if for example crouching and jumping were AA's instead of natural aspects of the movement, wouldn't that seem stupid in an Arena-style shooter? What if one player in UT could dodge and the other couldn't? That just would not work for comp balance, much like AA's do not work in comp Halo. 

 

So some more devil's advocate: Would you attack powerups based on the second paragraph? (One player can disappear after not shooting for a second, the other one can't. One guy can kill somebody in 2 shots, the other guy can't)

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So some more devil's advocate: Would you attack powerups based on the second paragraph? (One player can disappear after not shooting for a second, the other one can't. One guy can kill somebody in 2 shots, the other guy can't)

 

Power-ups are temporary advantages found on the map available to all players, AA's are not. Power-ups are not meant to provide a permanent special move for players, AA's are. Power-ups fall under the umbrella of temporary player dynamics and reward map control, AA's are much like class specific moves in TF2 you essentially choose off spawn, but Halo is not meant to be a class-shooter its a Sandbox shooter. That is why AA's as pick-ups semi-worked in Reach v7, balance was restored to the Sandbox and it did not clash with the even playing field philosophy  anymore.

 

The prime example of this is camo as a power-up vs camo as an AA. 

 

Camo as a power-up was balanced as a sparse power-up that gave you a temporary advantage and its power was ok because of this.

 

Camo as an AA where you can permanently spam pretty much promotes camping(camo sniping,camo shotgun/bolt-shot,ect..), overpowers the golden triangle, and is too powerful as a base ability even in its semi-nerfed state. 

 

AA's destroy the even playing field of Halo and give players OP special abilities, while power-ups enhance the Sandbox dynamics of the game in a balanced way.

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