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Ling Ling

Why are classics rejected in competitive settings?

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This is the craziest part - why throw out anything that works? 

 

Same goes for maps - how many remakes did Halo 2 end up with?

 

Battle Creek - Beaver Creek

Blood Gultch - Coagulation

Hang Em High - Tombstone

Longest - Elongation

Wizard - Warlock

 

5 out of 12 is 42% remake of the entire previous game's maps.

 

Obviously there are a shit ton of previous games at this point but could we shoot for maybe 10%? 15%? I think standing on the shoulders of giants is the operative phrase here. Instead we get Ragnarok and Pitfall... yeah.

 

 

I think part of the problem is that Sprint and AAs require retooling of the entire map. If those were not present you could use the existing geometry and just have CA spit-polish them.

Halo 2 also had a Derelict remake called Desolation

 

Although Bungie did take the time to try and improve and adapt the maps for a new playstyle. Weapon spawns were changed, bases were altered, et cetera.

What is 343 doing? Keeping everything exactly the same so it can be ruined by Snipers that never leave scope. They're not even changing weapon spawns, just removing the powerups.

 

Why would the PIt necessarily play bad in Halo CE 4v4?

Would Box 'n' Wall play well enough to warrant being played in CE? Does it offer anything that CE really needs? Is there anything Pit can give us that can't be improved upon with a different design?

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They're not even changing weapon spawns, just removing the powerups.

 

 

Well, removing powerups makes for a new meta-game - albeit a much, much shittier one.

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But why is there this hard limit on strategy in Halo? Why should someone be able to "master" a map in the first place? Are the maps just too linear, or is it deeper mechanics that are preventing a higher skill ceiling? I'm definitely not denying the maps' list of viable new strats seem to diminish quickly, its just figuring out the source of the problem.

 

And as said by Luc, I wouldn't mind seeing a bank of official remakes in every new Halo along with new maps, similar to Counter-Strike (It would honestly be a win for everyone). Perhaps then we could really see how things turn out without the slight bias against forge maps.

 

I would say both linear maps and game mechanics are problematic. We have lost nading down weapons, grenade jumping, changing starting spawns, etc. since the first few Halos. These things created a lot of new strategies and routes. Remaking the map might bring back the geometry but the diverse metagame / high skill ceiling created by previous Halos' game mechanics is no longer as diverse / high as it was. Add the factor of strategies being discovered already for the map and third / fourth title remakes become largely meh.  

 

If we had a CE map with CE-like mechanics for five, six, maybe more years it might still have some meta. Throw a CE map into Halo 4 and it wouldn't last nearly as long. Why? CE's mechanics allow for a higher skill ceiling than H4's. Same goes for games like CS where old maps can still have meta.

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It also has to do with it being forged and not a disc map. You gotta use disc maps to have some kinda of familiarity to the game.

 

I'd be down if they released a map pack of classics, but it's also nice to have variety as well and play new maps.

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I'd be perfecty content with bringing classic maps back.  :)

 

 

Spire

Oh god, I just had an awful thought.. *shudders*

 

Hopefully that particular "classic" would be rejected in competitive settings..

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I would say both linear maps and game mechanics are problematic. We have lost nading down weapons, grenade jumping, changing starting spawns, etc. since the first few Halos. These things created a lot of new strategies and routes. Remaking the map might bring back the geometry but the diverse metagame / high skill ceiling created by previous Halos' game mechanics is no longer as diverse / high as it was. Add the factor of strategies being discovered already for the map and third / fourth title remakes become largely meh.  

 

If we had a CE map with CE-like mechanics for five, six, maybe more years it might still have some meta. Throw a CE map into Halo 4 and it wouldn't last nearly as long. Why? CE's mechanics allow for a higher skill ceiling than H4's. Same goes for games like CS where old maps can still have meta.

 

Couldn't have said it better.

 

Take Pit as the example; where does it go from here without physical changes to the geometry? We had three years in H3 and a further few in Reach, the only major change in approach over that timespan was people realizing they could run flags down the middle of the map quicker and a few spawn traps got tightened up over the years. This won't change going into the H4 version and there's a high probability we won't see any major meta changes because of the limitations of the geometry (symmetrical with a lack of verticality) and the gametypes (side based spawning with 4 major clusters per side).

 

Thankfully we're getting some actual changes to the map that people should embrace and the potential to get more out of the map through the new gametypes (EXT and Ricochet)

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Couldn't have said it better.

 

Take Pit as the example; where does it go from here without physical changes to the geometry? We had three years in H3 and a further few in Reach, the only major change in approach over that timespan was people realizing they could run flags down the middle of the map quicker and a few spawn traps got tightened up over the years. This won't change going into the H4 version and there's a high probability we won't see any major meta changes because of the limitations of the geometry (symmetrical with a lack of verticality) and the gametypes (side based spawning with 4 major clusters per side).

 

Thankfully we're getting some actual changes to the map that people should embrace and the potential to get more out of the map through the new gametypes (EXT and Ricochet)

I would like to play the shit out of Pit 2-plot.

 

But 2-plot is uncompetitive because they said so.

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Oh god, I just had an awful thought.. *shudders*

 

Hopefully that particular "classic" would be rejected in competitive settings..

 

Lmao, who said anything about Competitive settings? That was a GOAT BTB map.

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People seem to forget that Halo devs completely rework and throw out certain mechanics between games.

 

But anything to play Pit for the 6th year in a row, right guys?

Gonna play vastly different with flagnum. Not even sure we'll be able to jump from Plat to green box with 80% speed flag..

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Gonna play vastly different with flagnum. Not even sure we'll be able to jump from Plat to green box with 80% speed flag..

It is, if teams cant run green, some new strategies will emerge, like running it long hall.

 

The odd team would run it sword side, but not juggling it for the sneaky cap. That tactic has been removed too.

 

 

Pit isn't even on the same league of Chill out, priz, Battle Creek, etc

Then why did people vote for the pit so much? We all know Tommy Thumbless in social slayer years for a deep meta game.

 

 

Lmao, who said anything about Competitive settings? That was a GOAT BTB map.

Spire had potential if they cut off the Invasion parts of the map. Why the fuck did I spawn about 5 miles away from the spire?

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Then why did people vote for the pit so much? We all know Tommy Thumbless in social slayer years for a deep meta game.

 

 

 

I thought you were serious for a second, then I read your username

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See average quality of Reach maps. When we get maps like Sword Base, Spire, The Cage, Paradiso etc., it makes everything look better in comparison. If the Pit was in CE, how many people would have liked it considering that CE also had maps like Damnation, Prisoner, etc?

but you just argued for the point the op was trying to make

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because those maps can actually have some new meta be formed.  

 

Pit?  Not so much

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Why are classics rejected?

 

Because forgers make better maps than the maps people claim are "classic". So there not a reason why they should be welcomed besides nostalgia purposes.

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but you just argued for the point the op was trying to make

 

No, I was trying to show that Pit looked OK for v7 because Reach was awful, not because the map had insane amounts of meta or anything. TBH I would have preferred Oversoul/Retro but that's off topic.

 

Now with H4, our game mechanics are even worse for skillgap (flinch, ordnance, sprint), and the map has even less meta than it had to start with because we used some of it in H3 and in Reach, which is why I'm not particularly crazy for the Pit in v5 (although I'll take it over Adrift CTF, some other TS would be nice seeing as our snipers are easy mode 12 bullet flinch monsters..).

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