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Ling Ling

Why are classics rejected in competitive settings?

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I've become quite curious about this, and its become increasingly relevant as Halo ages, and as the classic map designs become older. Why are classics discouraged from going into competitive settings? Why are new disc maps always given a free pass, despite being blatantly broken? I understand the needs of connecting more to casual settings, the needs of splitscreen tourneys, and the need to try new things.

 

However, it seems whenever the idea of bringing Sanc back into 4, I get the usual "the meta is gone" or something to that extent. Ignoring the fact that Pit (as a dev map) is coming back again, and our need for Midship, why are classics not accepted in this fashion? Why are we the only competitive community as a whole can say "we really don't want to play Sanc or Pit again", while Counter-Strike would go under if it didn't have Train, Dust_2, and Nuke in its game. The comp 6v6 TF2 groups rarely play anything else but Badwater, and have been since it came out. 

 

Going back to "the meta is gone"...why? I thought about this for a while, and I came across the concept of "perfect-imbalance", it which the meta-environment is constantly changing due to an ever present number of strategies...this isn't present in Halo. TF2 being class based has it, and Counter-Strike being financially based has it, but Halo, in its perfect Arena form, doesn't have this, for better or worse. So after Reach has Sanctuary, most competitive players felt like they had mastered all possible strategies for the map, and thus don't feel its worth going into another Halo game. Obviously, many people still enjoy classics, but at a competitive level they feel boring. 

 

Meanwhile, people are always excited for new maps in Halo, while even in other arena shooters, new maps are taken at a speculative grain of salt. The first time most of us played Adrift, most of us figured it was a map that was at least below par for your typical competitive map, but it hasn't come out for two reasons: its a disc map, and it has a new metagame.

 

As an arena shooter, Halo can only support so many good map designs, and what happens when new maps only ever feel like the metagame of an older one? Many say time will take care of that, but many still feel uncomfortable with designs as old as Warlock.

 

Extra Credits' video on perfect imbalance:

 

 

Could Halo find a way to have perfect imbalance? Does it need it? Perhaps not the most prominent issue, but its nice to have a deeper discussion in GD.

 

 

 

TL;DR- Maps in Halo get old and lose competitive appeal in the span of a single title. In other games, maps don't "age" and allow for new strats to develop even if the map is ten years old. This is possibly because of "perfect imbalance", which is too difficult to explain in a TL;DR, so just watch the vid.

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The two main reasons I've always preferred disc maps are to, as you mentioned, try to line up with mainstream/casual gametypes as much as possible, and to get some variety.   Although we can't sacrifice a lot to line up more with casual gametypes, using the same maps does help attract some casuals to play the competitive playlists.  I remember trying to introduce some of my more casual-playing friends to the MLG playlist in Reach, but none of them knew what the hell any of the maps were so they just quit out after a couple games.  And even though forge is much improved aesthetically from Reach, it still gets ridiculous if you play the majority of your games on the same two forge palettes.  The new Pit map will provide some much needed variation, and it now has its own character.

 

Also, regarding Sanctuary not being used anymore: I loved the map in Reach, but even I was getting a little tired of it.  I think we definitely needed a break from it this game, but I'm totally for it coming back in Halo 5 as a forge map if we need forge maps.  Give it a little bit of a break and we won't be quite as worn out from it.

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Classic maps tend to be rejected if they've had their meta exhausted because they're not aesthetically pleasing and old maps get stale when played over numerous titles. Also, disc maps tend to get the edge over forge remakes because 1) Shows the dev you're willing to play their maps and not make all your own, basically spitting in the face of the guys who made those maps and 2) Split screen capability for Tournament play.

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Classic maps tend to be rejected if they've had their meta exhausted because they're not aesthetically pleasing and old maps get stale when played over numerous titles. Also, disc maps tend to get the edge over forge remakes because 1) Shows the dev you're willing to play their maps and not make all your own, basically spitting in the face of the guys who made those maps and 2) Split screen capability for Tournament play.

 But why is that meta exhausted? Why can Dust_2 continue to be successful despite being in the Counter-Strike games since the year 2000?

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However, it seems whenever the idea of bringing Sanc back into 4, I get the usual "the meta is gone" or something to that extent. Ignoring the fact that Pit (as a dev map) is coming back again, and our need for Midship, why are classics not accepted in this fashion? Why are we the only competitive community as a whole can say "we really don't want to play Sanc or Pit again", while Counter-Strike would go under if it didn't have Train, Dust_2, and Nuke in its game. The comp 6v6 TF2 groups rarely play anything else but Badwater, and have been since it came out. 

 

CS maps are far more complex and have years worth of evolving meta.

 

A map, like the Pit, has 4 routes to the other side of the map. It hasnt changed since 2009. Theres only 1 Halo game that can be resembled to CS and thats CE. 

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Each and every Halo game plays so vastly different from the last. Other competitive titles keep consistency, which is why they get a free pass.

Strafes become worse, killtimes become longer, descopes are removed, weapons are changed, etc.

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 But why is that meta exhausted? Why can Dust_2 continue to be successful despite being in the Counter-Strike games since the year 2000?

 

OK, find me a new strategy. :P

 

The meta is exhausted because the maps are simple. New setups aren't exactly developed every other month or even year; there are only so many strategically distinct areas on the map (Sanc: sniper hut, shotty, base, rocks, carbine, bons/courtyard, ring - combine those in various ways to create slayer setups. Eliminate silly things like setting up players in rocks and there aren't that many choices...).

 

Having the maps last for 4-5 years for second title remakes is actually impressive.

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 But why is that meta exhausted? Why can Dust_2 continue to be successful despite being in the Counter-Strike games since the year 2000?

I don't know, sorry. I only play Halo.

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Yeah I think it's a bunch of bullshit.  I want to see either a Wizard, Lockout, or Sanctuary remake in v5.

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They are not rejected, they are only rejected by the kids on the forums that hardly even play the game.

 

Go to a tournament or play with anyone that plays real competitive Halo (pros..etc)... and ask them, they would love to be playing the classics. 

 

Seriously don't listen to these forum kids, they are bad at the game (trust me, i know, i've played most of them in customs and they can barely go even, if it's not even its neg 10), they don't do anything but hop on forums and say the most off the wall shit to get someones blood boiling so they can have someone to talk to.

 

The only thing i would wanna see is classic maps change aesthetically.

 

Like imagine Midship turned into a Forest-Like-Treehouse theme with Trees and vines creeping down the walls and birds flying around, kinda like Guardian.

 

Or Sanctuary into a futuristic universal Monolith type theme with space debris and planets like saturn in the sky box

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CS maps are far more complex and have years worth of evolving meta.

 

A map, like the Pit, has 4 routes to the other side of the map. It hasnt changed since 2009. Theres only 1 Halo game that can be resembled to CS and thats CE. 

 

lol, I can name numerous meta-changes in Halo maps over the years. Were all the jumps and angles found in Lockout in the first few months? Was the plat to middle green flag juggle jump always the fastest route? Did teams always try to stealth run the flag on Countdown to gain an advantage? Were the set-ups for KOTH Element(the one Ryanoob suicided on for a better spawn) always the same? Was the Red base,rocket arch,tele set-up in BC always the best set-up on BC? Did players always try to nade down rockets from arch? Were all the jumps and weapon nade spots found in the first couple years in Halo CE? Did teams figure out how to play Damnation effectively in the first few months? Was the optimal Ball set-up on Guardian always the same?

 

Will Pit play exactly the same in H4 as it did in H3? Halo maps are among the best in creating deep meta because of the unique weapon lay-outs and the different map routes created by teleporters,lifts, different jump routes, different nade spots,angles,ect.. are infinite.

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lol, I can name numerous meta-changes in Halo maps over the years. Were all the jumps and angles found in Lockout in the first few months? Was the plat to middle green flag juggle jump always the fastest route? Was the Red base,rocket arch,tele set-up in BC always the best set-up on BC? Did players always try to nade down rockets from arch? Were all the jumps and weapon nade spots found in the first couple years in Halo CE? Did teams figure out how to play Damnation effectively in the first few months? Was the optimal Ball set-up on Guardian always the same?

 

Will Pit play exactly the same in H4 as it did in H3? Halo maps are among the best in creating deep meta because PW's and the different map routes created by teleporters,lifts, different jumps, different nade spots, are infinite.

Did you see that time I said "1 game can resemble CS, and thats CE" CE maps generally have more depth to them than, say, the Pit.

Did you also see that time I said "a map like the Pit" which certainly isint close to a map like Lockout.

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Successors, Inspirations that improve upon the original Classic Map are treated better and generally are better depending on the Forger, Designer, and with Pitfall atleast the Developer's attempted to fix some of Halo 3's Pit flaws, I commend them for that but it is still the Pit.

 

Though, remakes are not really needed, they only bring back some memory of the previous Halo games, but the strategies generally stay the exact same because people have learned and mastered these Map's over the years. We would rather see new Map Designs, especially successful ones mostly from the Game Developer, 343, but we have not really got any truly amazing Map's from the Developer's for years, since Reach honestly. We are generally forced to end up relying on Forge to design our own great maps, to substitute for certain game-types and elements that older Map's may of filled.

 

However with new Map Designs there are new strategies and elements to learn and watch players master, and that is exciting, especially for spectators who simply want to see the players improve and progress in their careers.

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Did you see that time I said "1 game can resemble CS, and thats CE"

Did you also see that time I said "a map like the Pit" which certainly isint close to a map like Lockout.

 

Why is the Pit voted the most in H3 and top 3 in HR in play-list if its not a map that has an interesting meta and offers high replay-ability?

 

Pit is a very versatile map, it can play standoffish when PW's are coming up but its also a map that can be taken over quite easily/spawn-trapped and relies on heavy coordination from teams due to its closed off center structure and importance on PW control. Sure the mechanics of H3 may not be as deep as HCE but there is nothing that makes it a "lesser" map than any of H4's current maps.

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Why is the Pit voted the most in H3 and top 3 in HR in play-list if its not a map that has an interesting meta and offers high replay-ability?

Because it's popular. Why do people still play Lockout TS on XBC?

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The only thing i would wanna see is classic maps change aesthetically.

 

Like imagine Midship turned into a Forest-Like-Treehouse theme with Trees and vines creeping down the walls and birds flying around, kinda like Guardian.

 

Or Sanctuary into a futuristic universal Monolith type theme with space debris and planets like saturn in the sky box

 

 

I love this idea. I want developer remade classics, using the same layout but with overhauled aesthetics. Not only would it reintroduce classics, but would make them feel fresh.

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Why is the Pit voted the most in H3 and top 3 in HR in play-list if its not a map that has an interesting meta and offers high replay-ability?

 

Pit is a very versatile map, it can play standoffish when PW's are coming up but its also a map that can be taken over quite easily/spawn-trapped and relies on heavy coordination from teams due to its closed off center structure and importance on PW control. Sure the mechanics of H3 may not be as deep as HCE but there is nothing that makes it a "lesser" map than any of H4's current maps.

 

See average quality of Reach maps. When we get maps like Sword Base, Spire, The Cage, Paradiso etc., it makes everything look better in comparison. If the Pit was in CE, how many people would have liked it considering that CE also had maps like Damnation, Prisoner, etc?

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Successors, Inspirations that improve upon the original Classic Map are treated better and generally are better depending on the Forger, Designer, and with Pitfall atleast the Developer's attempted to fix some of Halo 3's Pit flaws, I commend them for that but it is still the Pit.

 

Though, remakes are not really needed, they only bring back some memory of the previous Halo games, but the strategies generally stay the exact same because people have learned and mastered these Map's over the years. We would rather see new Map Designs, especially successful ones mostly from the Game Developer, 343, but we have not really got any truly amazing Map's from the Developer's for years, since Reach honestly. We are generally forced to end up relying on Forge to design our own great maps, to substitute for certain game-types and elements that older Map's may of filled.

 

However with new Map Designs there are new strategies and elements to learn and watch players master, and that is exciting, especially for spectators who simply want to see the players improve and progress in their careers.

 

But why is there this hard limit on strategy in Halo? Why should someone be able to "master" a map in the first place? Are the maps just too linear, or is it deeper mechanics that are preventing a higher skill ceiling? I'm definitely not denying the maps' list of viable new strats seem to diminish quickly, its just figuring out the source of the problem.

 

And as said by Luc, I wouldn't mind seeing a bank of official remakes in every new Halo along with new maps, similar to Counter-Strike (It would honestly be a win for everyone). Perhaps then we could really see how things turn out without the slight bias against forge maps.

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The Classic settings aren't rejected as of yet, (AKA NS) they are still in the works being tested. however i think maybe in V6 we would have a chance at it being implemented, considering Ghost will have only a day and a half to test Pit Fall with the current settings and then the Classic settings. i think we'll have sprint for a while.

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People seem to forget that Halo devs completely rework and throw out certain mechanics between games.

 

But anything to play Pit for the 6th year in a row, right guys?

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Because it's popular. Why do people still play Lockout TS on XBC?

 Because Lockout is a fun map with lots of replay-ability, same as the Pit.

 

 

See average quality of Reach maps. When we get maps like Sword Base, Spire, The Cage, Paradiso etc., it makes everything look better in comparison. If the Pit was in CE, how many people would have liked it considering that CE also had maps like Damnation, Prisoner, etc?

 

I think Halo CE could of used some better symms for 4v4 so pretty good.

 

 

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See average quality of Reach maps. When we get maps like Sword Base, Spire, The Cage, Paradiso etc., it makes everything look better in comparison. If the Pit was in CE, how many people would have liked it considering that CE also had maps like Damnation, Prisoner, etc?

Talk smack about Spire and you are #dad to me

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 Because Lockout is a fun map with lots of replay-ability, same as the Pit.

But is it necessarily the best pick for Team Slayer? Or even a good Team Slayer?

 

Halo CE

symms

4v4

3 big flaws with your post.

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But is it necessarily the best pick for Team Slayer? Or even a good Team Slayer?

 

3 big flaws with your post.

 

Is Lockout the best pick for TS? Both of them have the potential to play pretty slow in TS, I dont necessarily see that as a bad thing.

 

Why would the PIt necessarily play bad in Halo CE 4v4?

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People seem to forget that Halo devs completely rework and throw out certain mechanics between games.

 

 

This is the craziest part - why throw out anything that works? 

 

Same goes for maps - how many remakes did Halo 2 end up with?

 

Battle Creek - Beaver Creek

Blood Gultch - Coagulation

Hang Em High - Tombstone

Longest - Elongation

Wizard - Warlock

Derelict - Desolation

 

6 out of 12 is 50% remake of the entire previous game's maps.

 

Obviously there are a shit ton of previous games at this point but could we shoot for maybe 15%? 20%? I think standing on the shoulders of giants is the operative phrase here. Instead we get Ragnarok and Pitfall... yeah.

 

 

I think part of the problem is that Sprint and AAs require retooling of the entire map. If those were not present you could use the existing geometry and just have CA spit-polish them.

 

Edit: Thanks Riot, missed one

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