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Hard Way

What changes should be made to Reach's competitive settings going forward?

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Let's try to keep suggestions as realistic as possible.  That means no, we're not modding weapons, and no, we're not removing the sniper rifle.

Here's the agenda. 14 gametypes is a reasonable request, given our new tournament format. So going off that, flat out, we need a new Slayer map and two new King/Ball maps. No matter what, that needs to happen. So we should focus the majority of our efforts there.

Beyond that, we need to edit what we want to keep. This mostly relates to Sanc, Creek and Penance, but could also mean something else if someone has a good argument and solution. I know I, for one, would like to see the damage resistance powerup lose the delayed recharge rate. I think the powerup is barely worth grabbing, and in some cases, is actually a hindrance. I think it'd be a fine OS replacement without that delay weighing it down.

After that, then we can take a hard look at replacing what we already have. I can't stress this enough: We need to have community consensus before replacing something.  This means polling. This means reaching out to every nook and cranny of the internet for competitive players and polling them. Remove Pit CTF for a forged version of Unanchored Assault? Replace Countdown CTF with Countdown Assault? That sort of thing. Have something in place to show people what would be taking it's spot. Map flythroughs/screenshots, gameplay, something. And be able to explain why a particular gametype is being targeted for replacement.

I'm trying to get us a firm answer on whether Assault and Ball are actual options for this. Once we have that, I think that will help us focus on what we really want to include.

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38 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

Let's try to keep suggestions as realistic as possible.  That means no, we're not modding weapons, and no, we're not removing the sniper rifle.

Here's the agenda. 14 gametypes is a reasonable request, given our new tournament format. So going off that, flat out, we need a new Slayer map and two new King/Ball maps. No matter what, that needs to happen. So we should focus the majority of our efforts there.

Beyond that, we need to edit what we want to keep. This mostly relates to Sanc, Creek and Penance, but could also mean something else if someone has a good argument and solution. I know I, for one, would like to see the damage resistance powerup lose the delayed recharge rate. I think the powerup is barely worth grabbing, and in some cases, is actually a hindrance. I think it'd be a fine OS replacement without that delay weighing it down.

After that, then we can take a hard look at replacing what we already have. I can't stress this enough: We need to have community consensus before replacing something.  This means polling. This means reaching out to every nook and cranny of the internet for competitive players and polling them. Remove Pit CTF for a forged version of Unanchored Assault? Replace Countdown CTF with Countdown Assault? That sort of thing. Have something in place to show people what would be taking it's spot. Map flythroughs/screenshots, gameplay, something. And be able to explain why a particular gametype is being targeted for replacement.

I'm trying to get us a firm answer on whether Assault and Ball are actual options for this. Once we have that, I think that will help us focus on what we really want to include.

I agree, I would go as far and say besides modding stuff a 4 shot kill DMR, faster item timers and 1 flag CTF are (sadly) also off he table.
Already said that I personally think it will be easier to get everybody to agree if we don't rip out any of the 11 v7 gametypes and only tweak a few of them.
Honestly I don't want this attempt to drown in endless reddit discussions over Pit or any other map, that's why my cards are on this "keep what was there, add 3 extra" approach.

I like the idea of removing the 50% recharge rate btw, we should test that.

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1 minute ago, Warlord Wossman said:

I agree, I would go as far and say besides modding stuff a 4 shot kill DMR, faster item timers and 1 flag CTF are (sadly) also off he table.
Already said that I personally think it will be easier to get everybody to agree if we don't rip out any of the 11 v7 gametypes and only tweak a few of them.
Honestly I don't want this attempt to drown in endless reddit discussions over Pit or any other map, that's why my cards are on this "keep what was there, add 3 extra" approach.

I like the idea of removing the 50% recharge rate btw, we should test that.

I don't mind leaving most of the item timers the way they were, but Penance needs this. That map more than any other desperately needs a camo on a 1min timer, and preferably one that lasts longer than 30sec.

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47 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

I'm trying to get us a firm answer on whether Assault and Ball are actual options for this. Once we have that, I think that will help us focus on what we really want to include.

Does anyone have an objection to keeping the conversation focused on what maps we want the six slayers to be on until we get an answer on whether assault and ball are options? I think this might be the most productive use of our time, as player trait changes don't seem like a good first step of propose changes since they're a little more drastic and discussing CTF changes seems like a waste of time if we don't even know if CTF is one of two or up to four possible objective gametypes.

@Hard Wayyou seem like the most "in charge" here of moderating the discussion (and you're the OP), does that sound like a good course of action?

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I could get behind that since Penance is a very special case, was mainly talking about 2 minute rockets causing a shitstorm for typical mlg kids esp. since "Reach rockets are sooo easy to use" let's bring H3 rockets back that you can counter by jumping right?

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1 minute ago, Noodle said:

Does anyone have an objection to keeping the conversation focused on what maps we want the six slayers to be on until we get an answer on whether assault and ball are options? I think this might be the most productive use of our time, as player trait changes don't seem like a good first step of propose changes since they're a little more drastic and discussing CTF changes seems like a waste of time if we don't even know if CTF is one of two or up to four possible objective gametypes.

@Hard Wayyou seem like the most "in charge" here of moderating the discussion (and you're the OP), does that sound like a good course of action?

I think for now, that would be the most productive. No work would be wasted.

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41 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

I agree, I would go as far and say besides modding stuff a 4 shot kill DMR, faster item timers and 1 flag CTF are (sadly) also off he table.

So what are we even here for, then? To spin our wheels and test Zealot ball and Penance king (yippee...), or actually make some improvements to the settings as a whole? Three minute rockets/two minutes sniper & camo doesn't work and we have a year of evidence of prove it. 1 flag is a natural fit for most of those asymmetrical disc maps that were ignored forever for being asymmetrical. Those same "typical MLG kids" that you're so desperate to impress think all asymmetrical maps in Reach are actually Sword Base in disguise.

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4 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

Duck told me he would make some official Zero Bloom Ball and Assault gametypes. LFG boys.

Well I guess we can discuss everything now!

Assuming we can get decent ball and assault maps, I'm in favor of breaking down the fourteen gameypes with six slayer, two CTF, two assault, two ball, and two hill. Allows one of each gametype in a full Bo5 and slayer to continue to take three slots in a Bo7 with each objective gametype played once.

This is of course also assuming 1-Flag doesn't end up being an option; I don't like the idea of 1-flag being played but I'm keeping an open mind and wouldn't want to definitively rule it out without testing.

 

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34 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

So what are we even here for, then? To spin our wheels and test Zealot ball and Penance king (yippee...), or actually make some improvements to the settings as a whole? Three minute rockets/two minutes sniper & camo doesn't work and we have a year of evidence of prove it. 1 flag is a natural fit for most of those asymmetrical disc maps that were ignored forever for being asymmetrical. Those same "typical MLG kids" that you're so desperate to impress think all asymmetrical maps in Reach are actually Sword Base in disguise.

I already mentioned what things we can improve on. You should keep in mind we are proposing changes to somebody who wanted to keep SMG and AR starts , so yeah we can try to make things as gold pro as possible and then have him decline it and be stuck with the playlist from 2012.

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On 11/27/2019 at 1:38 AM, Larry Sizemore said:

Okay, Powerhouse: (can't believe it's been almost ten years since I've been on a lot of these maps - trying to summon my memories while also looking at them with a fresh eye)

I don't see any reason why this map can't not only work, but be a lot of fun for team slayer, if you do it right. It was one of the only enjoyable maps in OG Reach, really this, Zealot, and A9 were the only ones I liked (fuck default Countdown). You have powerhouse and green as possible oddball setups. For possible hill locations, you have bottom middle in the water (probably would be the main hill), bottom bridge where the water lets out, focus rifle, top DMR, possibly top dormitories. I definitely want one flag to get a look here too. I'm thinking the flag be at hammer, with the return point at P2. Or in asymm flag that would be weak flag and strong flag. I know traditionally you put the flags at the ass end of the map opposite from one another, but I like providing an opportunity to get behind the flag, which you can't really do on maps like Wizard, Sanctuary, or Fathom, or even Zealot.

125/200 jump settings means you can jump up to hammer roof from the catwalks below (not possible in default), maybe put a power weapon up here? Not sure about a powerup, there's absolutely no cover and it'll probably just get burned. I'm thinking sniper. You can probably leave the rockets where they are, in the spillway by powerhouse. If somebody already has a jetpack and they're able to just grab them and jetpack their way up to P1 or P2, that's their reward for playing well and having some foresight. I'm thinking a jetpack in the showers (grenade launcher in default) and another one at water tank. Stick a camo/powerup at dormitories, on a delayed spawn, if we don't put anything else other there. The initial spawns should be mostly fine as is for slayer/king/ball with that weapon layout, just tweak them a bit so that no one has a clear advantage in that initial foot race to rockets/objective.

Powerhouse is okay as far as Team Slayer (like the playlist, not MLG) maps are concerned, but comes with a number of issues.

  1. The map is just generally conducive to stagnant play. Very often I'll be dealing with a team that hunkers down in and around the GL building, which is particularly hard to break because there's a massive wall between it and the rocket spawn. Going on the outward path of the wall and peaking around that corner is a good way to get yourself killed, especially if one of them is at the GH spawn, or at the very least close to it.
  2. On the other side of the rocket spawn, there is of course another building with limited entry points and also serves as a valuable point of control due to its elevation and position near the rocket spawn. It's not held down that often in TS games, but that's mainly due to noobs being particularly bad at controlling rocket spawn and the ramp that leads in the top floor at the same time. In a slayer game, better players would have very strong setups.
  3. You're often going to spawn out in the open near the cliff. If anyone has a slight line on you, like from just outside GH spawn, you're gonna have a bad time.

It's not the worst map, and still flows considerably better than some other maps in the game (Pinnacle, Uncaged, Precipice are all great examples of just how shitty Reach's forge maps could be), but I'd rather not play it in competitive settings, even if you thoughtfully reconfigure the weapon/power up layout.

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I don't see TS working on Powerhouse. KOTH, 3 plots and maybe Ball are the safest bets. 

Does anyone know how good Countdown works as an Assault map? If we were to convert one CTF to Bomb I think this one would be a good candidate. 

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5 hours ago, Hard Way said:

Duck told me he would make some official Zero Bloom Ball and Assault gametypes. LFG boys.

Get him to apply MLG's custom powerup traits to the OS, and make camo last 45 seconds. As far as the game is concerned, OS and Camo are just red & blue custom powerups with no menu to modify their traits. If he won't, those were stupid easy to do for console. I don't remember any Reach maps having camo or using custom for camo, but the option is there without having to make duplicate gametypes like in Halo 3.

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11 hours ago, Hard Way said:

Let's try to keep suggestions as realistic as possible.  That means no, we're not modding weapons, and no, we're not removing the sniper rifle.

Why. Knowing the flinch problem exists, on top of better alternatives.

10 hours ago, Hard Way said:

I don't mind leaving most of the item timers the way they were, but Penance needs this. That map more than any other desperately needs a camo on a 1min timer, and preferably one that lasts longer than 30sec.

Also why.

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1 minute ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Why. Knowing the flinch problem exists.

If you seriously think any 343 person in charge of the playlist would just be fine with removing the sniper entirely from competitive settings because some people in the community dislike a flinch mechanic I am not sure if you are ready for this debate.
Like sure we all have opinions but what Hard Way means with "realistic" is staying somewhat true to what the last iteration of the settings were.
Similar to your sniper suggestion you won't see something like people spawning with concussion rifles no matter what just because it's not reasonably close to what the settings were before.

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5 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Why. Knowing the flinch problem exists, on top of better alternatives.

Because mods aren't happening on Xbox anytime soon. These are supposed to be MM settings. If course I'd love a 4sk DMR with 2x zoom, faster strafe, no more flinch and deafening grenades etc. and I'm gonna try to do exactly that on PC, but that what realistic means in this context. We're lucky if we can even get 45s camo and a better OS, which aren't even actual mods but hidden gametype settings. Hell we're lucky if we can change the settings at all, let's be real here. They didn't change the H3 v8 settings, they didn't add H2A forge maps to the circuit and instead milked the same 3 old maps, they didn't remove ARs and radar from H5 for what 2 two years? HCS people aren't exactly known for listening to the community and making quick, reasonable improvements to the settings.

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2 hours ago, Warlord Wossman said:

If you seriously think any 343 person in charge of the playlist would just be fine with removing the sniper entirely from competitive settings because some people in the community dislike a flinch mechanic I am not sure if you are ready for this debate.
Like sure we all have opinions but what Hard Way means with "realistic" is staying somewhat true to what the last iteration of the settings were.
Similar to your sniper suggestion you won't see something like people spawning with concussion rifles no matter what just because it's not reasonably close to what the settings were before.

We were fine with removing bloom because some people in the community disliked it, lol. If we’re going for a super competitive thing, I’d obviously be more in line to push for a flinch patch, but given the more unrealistic nature of that, why not eliminate the problem weapons that break because of it, as an easier solution. It’s meant to be competitive, regardless of past settings. I argue the sniper as is, really isn’t. Others can fill the role of a passive power weapon without being broken.

Let’s not get into hyperbole and say removing the snipe is anywhere close to changing stuff to spawn with CRs, however. It’s power weapon replacement. We’ve done it all the time in recent games if the settings deemed it right. In most cases.

2 hours ago, Basu said:

Because mods aren't happening on Xbox anytime soon. These are supposed to be MM settings. If course I'd love a 4sk DMR with 2x zoom, faster strafe, no more flinch and deafening grenades etc. and I'm gonna try to do exactly that on PC, but that what realistic means in this context. We're lucky if we can even get 45s camo and a better OS, which aren't even actual mods but hidden gametype settings. Hell we're lucky if we can change the settings at all, let's be real here. They didn't change the H3 v8 settings, they didn't add H2A forge maps to the circuit and instead milked the same 3 old maps, they didn't remove ARs and radar from H5 for what 2 two years? HCS people aren't exactly known for listening to the community and making quick, reasonable improvements to the settings.

I’m not suggesting modding. I’m suggesting weapon replacement in its absence. Because we can’t outright fix the problem, but we can mitigate the byproduct problem weapons of it for a competitive experience. 

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3 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

We were fine with removing bloom because some people in the community disliked it, lol. If we’re going for a super competitive thing, I’d obviously be more in line to push for a flinch patch, but given the more unrealistic nature of that, why not eliminate the problem weapons that break because of it, as an easier solution. It’s meant to be competitive, regardless of past settings. I argue the sniper as is, really isn’t. Others can fill the role of a passive power weapon without being broken.

Let’s not get into hyperbole and say removing the snipe is anywhere close to changing stuff to spawn with CRs, however. It’s power weapon replacement. We’ve done it all the time in recent games if the settings deemed it right. In most cases.

Removing bloom is not ripping out an essential part of the experience, the no bloom DMR behaves like the bloom DMR if you wait long enough for the error cone to fully reset so in that sense it's a very minor change compared to taking out the sniper entirely. There is no weapon to replace its exact role of being hitscan with an instant kill on headshot and 2 shot kill on the body that can be used to hold down positions and angles.
Your example of removing bloom would be fitting if you argued for removing flinch but taking out the sniper instead is closer to removing the DMR because it has bloom. This really shouldn't be that hard to understand, and a grenade launcher cannot simply take the role of the sniper, it might be a power weapon we can place on maps and that's about all of the similarities...

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2 hours ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Removing bloom is not ripping out an essential part of the experience, the no bloom DMR behaves like the bloom DMR if you wait long enough for the error cone to fully reset so in that sense it's a very minor change compared to taking out the sniper entirely. There is no weapon to replace its exact role of being hitscan with an instant kill on headshot and 2 shot kill on the body that can be used to hold down positions and angles.
Your example of removing bloom would be fitting if you argued for removing flinch but taking out the sniper instead is closer to removing the DMR because it has bloom. This really shouldn't be that hard to understand, and a grenade launcher cannot simply take the role of the sniper, it might be a power weapon we can place on maps and that's about all of the similarities...

Removing bloom isn’t removing an essential part, you’re right. But it undeniably bolsters the essential part of the game. Gunfighting. By eliminating randomness to the best of our ability and removing the weird dichotomy of holding your fire and spamming your trigger in fights. A dichotomy we know didn’t work. Given tapping could punish you, and bloom spam could reward you. 

Likewise, every weapon had bloom at one point. Removing the DMR in that circumstance doesn’t fix or mitigate anything, whereas here there’s a tangible benefit to removing the sniper, even if every gun has flinch.

Removing a weapon that can one tap you, or even just strip shields, if you fire at someone holding it first would go far in pushing this competitively. You can be one tap punished by having first shot because your shooting pushes their reticle to you. Not because you’re doing something wrong. That isn’t good. And is leagues different than, say, having first shot on another DMR user and them snapping to you. You’d still be up shots, over having a bigger better weapon nuking you. The concept of removing weapons still isn’t new, either. MLG was a big fan of it.

With that said. The nade launcher has both a one and two tap potential. And actual margin of error past that. It has some utility with area of denial, given its secondary function, and can lock down map regions easily. It offers the same utility as a grenade, and a bit more. The passive play it enforces is much better than the passive play of effectively winning gunfights outside of a contestable range. This is meant to be more competitive.

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The Sniper isn’t going to be removed from competitive Halo.  We all know this.  Can we store these ramblings in another thread so this one can stay focused on realistic suggestions and the discussion of those?

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Please don’t let her derail this thread. Please. Find the willpower to ignore this stupid crap. Let her bait out her arguments elsewhere. It’s not even a good faith suggestion. She literally just wants to argue.

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2 hours ago, Hard Way said:

Please don’t let her derail this thread. Please. Find the willpower to ignore this stupid crap. Let her bait out her arguments elsewhere. It’s not even a good faith suggestion. She literally just wants to argue.

This is a literal thread started by you to offer competitive suggestions for potential improvements or ideas to the pre-established settings of the game. I’m offering a weapon swap suggestion on the basis of flinch being a problem in this game that is insanely exacerbated by the sniper. I’m literally conceding to the idea of replacement over simple removal, even in spite of my obvious disdain FOR power weapons to make the idea more fair and appealing to a wider audience. This is literally the least bad faith, and the most on topic I could be, and I don’t get the venom, dude. What’s up with you.

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18 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

This is a literal thread started by you to offer competitive suggestions for potential improvements or ideas to the pre-established settings of the game. I’m offering a weapon swap suggestion on the basis of flinch being a problem in this game that is insanely exacerbated by the sniper. I’m literally conceding to the idea of replacement over simple removal, even in spite of my obvious disdain FOR power weapons to make the idea more fair and appealing to a wider audience. This is literally the least bad faith, and the most on topic I could be, and I don’t get the venom, dude. What’s up with you.

limit snipe to 1 clip, 4 bullets. No reload.

 

There. isn't it already a super small clip?

 

 

Yeah I think H3 mlg had 8. This sniper has like 4 or something in MLG.

edit: yeah, i think the balance here though is the DMR has a larger range so you can potentially descope that sniper easier than say a BR in h3. but flinch is still shit no matter which way you slice it.

ed0bcab1836b9de4a7333e39cd5affa3.png

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2 hours ago, znot said:

limit snipe to 1 clip, 4 bullets. No reload. There. isn't it already a super small clip?

Yeah I think H3 mlg had 8. This sniper has like 4 or something in MLG.

ed0bcab1836b9de4a7333e39cd5affa3.png

This doesn’t solve my problem. My issue is the auto dragging flinch mechanic with the sniper specifically as a result of its power. Mag size doesn’t rid us of a problem weapon. Just changes the time where it’s in play. But it’s still a problem.

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Ok I went through the thread and collected all suggestions and put them into categories. Any objections/suggestions?
(ordered alphabetically not by how good they are)

Potential Gametypes

  • A9 Bomb
  • A9 CTF
  • Countdown Bomb*
  • Element TS
  • Element Ball
  • (Nexus Ball) 
  • Nexus Bomb
  • Oasis KOTH
  • Oasis TS
  • Oversoul Bomb
  • Powerhouse KOTH
  • Powerhouse TS
  • Sanc Bomb*
  • Splash KOTH
  • Zealot Ball*
  • Zealot Bomb*

*For these we have to keep in mind the 2 gametypes per map limit, so they’d have to be better than the already existing CTF gametype on the same map.

 

"Possible but rather not"  Tier
(because these maps are already overplayed)

  • Lockout Ball
  • Pit TS
  • Warlock TS/Ball/Bomb
     

Lower Priority Tier

  • High Noon KOTH (tested before)
  • Penance KOTH (tested before)
  • Pit KOTH
  • Reflection Ball
  • Reflection KOTH
  • Reflection TS (Reflection has been tested before)
  • Solitary KOTH (map just doesn't work for 4s)
  • BC CTF (would be dope with round switching but we don't have a tiebreaker)
  • 3 plots on anything (this is just Strongholds with worse scoring and it was dismissed from MLG after v1 or 2, probably for a reason)
  • 1 Flag on anything (because we don't have scripting for stuff like tiebreakers and stopwatch mechanics)
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