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Hard Way

What changes should be made to Reach's competitive settings going forward?

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2 hours ago, Basu said:

Because mods aren't happening on Xbox anytime soon. These are supposed to be MM settings. If course I'd love a 4sk DMR with 2x zoom, faster strafe, no more flinch and deafening grenades etc. and I'm gonna try to do exactly that on PC, but that what realistic means in this context. We're lucky if we can even get 45s camo and a better OS, which aren't even actual mods but hidden gametype settings. Hell we're lucky if we can change the settings at all, let's be real here. They didn't change the H3 v8 settings, they didn't add H2A forge maps to the circuit and instead milked the same 3 old maps, they didn't remove ARs and radar from H5 for what 2 two years? HCS people aren't exactly known for listening to the community and making quick, reasonable improvements to the settings.

Add gonagon, I’d like to try those modified settings 

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Anyone remember mlg element? That map was awesome, it should return for hardcore, heck’s 343 already has it as a 1v1 playlist.

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27 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Anyone remember mlg element? That map was awesome, it should return for hardcore, heck’s 343 already has it as a 1v1 playlist.

Has been suggested multiple times throughout the thread.

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1 hour ago, Hard Way said:

Please don’t let her derail this thread. Please. Find the willpower to ignore this stupid crap. Let her bait out her arguments elsewhere. It’s not even a good faith suggestion. She literally just wants to argue.

Let's actually end this discussion with a proper argument, I swear it will be short:

1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

This is a literal thread started by you to offer competitive suggestions for potential improvements or ideas to the pre-established settings of the game. I’m offering a weapon swap suggestion on the basis of flinch being a problem in this game that is insanely exacerbated by the sniper. I’m literally conceding to the idea of replacement over simple removal, even in spite of my obvious disdain FOR power weapons to make the idea more fair and appealing to a wider audience. This is literally the least bad faith, and the most on topic I could be, and I don’t get the venom, dude. What’s up with you.

Yes, you are right about this thread and your idea has been seen by many people here.
But there is a small thing you might have not read or forgot about:

13 hours ago, Hard Way said:

I can't stress this enough: We need to have community consensus before replacing something.

I know this is mentioning replacing in the context of maps but the same community consensus applies for changes like the one you proposed. So far I have seen nobody but you state this so it's basically the least "agreed on" it could be.
Think that's a pretty good way of thinking about those ideas, you can post them and try to get people on your side but with this "no sniper" idea I have only noticed negative feedback, I know your posts have a single like from another user but I don't want to put words in his/her mouth. The bottom line really is (almost) nobody thinks this would work and (almost) nobody thinks this will be well received by the playerbase or the 343 member in charge of the settings.
At this stage it doesn't really matter if you add additional information of how much more competitive it would be or not.

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1 minute ago, Basu said:

Has been suggested multiple times throughout the thread.

You know I gotta be honest came into the thread after there were two pages of comments. The recent comments I’ve seen keep mentioning anchor 9 and power house.

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2 minutes ago, Arlong said:

You know I gotta be honest came into the thread after there were two pages of comments. The recent comments I’ve seen keep mentioning anchor 9 and power house.

No worries the map is on our radar (huehue).
You got a point with it being used in 1s already, would bring some extra consistency to the settings but I think only playtesting can tell how it does for 4v4 without sprint and bloom.

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5 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

No worries the map is on our radar (huehue).
You got a point with it being used in 1s already, would bring some extra consistency to the settings but I think only playtesting can tell how it does for 4v4 without sprint and bloom.

Didn’t arena use the map though? Remember arena V4 which was MLG v7 settings. It plays quite well.

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2 hours ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Let's actually end this discussion with a proper argument, I swear it will be short:

Yes, you are right about this thread and your idea has been seen by many people here.
But there is a small thing you might have not read or forgot about:

I know this is mentioning replacing in the context of maps but the same community consensus applies for changes like the one you proposed. So far I have seen nobody but you state this so it's basically the least "agreed on" it could be.
Think that's a pretty good way of thinking about those ideas, you can post them and try to get people on your side but with this "no sniper" idea I have only noticed negative feedback, I know your posts have a single like from another user but I don't want to put words in his/her mouth. The bottom line really is (almost) nobody thinks this would work and (almost) nobody thinks this will be well received by the playerbase or the 343 member in charge of the settings.
At this stage it doesn't really matter if you add additional information of how much more competitive it would be or not.

A sample size of five (figuratively, it’s maybe ten, lol) players is hardly a community consensus or a reason for dismissal. More so a vocal minority. Likewise, there were comments on that about broadening proverbial horizons, there. Ideally, this wouldn't just be about us. It’d be an actual community consensus, or as close as you’d get to one. Ultimately, don’t really mind. Feedback is feedback. I doubt much will change at all, in the long run. So, I’m just saying a piece.

But now this is derailing itself.

 

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21 minutes ago, Arlong said:

You know I gotta be honest came into the thread after there were two pages of comments. The recent comments I’ve seen keep mentioning anchor 9 and power house.

Didn't say it to be mean lol, just that you're not alone in thinking the map might work. Don't know how it scales without sprint, but having a known map that supports TS is already a huge plus, it being in 1v1 is something I didn't know actually, that's awesome.

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5 minutes ago, Basu said:

Didn't say it to be mean lol, just that you're not alone in thinking the map might work. Don't know how it scales without sprint, but having a known map that supports TS is already a huge plus, it being in 1v1 is something I didn't know actually, that's awesome.

Oh I know what you meant, lmao, it’s my fault for being too lazy to read the first set of comments.

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Removing that flinch aspect really is a good thing for the game. That totally is something that could be suggested to 343 should they ever be willing to help us. Removing the sniper rifle isn't something that will happen because you both want to make improvements to the game and to preserve people's nostalgia. They're still there trying to play MLG Reach. This would be v8 or v7.5 not an entirely new game mode. 

I think your big contenders for things which will fit in with the current line up and essentially be plug and play would be Zealot and Sanc bomb along with Oasis koth. We already know these really do work at that level of gameplay its just about how willing we are to exceed the two gametypes per map limit. Reflection is straight up a bad map before talking about annoying grenade mechanics on the hardwood surfaces all over it. There is a reason Ivory Tower was no longer played in H2 and why it was removed in Reach despite us really not wanting to use so many forge maps. I do not think sanc bomb should replace CTF because specifically bomb games on that map can be dragged out and into replay OVER AND OVER and fixing that would require work that we might not get away with. Sanc bomb is just a very low scoring gametype

Oddball could be a great addition on warlock or lockout should we be unable to find another way to play it. I think having an oddball map is the easy new addition as long as it works. Warlock is probably the vote here since there is an MLG version floating around for that map already somewhere with a proper layout and spawns

Going way back here I vaguely remember on Power House the actual power house building in testing was blocked off so you couldn't actually enter it. That map probably still exists somewhere too but that really was so long ago and played so little that I don't really remember much about it. There were just so many useless places on that map or weird spots that TS was basically off the table and you're looking to direct movement with koth to salvage the map

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So I’m gonna attempt to create an organized list of possible to do things. I liked @Hard Way idea of having a 6 TS/ 2/2/2/2 objective split for maps and think it’s the best idea we have to build upon v7 settings. I compiled @Basu list of potential maps and grouped them by game type. Here’s what I have:

 

Current settings

TS: Zealot, Countdown, Sanc, Battle Canyon, Penance

• We need to add one TS to make 6

CTF: Zealot, Countdown, Sanc, Pit

• We need to replace two of these with bomb maps

KOTH: Nexus, Battle Canyon

• We need to add two ball maps

 

Possible TS

Potential Tier

• Oasis, Element, Powerhouse, Nexus

Overplayed Tier

 Pit, Warlock

Low Priority Tier

 reflection

 

Possible Bomb Maps

Potential Tier

• Countdown, Oversoul, Sanc, Zealot, Nexus

Overplayed Tier

 Warlock

 

Possible Ball Maps

Potential Tier

• Nexus, Zealot

Overplayed Tier

 Lockout, Warlock

Low Priority Tier

 reflection

 

Possible KOTH Maps

Potential Tier

• Oasis, Splash, Powerhouse 

Low Priority Tier

 reflection, high noon, penance, solitary

 

Possible CTF Maps

Potential Tier

• A9

Low Priority Tier

 BC (round switching)

 

Things to to keep in mind:

These lists aren’t our definitive only options, feel free to add to them.

Some of these maps need tweaking on forge (which I’m pretty sure won’t be out on release)

Its a good idea to keep to only two game types per map.

Some of the maps, like those in the KOTH section in v7 can still be replaced if wanted.

Also feel free to disagree with how the game type splits should be set up.

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Quote

Nexus King of the Hill > Nexus Assault > Nexus Capture the Flag > Nexus Slayer > Nexus Oddball

Found this interesting quote from the creator of Nexus. I guess we could add Nexus Assault and maybe TS to the list. (we really don't need even more CTF candidates)

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Personally I don't think we got any good ball maps and I don't want to add more remakes to the pool so what about a possible 3/3/2 CTF/KoTH/Bomb? Gives a bit more breathing room to keep most CTF and KoTH gametypes from v7 and even add a new KoTH (example: Powerhouse), the one CTF we would lose could potentially be Pit if we have 2 good maps to play bomb on.
The 2/2/2/2 sounds nice on paper but realistically CTF has always been weighted above other objectives and it's probably easier to bank on that with all the symmetrical arenas we got at our hands. Developing a solid ball map so quickly seems unrealistic to me and it would be completely unknown which is usually not a good sign when it comes to how people react.

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13 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Personally I don't think we got any good ball maps and I don't want to add more remakes to the pool so what about a possible 3/3/2 CTF/KoTH/Bomb? Gives a bit more breathing room to keep most CTF and KoTH gametypes from v7 and even add a new KoTH (example: Powerhouse), the one CTF we would lose could potentially be Pit if we have 2 good maps to play bomb on.
The 2/2/2/2 sounds nice on paper but realistically CTF has always been weighted above other objectives and it's probably easier to bank on that with all the symmetrical arenas we got at our hands. Developing a solid ball map so quickly seems unrealistic to me and it would be completely unknown which is usually not a good sign when it comes to how people react.

This makes sense too, I personally like the idea of replacing Sanc and Zealot CTF for their Bomb counter parts. and this works by then just adding Pit CTF.

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Just now, andregr said:

This makes sense too, I personally like the idea of replacing Sanc and Zealot CTF for their Bomb counter parts. and this works by then just adding Pit CTF.

Sanc Bomb is very prone to 0-0 from what I remember.

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Whether we go 2/2/2/2 or 3/3/2 for objective, I feel like with fourteen gametypes the map pool can get bloated if we have too many different maps. If we are going to have two-gametype limit per map I feel that we should also have only seven maps in the pool, with each one played twice. This is a much easier sell to 343, as I don't think they would want to end up with something like nine or ten maps players would have to learn for competitive.

Thoughts on limiting the map pool to seven maps with each map given two gametypes?

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Just now, Noodle said:

Whether we go 2/2/2/2 or 3/3/2 for objective, I feel like with fourteen gametypes the map pool can get bloated if we have too many different maps. If we are going to have two-gametype limit per map I feel that we should also have only seven maps in the pool, with each one played twice. This is a much easier sell to 343, as I don't think they would want to end up with something like nine or ten maps players would have to learn for competitive.

Thoughts on limiting the map pool to seven maps with each map given two gametypes?

Bad idea imo, a map pool exists to bring in variety to begin with. Personally got bored with the 11 gametypes on the 7 maps in the v7 playlist rather fast,and would welcome settings with 10 or so maps. ZBNS already is a different game to some extent so people won't know how it plays without testing themselves in the playlist.
Also with the 2 best of 7 series you literally get the same exact maps in both series which is boring even if they use a different gametype, good teams should be able to do well on all kind of maps and a pool with more variety is a better test for that.

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1 minute ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Why are we so committed to maintaining a certain gametypes split before we even know what the best gametypes are?

Not sure about others, but I'm open to the idea of playing around with more after some testing, but think that it's a good idea to go this route as a basis of figuring out how to prioritize testing. I think it would be a more productive use of our time to test out things we need to round out a lineup first rather than blow a lot of time at the start trying to figure out which are the very best slayers or flags to use if we already have plenty of valid options.

I feel like extending the list from 11 gametypes to 14 is almost closer to making a new list than curating a current one and we should form this list in mind with tournament structure before trying to then curate it and select the very best from a bunch of valid options. MLG kept tournament structure in mind when forming its settings, if you look at the interview @Basuposted with the creators of Nexus and Element you see them mention that their maps weren't tested much for certain game modes because of the 11 map limit in place (a reflection of the gametypes being formed with tournament structure in mind).

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I think it’s also important to note that what we conclude on will last less than a year, so it doesn’t need to be perfect just good enough to sustain for a year. After that we can go complaining about the setting 343 will impose on us for Infinite. That is unless Infinite completely flops and we somehow decide to run the scene grassroots on previous games like smash bros does.

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6 minutes ago, andregr said:

I think it’s also important to note that what we conclude on will last less than a year, so it doesn’t need to be perfect just good enough to sustain for a year. After that we can go complaining about the setting 343 will impose on us for Infinite. That is unless Infinite completely flops and we somehow decide to run the scene grassroots on previous games like smash bros does.

which brings up another point, is it even worth making all these changes when we could just continue with h3 (boring i know) or go back to  h2 for the last few months? instead of trying to fix Reach.

 

As I said that tho I realized NBNS never had a real chance on the circuit and this would be the chance it deserves...

 

I just can't help feel there is no way 343 will actually do half of this because 'it's not what the original game offered' Hey I hope i'm wrong but...

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6 minutes ago, znot said:

which brings up another point, is it even worth making all these changes when we could just continue with h3 (boring i know) or go back to  h2 for the last few months? instead of trying to fix Reach.

 

As I said that tho I realized NBNS never had a real chance on the circuit and this would be the chance it deserves...

 

I just can't help feel there is no way 343 will actually do half of this because 'it's not what the original game offered' Hey I hope i'm wrong but...

I think Reach is the way to go because of all the new and returning players coming to view the scene because that’s all PC players will be able to play for the time being.

 

on that last part, I think that’s why we’ve had this theme of making the changes only to build upon v7 and make any tweaks reasonable. So hopefully these aren’t too much of changes, so they can quickly be tested and implemented.

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Off topic We need more zero bloom playlist. Idk about you, but I’d like to play some regular stuff with radar but zero bloom 

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9 minutes ago, znot said:

which brings up another point, is it even worth making all these changes when we could just continue with h3 (boring i know) or go back to  h2 for the last few months? instead of trying to fix Reach.

 

As I said that tho I realized NBNS never had a real chance on the circuit and this would be the chance it deserves...

 

I just can't help feel there is no way 343 will actually do half of this because 'it's not what the original game offered' Hey I hope i'm wrong but...

ZBNS is better than H3 by a mile and IMO could be very close to H2 if the map and gametype pool was improved.

And honestly, why not try? Even if this all gets dismissed at least we learned something and get good settings for MLG customs or even improvements Goldpro settings.

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