Jump to content
Hard Way

What changes should be made to Reach's competitive settings going forward?

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Nobody's gonna freak out about it. This isn't 2011 anymore - H3 will remain at least as popular as Reach. They access Pit without even changing their disc. If not having a forged Pit is a dealbreaker for somebody I'd say they weren't all interested to begin with.

Apply the last sentence to Postums and you see what I mean. I know it sucks playing it this save and keeping all 11 but keep in mind the guy was in favor of AR/SMG starts for the longest time.

5 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Also, regardless of 4sk or 5sk, faster weapon timers need to be a thing. 2 minute rockets, 1 minute camo, 1 minute OS/custom.

Same deal - I can already picture the "it's not staying true to the original" response if we push this.
Just don't want to risk it, we can have faster items in gold pro.

Share this post


Link to post
8 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Also, regardless of 4sk or 5sk, faster weapon timers need to be a thing. 2 minute rockets, 1 minute camo, 1 minute OS/custom.

If I remember correctly, Custom in v7 functioned as a x2 damage resistance buff, and made your shields charge at half the rate. Camo was weak as well.

I can agree with the power ups respawning faster, but not the Rocket Launcher. My reasoning for the latter is that its strength and ease of use is far too much compared to the Sniper, Grenade Launcher, or the Power Ups. If we made the system down the road where Power Ups were up dynamically every minute, and the Snipe/GL and Rockets up two and three minutes respectively, I think it would create some interesting scenarios that would benefit the settings overall.

Share this post


Link to post

I'm messing around on Penance right now. Jetpacks are SO much better than just throwing in a shotty lift or rigging up some cheap teleporter and calling it a day. You can attack from sweaty, you can bounce from red plat over to sweaty plat (or vice versa) and use the bulky top snipe platform as a sightline blocker. Then either go up sweaty or go up to top snipe. You can go up anywhere in shotties and not just where the lift sends you, which is often a free kill for the other team anyway. There's no shortage of valid, useful routes you can take.

It won't be a free takeover for bottom team - there's still going to be a bit of coordination required. But bottom team will have a lot more options and there will be a lot less sitting around. Put two jetpacks on the bottom somewhere. One in PR, the other at plasma pistol. I'm telling you.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

I'm messing around on Penance right now. Jetpacks are SO much better than just throwing in a shotty lift or rigging up some cheap teleporter and calling it a day. You can attack from sweaty, you can bounce from red plat over to sweaty plat (or vice versa) and use the bulky top snipe platform as a sightline blocker. Then either go up sweaty or go up to top snipe. You can go up anywhere in shotties and not just where the lift sends you, which is often a free kill for the other team anyway. There's no shortage of valid, useful routes you can take.

It won't be a free takeover for bottom team - there's still going to be a bit of coordination required. But bottom team will have a lot more options and there will be a lot less sitting around. Put two jetpacks on the bottom somewhere. One in PR, the other at plasma pistol. I'm telling you.

Classic mistake is to think the team out of control will get those, if the team controlling top has the 2 jetpacks they won't ever respawn unless the player with it dies and it will make their control even stronger to have top with 2 jetpacks. Stuff like dropping down for sniper and rocket when they line up and jetpacking back up is possible with 2 jetpacks.
The shotty lift is a constant route while jetpacks can be denied and have a downtime after the player with it dies slowing down the map further if a team has to wait for one to make a decent push.

  • Like (+1) 3

Share this post


Link to post
26 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Same deal - I can already picture the "it's not staying true to the original" response if we push this.
Just don't want to risk it, we can have faster items in gold pro.

If he's gonna stonewall over something like 2 minute rockets instead of 3 minutes, why even deal with him? Honest question. It's not even worth it at that point, just make our own shit. I view faster weapon timers as the starting point for a better product. Nobody seriously views 3 minute rockets as some sacred pillar of the Halo: Reach experience.

20 minutes ago, S0UL FLAME said:

If I remember correctly, Custom in v7 functioned as a x2 damage resistance buff, and made your shields charge at half the rate. Camo was weak as well.

I can agree with the power ups respawning faster, but not the Rocket Launcher. My reasoning for the latter is that its strength and ease of use is far too much compared to the Sniper, Grenade Launcher, or the Power Ups. If we made the system down the road where Power Ups were up dynamically every minute, and the Snipe/GL and Rockets up two and three minutes respectively, I think it would create some interesting scenarios that would benefit the settings overall.

Camo was 30 second duration, other than that it was fine. Bungie patched out the movement thing (for MLG gametypes) in like V3 or something. When I said OS/custom I wasn't thinking specifically of the damage resistance buff, just whatever we can come up with to fill that slot.

Rockets need to be two minutes, because they are what keep the game moving. Three minute rockets leads to very H5-esque gameplay with too much downtime where people just spin their wheels. Rockets = power play opportunity. Power play opportunity = great chance to break through for a score (in CTF/bomb) or put several kills or a nice chunk of time on the board. You could make the same ease of use argument about CE or any other Halo game. So what?

Share this post


Link to post
18 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Classic mistake is to think the team out of control will get those, if the team controlling top has the 2 jetpacks they won't ever respawn unless the player with it dies and it will make their control even stronger to have top with 2 jetpacks. Stuff like dropping down for sniper and rocket when they line up and jetpacking back up is possible with 2 jetpacks.
The shotty lift is a constant route while jetpacks can be denied and have a downtime after the player with it dies slowing down the map further if a team has to wait for one to make a decent push.

You don't think the shotty lift will be denied? Top shotties isn't somewhere you want to be, especially if you're lifting up blind and the other team knows you're coming. It's an easy kill for them.

Yeah, the attacking team would have the jetpacks on lockdown for as long as they stayed alive after taking top, but that's where faster weapon timers come into play. More battles for rockets and camo (placed sensibly, instead of at fucking lilypads), not to mention objectives, means much less chance of them being able to sit on the jetpacks all game.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

Okay, Powerhouse: (can't believe it's been almost ten years since I've been on a lot of these maps - trying to summon my memories while also looking at them with a fresh eye)

I don't see any reason why this map can't not only work, but be a lot of fun for team slayer, if you do it right. It was one of the only enjoyable maps in OG Reach, really this, Zealot, and A9 were the only ones I liked (fuck default Countdown). You have powerhouse and green as possible oddball setups. For possible hill locations, you have bottom middle in the water (probably would be the main hill), bottom bridge where the water lets out, focus rifle, top DMR, possibly top dormitories. I definitely want one flag to get a look here too. I'm thinking the flag be at hammer, with the return point at P2. Or in asymm flag that would be weak flag and strong flag. I know traditionally you put the flags at the ass end of the map opposite from one another, but I like providing an opportunity to get behind the flag, which you can't really do on maps like Wizard, Sanctuary, or Fathom, or even Zealot.

125/200 jump settings means you can jump up to hammer roof from the catwalks below (not possible in default), maybe put a power weapon up here? Not sure about a powerup, there's absolutely no cover and it'll probably just get burned. I'm thinking sniper. You can probably leave the rockets where they are, in the spillway by powerhouse. If somebody already has a jetpack and they're able to just grab them and jetpack their way up to P1 or P2, that's their reward for playing well and having some foresight. I'm thinking a jetpack in the showers (grenade launcher in default) and another one at water tank. Stick a camo/powerup at dormitories, on a delayed spawn, if we don't put anything else other there. The initial spawns should be mostly fine as is for slayer/king/ball with that weapon layout, just tweak them a bit so that no one has a clear advantage in that initial foot race to rockets/objective.

Share this post


Link to post

Powerhouse I just can’t see being a good map for competitive unless some parts of the map are cut off

Share this post


Link to post

If you were going to ask 343 for help with making Reach more approachable while ALSO improving the competitive settings I've got three things which may be big or small I'm not entirely sure

1. Give us an overshield that is both multiple shields (exactly like the custom in H3) and charges quickly once picked up to reduced the immortality period.

2. Give us a 'nerfed' jet pack that functions like the current jet pack does with the gravity settings that we use. That way people wouldn't have alien feeling jumps/falls

3. Change the rate at which our movement decelerates so that increased movement speeds do not result in a slippery feeling so that the movement wouldn't, once again, feel alien to a normal Reach player

All of those are things that only 343 can help us with. If they can pull that off they would just polish and improve the experience without causing any confrontation with nostalgia 

  • Like (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

I'm messing around on Penance right now. Jetpacks are SO much better than just throwing in a shotty lift or rigging up some cheap teleporter and calling it a day. You can attack from sweaty, you can bounce from red plat over to sweaty plat (or vice versa) and use the bulky top snipe platform as a sightline blocker. Then either go up sweaty or go up to top snipe. You can go up anywhere in shotties and not just where the lift sends you, which is often a free kill for the other team anyway. There's no shortage of valid, useful routes you can take.

It won't be a free takeover for bottom team - there's still going to be a bit of coordination required. But bottom team will have a lot more options and there will be a lot less sitting around. Put two jetpacks on the bottom somewhere. One in PR, the other at plasma pistol. I'm telling you.

jetpacks aren't good because they're loud AF and ur way easier to hit. 1 jetpack should be on the map. The portal isnt just there to break setups. Spawning bottom shit puts you so far away from anything useful. 

 

I'm also on team "all lifts should be a portal"

Share this post


Link to post
21 minutes ago, Riddler said:

I'm also on team "all lifts should be a portal"

That's a stupid philosophy imo, they are different and good maps will use the right choice where it makes sense. Easy example: Zealot bottom mid has 2 lifts to blue/red landing, replace those with teleporters and the map would play worse since people are on the landings without warning.
The gold pro version of Penance does have 2 one-way portals and 1 two-way portal already, there are also 3 lifts, replace all 3 of them with portals and the map would be silly.

@Larry Sizemore Powerhouse should be tested for slayer as well as other gametypes once the game is out.

@Snipe Three the stuff you mentioned would be good to bring up while we submit the best we can currently do. I think the first and third point are pretty big, not so sure if we really need another version of the jetpack.

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

That's a stupid philosophy imo, they are different and good maps will use the right choice where it makes sense. Easy example: Zealot bottom mid has 2 lifts to blue/red landing, replace those with teleporters and the map would play worse since people are on the landings without warning.
The gold pro version of Penance does have 2 one-way portals and 1 two-way portal already, there are also 3 lifts, replace all 3 of them with portals and the map would be silly.

@Larry Sizemore Powerhouse should be tested for slayer as well as other gametypes once the game is out.

There is warning, if you see someone go bottom mid.

Silent lifts could be cool, but we don't got them

Share this post


Link to post

Here's a wacky and potentially really dumb idea for A9... what about a powerup on the sabre in the middle of the map? The only way to get up there currently is with a jetpack, unless you forged a jump-up or a one-way tele. Normally I don't like teleporter cheese, but if you put the sender down at the end of the "access tunnel" area, going towards space, and the receiver up top on that little platform that's high over the dead center of the map, that might just work. That's all in-bounds up there. Maybe I need to go to bed.

  • Thonking (+0) 1

Share this post


Link to post

I'm actually pretty interested in people's opinions of the MLG pit in v7 Reach. I ran a few games earlier and it made me remember just how much smaller that map really is in Reach with 120 movement speed. Vertically it feels a little flat compared to H3. I can't really say that I felt like it was really that good of a map 

  • Like (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

May I suggest some kind of discord server for people who want to take part in this kind of stuff?

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Snipe Three said:

I'm actually pretty interested in people's opinions of the MLG pit in v7 Reach. I ran a few games earlier and it made me remember just how much smaller that map really is in Reach with 120 movement speed. Vertically it feels a little flat compared to H3. I can't really say that I felt like it was really that good of a map 

It's okay-ish, the lower sniper towers and the weaker OS make the sword side of the map a bit less important than it is in H3 I feel like but overall it still works.
If 343 would help us with a quickly charging double layer OS the map would play better but I wouldn't expect something like that.
 

36 minutes ago, Mow said:

May I suggest some kind of discord server for people who want to take part in this kind of stuff?

Basu and me are working on a discord for gold pro which should be ready on Dec 3rd, it would probably be reasonable to use the same for testing lobbies.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, S0UL FLAME said:

I'll think about it.

Dude that would be sick.

4 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Okay, Powerhouse: (can't believe it's been almost ten years since I've been on a lot of these maps - trying to summon my memories while also looking at them with a fresh eye)

I don't see any reason why this map can't not only work, but be a lot of fun for team slayer, if you do it right. It was one of the only enjoyable maps in OG Reach, really this, Zealot, and A9 were the only ones I liked (fuck default Countdown). You have powerhouse and green as possible oddball setups. For possible hill locations, you have bottom middle in the water (probably would be the main hill), bottom bridge where the water lets out, focus rifle, top DMR, possibly top dormitories. I definitely want one flag to get a look here too. I'm thinking the flag be at hammer, with the return point at P2. Or in asymm flag that would be weak flag and strong flag. I know traditionally you put the flags at the ass end of the map opposite from one another, but I like providing an opportunity to get behind the flag, which you can't really do on maps like Wizard, Sanctuary, or Fathom, or even Zealot.

125/200 jump settings means you can jump up to hammer roof from the catwalks below (not possible in default), maybe put a power weapon up here? Not sure about a powerup, there's absolutely no cover and it'll probably just get burned. I'm thinking sniper. You can probably leave the rockets where they are, in the spillway by powerhouse. If somebody already has a jetpack and they're able to just grab them and jetpack their way up to P1 or P2, that's their reward for playing well and having some foresight. I'm thinking a jetpack in the showers (grenade launcher in default) and another one at water tank. Stick a camo/powerup at dormitories, on a delayed spawn, if we don't put anything else other there. The initial spawns should be mostly fine as is for slayer/king/ball with that weapon layout, just tweak them a bit so that no one has a clear advantage in that initial foot race to rockets/objective.

Problems I see with TS and Ball is how much of a power position the powerhouse itself is. Limited entrances and two players can essentially lock down the entire map. I like where GP put the sniper (top of the ramp that ends next to hammer spawn). Rockets and a powerup can go spillway and waterfall bridge, don't really care which goes which. GL default is good. KOTH is definitely the strongest gametype, but I'd love to play asym Flag even if it's just for GP customs. Having 2-Flag but played in rounds like CoD/TF does it might actually be cool.

3 hours ago, Snipe Three said:

I'm actually pretty interested in people's opinions of the MLG pit in v7 Reach. I ran a few games earlier and it made me remember just how much smaller that map really is in Reach with 120 movement speed. Vertically it feels a little flat compared to H3. I can't really say that I felt like it was really that good of a map 

It's... fine? Definitely plays better than in H3, but the higher movement speed makes it play almost like another map. Agree on the flatness, wish we could stretch the map vertically.

  • Like (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

K25 Sanc for sure. Could bring back some old gametypes too for testing too. Why not take also take a look at prisoner or Heh now that the framerate will be fixed?

Warlock CTF, Slayer, King, Ball, Bomb

Pit King

Zealot Bomb

Sanc Bomb

Element Slayer, CTF

Onslaught CTF

For beaver slayer maybe put the weapons back to h2 spawns and add a delayed camo behind blue like they used to do on Construct?

Also if we could fix the power ups that could do give us options for the older maps as well

  • Like (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

Are people’s here problem with lifts because you can “hear” people come up them? Like damn if only that lift didn’t make a sound my flank would of been perfect. That’s how y’all sound.

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, Warlord Wossman said:

It's okay-ish, the lower sniper towers and the weaker OS make the sword side of the map a bit less important than it is in H3 I feel like but overall it still works.
If 343 would help us with a quickly charging double layer OS the map would play better but I wouldn't expect something like that.
 

Basu and me are working on a discord for gold pro which should be ready on Dec 3rd, it would probably be reasonable to use the same for testing lobbies.

I’d be down for that, I only played gold pro a couple times back in the day, and most in the lobby instantly hated it, because they felt they died too fast.  Also will this be for pc or Xbox or both? 

Share this post


Link to post
17 minutes ago, Arlong said:

I’d be down for that, I only played gold pro a couple times back in the day, and most in the lobby instantly hated it, because they felt they died too fast.  Also will this be for pc or Xbox or both? 

Ideally both, but who knows with the PC aiming. 

Share this post


Link to post

Reposting this here. Also, while @Hard Wayproposed 14 gametypes for the BO7, I think a 15th tie-breaker gametype could/should also be included to allow for the "continuation series" that used to occur with BO5 -> BO11 events:

Dev maps/gametypes I think have potential for Reach competitive. Some have already been used and all would need some level of forge work. Also I'm a member of the OBJ gametypes are more interesting than TS gametypes club, hence the disparity:

Anchor 9 CTF
Battle Canyon CTF
Countdown CTF
Zealot CTF
Zealot Bomb
Battle Canyon KOTH
High Noon KOTH
Penance KOTH
Reflection KOTH
Solitary KOTH
Reflection Ball
Zealot Ball
Powerhouse TS
Penance TS

Reflection TS

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Basu and me are working on a discord for gold pro which should be ready on Dec 3rd, it would probably be reasonable to use the same for testing lobbies.

Grudge matches? Sounds fun!

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, Arlong said:

Powerhouse I just can’t see being a good map for competitive unless some parts of the map are cut off

Am I correctly assuming your issue with the map is the outside, grassy areas? I think instead of cutting these dead-zones off, you can simply use power weapon/placement or zone (hill) placement to navigate movement to the better areas of the map. 

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use & Privacy Policy.