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Hard Way

What changes should be made to Reach's competitive settings going forward?

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Forge maps on Tempest are a bit rough on the eyes. The map's default lighting gives all the gray stuff this weird glow. I'm not a fan.

I'd rather have one forge map, with two gametypes, and that's it (my vote would go to Nexus or Oasis, they're both good king maps and surely we could make slayer or flag/bomb work for one of them). More than one forge map and they start to look alike and anyone who isn't intimately familiar with them gets thrown off. To quote various people from the old MLG forums, S P E C T A T O R   E X P E R I E N C E.

I've also had enough Warlock, Sanc, and Lockout for a lifetime. Those were the only three H2A maps too, I just don't see any reason to bring them back.

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11 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Forge maps on Tempest are a bit rough on the eyes. The map's default lighting gives all the gray stuff this weird glow. I'm not a fan.

I'd rather have one forge map, with two gametypes, and that's it (my vote would go to Nexus or Oasis, they're both good king maps and surely we could make slayer or flag/bomb work for one of them). More than one forge map and they start to look alike and anyone who isn't intimately familiar with them gets thrown off. To quote various people from the old MLG forums, S P E C T A T O R   E X P E R I E N C E.

I've also had enough Warlock, Sanc, and Lockout for a lifetime. Those were the only three H2A maps too, I just don't see any reason to bring them back.

Honestly that forge remake of sanc was, unfortunately, the best map in Reach competitive settings. Especially with the old Reach voting system you'd end up playing that almost every game. It was really telling when it came down to it how people just avoided many maps like the plague

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Well Sword Base got voted all the time in regular matchmaking so I don't know if that's indicative of much. When given a vote people typically choose either the most exploitable map (I.e. any map that will give them a free shotgun spree for lift camping), or if no such map is on the menu, the map they feel safest on, which will usually be a remake. Hence Sanc and Hemorrhage and Ragnarok always getting voted.

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I don't really think the people voting for sword base or playing btb are the audience you were getting in the mlg playlist in reach for the most part. It was just a good map that works for any Halo that isn't CE because of the sight lines in a game stacked with not so good maps. Its pretty much the one forge map that you can't remove or replace without it being very controversial.

I think a safer route right now would be asking to at least raise the carbines up and maybe moving towards the H2A layout of weapons. We played sanc before and after Reach as well as during it so we know how sanc works and I would assume most would find those to be improvements that wouldn't really impede nostalgia 

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So @Warlord Wossman and me ran around in Forge for a bit. BIggest points are:

Changes to existing maps:
- Creek: use the GP weapon layouts but keep the default teleporters. This means remove 2nd snipe at red, camo in blue cave, rockets on arch. Both teams spawn next to their base (on the "narrow side" not the one where the side entrance to the base is). Maybe rockets don't spawn at start, that should be tested.
- Penance: Use the GP layout. Rockets in pit, camo at red2. Snipe1 at default, GL top mid. Teleporter from red1-red2. Experiment with a teleporter from shit room to green 1, might be too cheesy though. Add a piece of cover to the landing of the Shotgun lift so people don't get melted from green when going up that lift.
- Sanc: Either flat out use K25 or at least incorporate the raised cars and more rocks. R3 and jump-up changes are up for discussion. Changing camo to OS would be cool but the Reach OS is so fucked without modding that it doesn't really make sense right now.
 

Gametype changes and additions:
In general, keep the existing 11 gametypes. People are probably gonna rage if you remove things like Sanc TS or Pit CTF. Yes in an ideal world we would get rid of these but we all know how many people out there vote would for Sanc 24/7.

That means we need two more obj and one more TS map.

- Add Powerhouse KOTH (This has the problem that we now have three KOTH because both Nexus and BC play KOTH best. But we're adding a disk map so that's cool)
- Oversoul Bomb. Has been tested in GP before with good results.
- Additional Team Slayer map. This is a hard one. None of the unused disk maps work for TS (Powerhouse might, but I doubt it) and I don't see how we're getting people to support a brand new map. Something like Element TS or Warlock TS (maybe even forged on High Noon) should work. If someone wants to port Oracle from Mythic go for it ;) Pit TS is an obvious candidate to appeal to MLG kids but I know how people here feel about it. This slot is still pretty much open so if anyone has a good suggestion here please post it!

 

The problem with things like 1 Flag and Ball is that we'd have to thoroughly test them and prove they are better than already existing gametypes that would have to be removed from them. Also @Hard Way the 2-2-2-2 split for objective sounds good to maximize variety and I'm all for that, but it's going to be hard to convince people to remove existing gametypes.

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I think BC king is a joke, and I don't support any extra teleporters or lifts on Penance aside from map default (mainly because they don't really do anything so you're just cheesing up the map for no reason). You want to give people extra ways up to top and keep people on their toes, just put two jetpacks on the map. One in PR, one in red somewhere. Then a team trying to make a play for green can have some actual options in how they attack.

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On 11/25/2019 at 3:00 PM, Hard Way said:

Currently, the v7 lineup is as follows:

TS: Zealot, Countdown, Sanctuary, Battle Canyon, Penance

CTF: Zealot, Countdown, Sanctuary, Pit

King: Nexus, Battle Canyon

 

I think the first thing we need to address, even before we get into editing and replacing gametypes, is that our tournament structure is different now than it was in 2012. We don't run extended series Bo11's anymore, but rather bo7's with the potential to play the same team twice (or even 3 times).  I think this requires 14 unique gametypes.  I think a typical series should cycle through CTF/Assault, then TS, and then King/Ball, with TS always being the Game 7.

With that goal in mind, we need to add 1 new TS and 2 new KotH/Ball gametypes to hit 14 unique gametypes.

We also need to take a hard look at the gametypes and maps we already have. It's no secret that Penance TS and Battle Canyon TS play very slow with their current map layouts, and I don't think anyone is in a huge hurry to play Pit CTF all over again instead of something new and fresh.  Our current version of Sanctuary isn't faithful to the original, and better alternatives exist. Also, and this might be an unpopular opinion given my memory of voting habits in the MLG playlist, but I think Sanctuary TS is ripe for replacement as well.

Some safe, conservative changes we can look at first include using the GoldPro layouts for Penance and Battle Canyon, and switching to the K25 version of Sanctuary. This would instantly improve Penance TS, Battle Canyon TS, Sanctuary CTF, and Sanctuary TS if we keep it.

Before we look at what we might consider as worthy additions, we should examine where our needs are.  The following are what I believe to be the gametypes safest from change (but all of this is up for debate): Zealot TS, Countdown TS, Zealot CTF, Countdown CTF, Sanctuary CTF (pending map revision), Nexus King, and Battle Canyon King. That's 7 "safe" gametypes. 2 TS, 3 CTF, and 2 King.

So if we go forward with that info, that leaves us with some holes to fill in a 14 gametype lineup. We still need 4 TS, 1 CTF (or Assault), and 2 King (or Ball). I leave those variables in because I don't yet know if we'll have the zero bloom option available to us without mods. If we do, then I think we should split the objective gametypes 2/2. 2 CTF and 2 Assault, and 2 KotH and 2 Ball. And yes, that would mean changing one of the CTF gametypes into an Assault.  I also think we should make an effort to avoid using the same map for 3 different gametypes. That way, we should never need to use the same map twice in a single bo7.

If we edit Penance and Battle Canyon and remove Sanctuary TS and Pit CTF, that leaves us with 2 brand new TS maps to fill, 1 brand new CTF/Assault map to fill, and 2 brand new King/Ball maps to fill. Some promising ideas I'm seeing floated around include a forged version of Unanchored to replace Pit, and Powerhouse KotH. But even if we hit on those, we still need to fill 2 TS's and 1 (preferably) Ball map. Now is the time to start digging up promising maps, planning your own forge maps, and organizing playtest lobbies.

Let's use this thread as our hub for spitballing ideas, showcasing potential maps, and organizing playtests.

So is this for mm or tournaments in general? 

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4 shot dmr?. I think the idea of pushing for as little forge maps as possible is important. It really is a turn off for casual viewers. Hopefully there'll be mods that can make editing the base maps easier.

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The main idea behind keeping the 11 existing gametypes (with some slight tweaks to specific maps) and adding 3 additional ones is to almost keep what is already there and expand on it. After talking for about 5 hours with Basu and going over a lot of options and forge maps I just came to the conclusion that this is a big argument when presenting it to 343 because it truely expands on the settings instead of replacing a bunch of maps left and right.
Trust me I am not the biggest fan of Pit CTF or Sanc TS but a lot of people remember them from playing Reach mlg back in the day and it would be very controversial to just rip them out now, esp after the tournaments that already happened and them being in the playlist at launch.

For Sanctuary specifically we can take a step back and edit the mlg version instead of using the K25 version but bringing some features from K25 over like the additional rocks for cover and the higher carbines. Keeping the ring 3 jump the same as it is in the current settings and not having ring 3 cover is a good compromise and basically an exact middle ground between the 2 versions.
OS vs. camo for Sanc TS should be decided through testing, we looked into what is possible with the custom powerup and you can't make a proper OS without 5 seconds of invincibility which is probably too controversial so we are stuck with the 200% damage resist custom already used on Pit CTF which makes the player take 8 shots to get to no shields and either 1 headshot or 6 bodyshots. That means a perfect kill is 9 shots vs. the default 5 which is somewhat weak but you have this fake OS for 30 seconds so it can "recharge" even if the rate is 50% slower to mimic the 2 shield bars.
Next step to buff it would be 300% damage resist resulting in 12 shots to get the player to no shields and a headshot to take him out making it a 13 shot perfect kill and I think this is too much, if we had 250% damage resist (aka. 11 shot perfect kill) I would want to see that buff but sadly it's not an option.

So 1 TS and 2 OBJ gametypes, personally I feel like the 2 OBJ are easier to fill:
- Powerhouse KoTH (the gold pro version but without the lift and the teleporter, OS being moved to vanilla Reach rocket spawn)
- Oversoul Bomb (another gold pro map, possibly needs a bit more items than 1 OS and 2 jetpacks)

For the slayer map I am really not sure, stuff like Element or Pit are floating around, those are not my favorite maps but it will be hard to come up with something completely new as I don't know about good original slayer maps available.

Maybe all of this seems rather disappointing to people who hoped for bigger changes like 4sk DMR or 1 flag etc. but gold pro customs will be a thing anyways!
Somewhat repeating myself but I want to really emphasize that we only got 1 chance and we need to convince 343 so to me it seems way more realistic to go with the 11 set gamemodes in v7, make some tweaks to Penance (most hated map in the pool rn), Battle Canyon and Sanctuary, then add 3 new gametypes with maps that bring variety into the pool.

 

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Excellent write up by Hard Way, hopefully Tashi and the HCS team dont make the same mistake as last year by not updating the competitive gametype and map rotation.  Here are my thoughts:

 

Keep TS Zealot, Countdown, Creek & Sanc.  Keep CTF Zealot, Countdown, & Sanc.   Nothing wrong with these gametypes whatsoever.

 

Remove TS Penance.  Damny & Priz only work in CE.  Remove Pit CTF, we just played a better version of this variant for over a year, why would we downgrade AND keep it in rotation?

 

Take out Nexus completely.  If we have to have a grey forge map in the rotation, at least give us something fresh after 9 years.  Wouldnt mind seeing Lockout Ball remade in Reach's forge mode.  Not sure if Team Oddball Pro (or Bomb even?) works in Reach tho.

Remove Koth Battle Canyon for literally anything else.   I love the idea of including King of the Hill, I just dont feel that Creek is the right map for it.  Does Reflection work well in Hardcore environments?  I'd rather keep the amount of grey to 2 maps maximum.

That's pretty much it, kind of a no brainer that the v7 settings must be updated before the next LAN event.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Squatting Bear said:

Does Reflection work well in Hardcore environments?

Eh. Only for team slayer and one/asymm flag (if we went there). I don't know where you'd put any hills. Oddball is a possibility I suppose. You'd probably have to re-do the weapon layout from scratch. A lot of people dislike the "maple syrup" floors since you can't bounce frag nades off them the way you can in any other map with hard surfaces. Then again Beaver Creek has the same problem and I don't see many complaints about it there so I dunno.

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14 minutes ago, Squatting Bear said:

Take out Nexus completely.  If we have to have a grey forge map in the rotation, at least give us something fresh after 9 years.  Wouldnt mind seeing Lockout Ball remade in Reach's forge mode

Right? Let's take the Reach original Nexus from 2012 out and replace it with a forged remake of a 2004 map. Flawless logic.
Nexus KoTH should 100% stay in the pool if you ask me, I already touched how expanding on v7 probably gives us a bigger chance to get heard compared to turning everything upside down.

Reflection is a terrible map for all gametypes I can think of. And frag nades getting stuck is a bigger deal than on BC because you want to nade up ramps way more on Reflection than you nade up grass/earth hills on BC.

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Would removing Pit CTF really be controversial? That gametype didn't even show up until what, V6? I think people will live. Pit sucked ass in Reach anyway. It's the only map in the official rotation that I felt had real issues with orientation.

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2 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Right? Let's take the Reach original Nexus from 2012 out and replace it with a forged remake of a 2004 map. Flawless logic.
Nexus KoTH should 100% stay in the pool if you ask me, I already touched how expanding on v7 probably gives us a bigger chance to get heard compared to turning everything upside down.

Reflection is a terrible map for all gametypes I can think of. And frag nades getting stuck is a bigger deal than on BC because you want to nade up ramps way more on Reflection than you nade up grass/earth hills on BC.

Warlord is right, if we try to scratch everything v7 off the board were just going to get laughed at. Expand upon what we have can be great. Now I’m not entirely sure gold pro is the way to go, unless you can get the community to agree upon it(by community I mean pros) for now though I think it’s better to focus on Maps and game types. Assault should return for sanctuary and zealot, I don’t think reflection would be a bad king of the hill map tbh. Some more forge maps could be nice maybe one or two, something built with oddball in mind.

is the OS having invincibility for 5 seconds really a bad thing? 
 

 

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27 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Right? Let's take the Reach original Nexus from 2012 out and replace it with a forged remake of a 2004 map. Flawless logic.
Nexus KoTH should 100% stay in the pool if you ask me, I already touched how expanding on v7 probably gives us a bigger chance to get heard compared to turning everything upside down.

Reflection is a terrible map for all gametypes I can think of. And frag nades getting stuck is a bigger deal than on BC because you want to nade up ramps way more on Reflection than you nade up grass/earth hills on BC.

Imagine comparing Lockout to fucking Nexus in that manner...

 

And we wonder why everyone left these forums years ago.

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I mean if you put a gun to my head and demanded that I pick one of the H2A maps to be re-used here, I'd pick Lockout, but I'm sick and tired of all three of them. I've especially had it with Sanctuary though. That map was never even good to begin with, it was merely "not bad" and the only other options for completely symmetrical small maps in H2 (that weren't already on the circuit) were a dull and oversized Colossus, that crates n' conveyor belts hell on earth, and fucking Backwash.

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6 minutes ago, Squatting Bear said:

Imagine comparing Lockout to fucking Nexus in that manner...

 

And we wonder why everyone left these forums years ago.

Because they don’t get listened to by 343? I thought this was a forum for those interested in competitive halo? It still shows that’s the case, but with a bit of snobbishness in the sense everyone has their idea of what makes halo better/competitive 

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25 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Would removing Pit CTF really be controversial? That gametype didn't even show up until what, V6? I think people will live. Pit sucked ass in Reach anyway. It's the only map in the official rotation that I felt had real issues with orientation.

As I said I am not a fan of this map, but besides many people on this forum giving the map shit the H3 kids out there are vastly outnumbering us so in a sense it would probably be very controversial to them. It's only one out of 14 maps if this goes through, I just don't want H3 kids to start a shitstorm about removing the H3 remake but keeping the H2 remake. If we keep the 11 original gametypes and maps it's easier to have nobody freaking out.

Trust me if we play gold pro customs you won't see it again.

23 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Warlord is right, if we try to scratch everything v7 off the board were just going to get laughed at. Expand upon what we have can be great. Now I’m not entirely sure gold pro is the way to go, unless you can get the community to agree upon it(by community I mean pros) for now though I think it’s better to focus on Maps and game types. Assault should return for sanctuary and zealot, I don’t think reflection would be a bad king of the hill map tbh. Some more forge maps could be nice maybe one or two, something built with oddball in mind.

Gold pro means 4sk DMR and faster item timers - while I would personally love that it's massively different to what v7 has been and will probably be completely discarded and many people would hate it. Postums has mentioned "staying true to the original" a million times in the waypoint blogs regarding invasion, keeping TU bloom rather than removing it altogether and so on, so I was thinking if we bite the bullet and keep the 11 gametypes already there we can use this same argument he loves so much to convince him.

That said the 14 gametype idea by @Hard Way is an excellent excuse to sneak in 3 more maps, that would be the spot where we can make a difference and have more variety. I mentioned Powerhouse KoTH (which will have a bonus because it's Reach original) and Oversoul Bomb (also original but forged) for the 2 objective modes, those are not set in stone.
If somebody has a great map for Ball please share! But I think an original map would be better than just having Lockout, we already have 4 remakes (2 dev, 2 forge) if we keep the original v7 maps. I might ask Sgt Slaphead from the H5 Mythic team if he feels like porting his Lockout and Hang 'Em High inspired map which I personally think is amazing.
 

24 minutes ago, Arlong said:

is the OS having invincibility for 5 seconds really a bad thing?

If you ask me? Probably not, but it's not ideal, if we want OS for Sanc slayer you can use those 5 seconds to cross the middle of the map and move into the enemy base to an extent and that feels rather cheesy. We experimented with a 3 second version but that only results in one layer for the OS since the shield recharge rate option for the custom power ups only effects the base layer of shields.
CE anniversary had a double layer OS we want but those settings don't exist without bloom and the OS has the weird fire effect which looks horrible imo, you can toggle it off but that would mean it's an OS you cannot see. It also comes with around 5 seconds of invincibility and with a clever nade you can probably expand it to 7,5 seconds of nobody being able to damage you. So yeah in Reach OS options are total ass.

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Just now, Larry Sizemore said:

I mean if you put a gun to my head and demanded that I pick one of the H2A maps to be re-used here, I'd pick Lockout, but I'm sick and tired of all three of them. I've especially had it with Sanctuary though. That map was never even good to begin with, it was merely "not bad" and the only other options for completely symmetrical small maps in H2 (that weren't already on the circuit) were a dull and oversized Colossus, that crates n' conveyor belts hell on earth, and fucking Backwash.

I mean it’s been remade so many times for a reason, it’s a fan favorite because it’s good. It’s fun, competitive. Notice how no one really asks for any of the h1 maps. 

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1 minute ago, Warlord Wossman said:

As I said I am not a fan of this map, but besides many people on this forum giving the map shit the H3 kids out there are vastly outnumbering us so in a sense it would probably be very controversial to them. It's only one out of 14 maps if this goes through, I just don't want H3 kids to start a shitstorm about removing the H3 remake but keeping the H2 remake. If we keep the 11 original gametypes and maps it's easier to have nobody freaking out.

Trust me if we play gold pro customs you won't see it again.

Gold pro means 4sk DMR and faster item timers - while I would personally love that it's massively different to what v7 has been and will probably be completely discarded and many people would hate it. Postums has mentioned "staying true to the original" a million times in the waypoint blogs regarding invasion, keeping TU bloom rather than removing it altogether and so on, so I was thinking if we bite the bullet and keep the 11 gametypes already there we can use this same argument he loves so much to convince him.

That said the 14 gametype idea by @Hard Way is an excellent excuse to sneak in 3 more maps, that would be the spot where we can make a difference and have more variety. I mentioned Powerhouse KoTH (which will have a bonus because it's Reach original) and Oversoul Bomb (also original but forged) for the 2 objective modes, those are not set in stone.
If somebody has a great map for Ball please share! But I think an original map would be better than just having Lockout, we already have 4 remakes (2 dev, 2 forge) if we keep the original v7 maps. I might ask Sgt Slaphead from the H5 Mythic team if he feels like porting his Lockout and Hang 'Em High inspired map which I personally think is amazing.
 

If you ask me? Probably not, but it's not ideal, if we want OS for Sanc slayer you can use those 5 seconds to cross the middle of the map and move into the enemy base to an extent and that feels rather cheesy. We experimented with a 3 second version but that only results in one layer for the OS since the shield recharge rate option for the custom power ups only effects the base layer of shields.
CE anniversary had a double layer OS we want but those settings don't exist without bloom and the OS has the weird fire effect which looks horrible imo, you can toggle it off but that would mean it's an OS you cannot see. It also comes with around 5 seconds of invincibility and with a clever nade you can probably expand it to 7,5 seconds of nobody being able to damage you. So yeah in Reach OS options are total ass.

Never found that to be a bad effect tbh, but can see why it’s not liked.  And big deal? They’d be shot to death afterwards. 

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3 minutes ago, Arlong said:

Never found that to be a bad effect tbh, but can see why it’s not liked.  And big deal? They’d be shot to death afterwards. 

You will see it in gold pro for sure, personally I just think the difference is not big enough to risk it being the one thing that has Postums decide against this whole package of suggested settings.
One option might be to keep camo on Sanc TS because on Pit and Powerhouse (given my suggestion to move OS) they are in not so problematic spots, this is something we should probably test and decide with the community. That's all I can think of when it comes to buffing OS compared to its v7 version.

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3 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

As I said I am not a fan of this map, but besides many people on this forum giving the map shit the H3 kids out there are vastly outnumbering us so in a sense it would probably be very controversial to them. It's only one out of 14 maps if this goes through, I just don't want H3 kids to start a shitstorm about removing the H3 remake but keeping the H2 remake. If we keep the 11 original gametypes and maps it's easier to have nobody freaking out.

Nobody's gonna freak out about it. This isn't 2011 anymore - H3 will remain at least as popular as Reach. They access Pit without even changing their disc. If not having a forged Pit is a dealbreaker for somebody I'd say they weren't all interested to begin with.

Also, regardless of 4sk or 5sk, faster weapon timers need to be a thing. 2 minute rockets, 1 minute camo, 1 minute OS/custom.

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6 hours ago, Hard Way said:

My only thing with Zealot Bomb was how easy it was to bank nades off the ceiling from basement to prevent an arm. I think CTF plays better on Zealot. I think Sanc Assault's pace could be quickened by using a shorter arm time for that map. I'm also really curious to see how Countdown Assault would play. Maybe that's the one that should switch to bomb?

When you first mentioned testing bomb on those three maps I immediately thought of Countdown as the first one to test. Without changes to arm time or something I fear Sanc bomb would end up even more of a stalemate than Sanc CTF, like how Shrine bomb played in H2A and I feel like the center of the map on Zealot plays out better for occasional unorthodox flag runs than unorthodox bomb pushes. I haven't played a ton of Reach though, just really my thoughts after games on the Insider build.

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