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Hard Way

What changes should be made to Reach's competitive settings going forward?

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Been disappointed over the reluctance to run round-based objective games in competitive Halo, as it would probably make several unusable maps work while freeing us from the shackles of TS, a gametype that only played well in CE. 

(Not interested in conservative changes)

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Great initial post and thoughts! I agree with everything that has been said.
Some general input I want to share before we get into map/gametype specific details:

- Disk maps that can be used should always have priority when considering what we choose, I am a forger myself but I cannot deny that disk maps just look way better and will make the playlist/tournaments feel more like Halo Reach than forged remakes. Specifically looking at Powerhouse and Anchor 9 here, the later one now being available to everybody since the DLC is included by default in MCC which was a concern beforehand.
That said the gameplay has to be on point tho, you are not going to see Sword Base for example just because it's a disk map.

- Item layouts can differ between gametypes, in mlg v7 Sanctuary already does that by having camo in TS and rockets in CTF. For me it always seemed strange that Countdown has the same weapon layout for TS and CTF given that the second layer of the map is much more important than the third one in CTF to name an example where a dual item layout could be applied to improve things.

- Deathzones should be looked at. Another example on Countdown would be that you can jetpack up to some spots out of the map and even if most of them show you a 10 second limit to get back onto the map it feels cheap that somebody could crouch up there for a few seconds getting new shields for free.
This sort of stuff should be doublechecked on every map in the pool.

I hope the stuff @Hard Way mentioned and these points we can all agree on, I am sure further down the line opinions will clash no matter what, so it's nice to agree on a common ground/mindset to get into those debates.

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I'm curious to see how Oddball would play on Zealot and Nexus.

I also think the CTF gamemode we should replace is Sanc. Sanc Bomb is pretty cool.

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Modded gametypes so we can have more than 1 powerup per map.

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1 hour ago, Aphex Twin said:

Been disappointed over the reluctance to run round-based objective games in competitive Halo, as it would probably make several unusable maps work while freeing us from the shackles of TS, a gametype that only played well in CE. 

This came up in the MCC thread. I think one flag should get a look, or the asymm flag gametype (2 rounds, switch sides at half, but both teams have a flag) that Goldpro messed around with way back when. One/asymm flag as opposed to standard flag is a natural remedy to BC's balance problem (which in its original form was built for CTF), it's a lot of fun on Penance, and it would be a good way to get Powerhouse in there. Reflection too, but I don't think anyone really likes or misses that map.

There's really nothing wrong with Penance as a map, but the weapon layout they were using in v7 was ridiculous. Whoever came up with that was smoking crack. Leave the rockets in pit where they belong, put camo in OS spot (if we can't get a functional OS), put something in PR if you have to (jetpack?), no grav lift cheese. It's not needed.

Not sure how to best clean up Anchor 9 for competitive. I don't like zero grav, but unlike Zealot, where the zero grav section sat on top of the map and could be blocked without any real consequence to map flow, A9's zero grav area has a fair bit of interaction with the rest of the map. Blocking major parts of it off creates dead ends on the outsides of the map and means top health (akin to pink in Midship) becomes that much more fortified. Only way to fix that is teleporter/man cannon cheese. I think the best solution is to just remove the shield doors and not put any items at all in the zero grav area.

I want to just get rid of Sanctuary altogether, but that's probably unlikely. Boring map that at its worst in Reach. Nexus is fine.

I'd really want to have a modded overshield that charges quickly, like H1 or H2 or H3's custom, instead of taking like six seconds.

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I posted this in another thread but thought I would post it in here since it seems relevant.

"In the future, we would like to experiment with a TU version of Invasion with some other tweaks introduced to retain this balance. This would mainly involve buffs to the accuracy and/or range of the Plasma Repeater."

 

I found this little bit from the latest MCC blog post quite interesting, mainly the fact that they are willing to make balance changes to individual weapons, I don't recall them ever mentioning anything like that in the past in regards to MCC and it makes me wonder how far we could push them and what other kinds of changes they would be willing to make for comp settings perhaps.

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9 minutes ago, Larry Sizemore said:

I'd really want to have a modded overshield that charges quickly, like H1 or H2 or H3's custom, instead of taking like six seconds.

I assume this thread is for discussing settings that could theoretically run on both console & PC. Changing the Overshield to make it work how it did in older games is practically impossible with the options we're given, and modding how the actual game works is a slippery slope because we might as well fix everything else wrong if we're going to just be changing how a single powerup works. The best we can do is the MLG powerup.

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3 hours ago, Hard Way said:

I think the first thing we need to address, even before we get into editing and replacing gametypes, is that our tournament structure is different now than it was in 2012. We don't run extended series Bo11's anymore, but rather bo7's with the potential to play the same team twice (or even 3 times).  I think this requires 14 unique gametypes.  I think a typical series should cycle through CTF/Assault, then TS, and then King/Ball, with TS always being the Game 7.

Thank you for making this the very first point to guide the basis of our changes to the settings. I recently made a post with concerns over the fact that UGC and Dreamhack seem set on not running Bo11 extended series which was the basis for MLG gametype counts and we really need 14 unique gametypes in the ratios you've outlined if we are to keep with the HCS tournament format.

Is there anyone who disagrees with expanding the gametype pool to fourteen gametypes with the ratios as outlined by Hard Way? Is this something we all agree we can all agree with as what we are basing our proposed revisions on?

No objections so far, would love to keep the discussion moving forward as such, but if there are any objections it would be best to get those out of the way first.

Thank you, Hard Way, for starting the thread and pushing for an organized community effort to open up the possibility of change to the settings.

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The K25 Sanc should be the new version of Sanctuary for sure.

Element Slayer should be tested again. I felt that was one of the better gametypes.

There was a version of Anchor 9 that was pretty good that didnt get in and instead we got The Pit again. Replacing it might help how gray the game is.

Powerhouse hill was alright iirc. Wouldn't mind testing it

Zealot Bomb was another gametype that was alright and a lot better than Countdown and Sanc Bomb. 

MAYBE test the AGL version of Onslaught? It was bigger in Reach than 3 and was pretty fun even though it was another remake.

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9 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

 

Not many major changes. I guess the aesthetic and perhaps proportions are slightly different, but the jump up to the top of ring just looks worse and I'm not sure that we really need a custom power up in the center. Rockets would be just fine.

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2 minutes ago, TI Inspire said:

Not many major changes. I guess the aesthetic and perhaps proportions are slightly different, but the jump up to the top of ring just looks worse and I'm not sure that we really need a custom power up in the center. Rockets would be just fine.

The carbines are higher which is nice, the ring 3 jump is closer to the original not sure why you think it's "worse", with the ring 3 cover added it kinda has to be like that. Also there are additional rocks for cover which is again closer to the original.
Rockets in slayer would be a terrible decision, in mlg v7 a camo does spawn there but the argument for an OS is that it actually encourages to hold ring with it where camo is designed to break setups which is not really needed if it spawns in the most powerful position on the map...

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6 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

The carbines are higher which is nice, the ring 3 jump is closer to the original not sure why you think it's "worse", with the ring 3 cover added it kinda has to be like that. Also there are additional rocks for cover which is again closer to the original.
Rockets in slayer would be a terrible decision, in mlg v7 a camo does spawn there but the argument for an OS is that it actually encourages to hold ring with it where camo is designed to break setups which is not really needed if it spawns in the most powerful position on the map...

I like having the ring 3 jump be easier than it was in the original, so I'm not necessarily a fan of this version, but the added cover could be a nice trade off.

You're right about rockets, thinking about it more it definitely would be a bad idea. OS is fine I guess.

Altogether, this map only changes things slightly and my expectation is that we'll probably keep seeing Halo 3 be the main game til infinite IMO.

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You're right that we should push for disk maps first and foremost, as "grey maps bad" is still the #1 concern people have with Reach's MLG gametypes. Obvious candidates are A9 Flag/Bomb, Powerhouse KOTH, Penance KOTH, Zealot Bomb, Zealot Ball. If we were to experiment with completely new gametypes there's also 3 Plot on Sanc/BC, and two-round 1 Flag on Penance/Reflection/Powerhouse/Creek/High Noon.

The Prisoner remake was tested but never really worked for 4v4 and there were some really ugly frame drops which are hopefully fixed in MCC Reach. We could give it another shot.

As for Forge maps: There were some good forge maps that got removed from the MLG circuit before ZBNS hit. Mainly Element, Android, Oasis and Redemption. Adding these back would probably go easier with the community than pushing an entirely new map. Element TS has already been suggested and as we need a new TS to replace Sanc it makes a good fit. Android is an excellent Flag map, maybe also Bomb and I always liked Oasis KOTH.

Speaking of Sanc, please add the K25 Sanc as it fixes a ton of issues like Car being too long and not blocking LoS effectively, more cover, looks better etc. If MLG Sanc is to stay I'd have another suggestion: Someone back in the day remade it on Tempest which has a slightly different tint to forge items. We should definitely make use of that since everyone has all DLC now. Also I know everyone is tired of that map by now, but there are tons of Lockout remakes and I'm pretty certain we have ZB Ball available. Just throwing it out there.

GoldPro also had two other great Forge maps: Retroactive and Oversoul:

Both could work for MLG settings, I've heard Bomb on Oversoul is a gem.

Lastly, neat little known fact: The Anniversary maps also have newly textured forge pieces and although there's isn't that much space to forge on, I remember xX Overkill VR tried to expand the Anniversary map pool made a Wizard remake on High Noon back in the day that looked fantastic, sadly it never got added to the playlist. So we could maybe also make use of that option.

 

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8 hours ago, Basu said:

You're right that we should push for disk maps first and foremost, as "grey maps bad" is still the #1 concern people have with Reach's MLG gametypes. Obvious candidates are A9 Flag/Bomb, Powerhouse KOTH, Penance KOTH, Zealot Bomb, Zealot Ball. If we were to experiment with completely new gametypes there's also 3 Plot on Sanc/BC, and two-round 1 Flag on Penance/Reflection/Powerhouse/Creek/High Noon.

The Prisoner remake was tested but never really worked for 4v4 and there were some really ugly frame drops which are hopefully fixed in MCC Reach. We could give it another shot.

As for Forge maps: There were some good forge maps that got removed from the MLG circuit before ZBNS hit. Mainly Element, Android, Oasis and Redemption. Adding these back would probably go easier with the community than pushing an entirely new map. Element TS has already been suggested and as we need a new TS to replace Sanc it makes a good fit. Android is an excellent Flag map, maybe also Bomb and I always liked Oasis KOTH.

Speaking of Sanc, please add the K25 Sanc as it fixes a ton of issues like Car being too long and not blocking LoS effectively, more cover, looks better etc. If MLG Sanc is to stay I'd have another suggestion: Someone back in the day remade it on Tempest which has a slightly different tint to forge items. We should definitely make use of that since everyone has all DLC now. Also I know everyone is tired of that map by now, but there are tons of Lockout remakes and I'm pretty certain we have ZB Ball available. Just throwing it out there.

GoldPro also had two other great Forge maps: Retroactive and Oversoul:

 

  Hide contents

 

 

Both could work for MLG settings, I've heard Bomb on Oversoul is a gem.

Lastly, neat little known fact: The Anniversary maps also have newly textured forge pieces and although there's isn't that much space to forge on, I remember xX Overkill VR tried to expand the Anniversary map pool made a Wizard remake on High Noon back in the day that looked fantastic, sadly it never got added to the playlist. So we could maybe also make use of that option.

 

 

That reminds me, maybe bring back some of the other remakes like the Warlock remake.

maxresdefault.jpg

 

 

Another map element, which was a warlock twist.

maxresdefault.jpg

 

I wasnt a big fan of retroactive but I didn't mind MLG oasis, the MLG king map. But I understand if no one else liked OASIS

 

 

 

edit: I should read the thread more before posting. :tear:

 

 

 

I think android is a bit too big for competitive now. That was a map for sprint, and while most of the maps work well now with no sprint I think android is a bit of an outlier. Those top bridges are super open but I'd love to see it played first.

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I can't fully remember but I think Warlock was removed back in the day because Reach spawns made the map play rather terrible.
As for other maps that have already been used like Oasis, Android, Element, etc. those maps were all made when sprint and bloom was in the settings, I probably wouldn't dig any of those maps up. That said Element might be a ZBNS 1v1 map on MCC, I think I read something about Sanc and Element being 1v1 somewhere on waypoint.

Having one of the forge maps on Tempest is a good idea, it does make the entire map look slightly differently with the tint. I guess if we want to do this efficiently we need some people with experience in forge to help out. The only downside I can think of is the periodic noise you get on this map from the skybox, we have to see how bad that is once the MCC version is out.

Oversoul is a map we can keep in mind for bomb as I only heard suggestions for Zealot and Sanc so far.

Another tough topic is oddball, Lockout remakes do exist but other than that I am not sure which maps we would use.
I thought Penance might actually work with ball since the team holding top has fewer guns when getting ball time to hold the position but some of the problems I see with this is that there is probably only 1 viable setup and most ball maps concidered good in the past (Lockout, Guardian) have more than 1 and additionaly you cannot cross the 2 way teleporter holding the ball if we keep those "10 seconds to return to map" zones since that makes the ball reset instantly.
They were put there in the first place to make it impossible to block the teleporter by standing on it after going through since the game sadly has no telefrag mechanic which would be way better than what we currently have...

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How does everyone feel about using 2 CTF’s and 2 Assaults? Same question for King and Ball. If that is something we want to pursue, then either Zealot, Countdown, or Sanc CTF needs to switch to Assault. Any consensus on this? Personally I’d like to see it be Sanc.

Also, how do you guys feel about restricting each map to a maximum of 2 gametypes? This would allow us to avoid playing the same map twice in a bo7. If that’s something we feel is worth striving for, then that means modes like BC CTF or Zealot Ball wouldn’t be added, and we’d have to look elsewhere (or cut one of their current gametypes).

Regarding use of Onslaught or anything else from the H3 lineup, I think we should avoid those. This is a chance to do something unique for this game, and I think we should take advantage of that. In fact, forged remakes in general are unappealing to me. I understand that’s an uphill battle with Sanctuary, but let’s let that be the only one, please.

Another unique map to consider: Splash KotH. AGL ran it back in the day and it looked fun. I never tried it though.

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20 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

or the asymm flag gametype (2 rounds, switch sides at half, but both teams have a flag) that Goldpro messed around with way back when.

This is what I was referring to. Lots of potential. 

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Spoiler

 

Nexus King
Powerhouse King (?)
Zealot Slayer
Zealot Bomb
Sanc Slayer

Sanc Flag

Countdown Slayer

Countdown CTF

Element Slayer

Element Flag (?)

Anchor 9 CTF (?)

Anchor 9 Slayer (?)

Battle Canyon Slayer 

Battle Canyon King (?)

 

The question marks are for gametypes that should be tested and just some spitball ideas. Anchor 9 should just replace Pit altogether with the right tweaks. And the assault gametypes we dont have a no bloom version for them unless it is toggle-able. I remember Sanc bomb being a really slow gametype so from past experience I don't want to play that again but It'd be worth a try. I don't mind BC King but i feel there are better King maps. Nexus is the best King map in Reach so I think it should stay.

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13 minutes ago, The InSan3 One said:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

Nexus King
Powerhouse King (?)
Zealot Slayer
Zealot Bomb
Sanc Slayer

Sanc Flag

Countdown Slayer

Countdown CTF

Element Slayer

Element Flag (?)

Anchor 9 CTF (?)

Anchor 9 Slayer (?)

Battle Canyon Slayer 

Battle Canyon King (?)

 

The question marks are for gametypes that should be tested and just some spitball ideas. Anchor 9 should just replace Pit altogether with the right tweaks. And the assault gametypes we dont have a no bloom version for them unless it is toggle-able. I remember Sanc bomb being a really slow gametype so from past experience I don't want to play that again but It'd be worth a try. I don't mind BC King but i feel there are better King maps. Nexus is the best King map in Reach so I think it should stay.

BOMB on zealot wasnt terrible but it already has slayer and CTF.

 

 

Wait, am I stupid? Was bomb even on zealot?

 

edit: nvm yeah it was. Can I just say I'm glad one thing carried over from h3?

 

FLAG/BALL GLITCHING!!!! :ace:

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My only thing with Zealot Bomb was how easy it was to bank nades off the ceiling from basement to prevent an arm. I think CTF plays better on Zealot. I think Sanc Assault's pace could be quickened by using a shorter arm time for that map. I'm also really curious to see how Countdown Assault would play. Maybe that's the one that should switch to bomb?

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18 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

My only thing with Zealot Bomb was how easy it was to bank nades off the ceiling from basement to prevent an arm. I think CTF plays better on Zealot. I think Sanc Assault's pace could be quickened by using a shorter arm time for that map. I'm also really curious to see how Countdown Assault would play. Maybe that's the one that should switch to bomb?

like sanctuary wasnt a backboard for grenades either haha

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