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Classic Halo Esports and HCS Grassroots 2021 Discussion Thread

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@Hard Way - I've spent the better part of the work week watching the UGC Halo CE 2v2 on the side - thank you so much for the entertainment, this was a joy to watch from start to finish. 

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13 hours ago, Snipe Three said:

I really do think they can easily make skill based automatic weapons the problem is that the idea of "automatic" in Halo actually means "totally random bullets in a wide cone for a somewhat short distance that takes absolutely no skill to use whatsoever" and when you buff that obviously bad shit happens

As long as they stick to that fundamental design and their only tuning knobs are range and damage they'll never make a well designed assault rifle that's healthy for the game. Even the best AR (CE) design wise is only okay fundamentally because it just doesn't actually matter. You can do a few neat tricks with it but if you just deleted it from the game there would be minor differences at best. That's the ceiling for their idea of the AR from CE to Halo 5. They have to come up with a new idea if they want to do something better than that. Its fine if they want to just throw that actual junk into the game for nostalgia's sake but hopefully they use their other automatic weapon slots for something else that may actually improve the game.

The AR design in CE serving as the inspiration for every other automatic we ever got after that game was actually poison for the sandbox 

I've thought this about the auto's for a while, there's no reason they have to be as badly designed as they are, the commando in Infinite has be kind of curious for this very reason tbh, seems like a new take on an automatic weapon that we haven't seen before in a Halo game.

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Theres a huge difference in gameplay with the BRs mechanics that make for better game design and a better Halo experience.

The BR is better.

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11 minutes ago, Rdispushedback said:

Theres a huge difference in gameplay with the BRs mechanics that make for better game design and a better Halo experience.

Let us know when you're ready to explain why. 

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34 minutes ago, Rdispushedback said:

Is there a utility that adds a greater overall skillgap to the game or is ttk going to be the only thing you talk about

TTK is one of, if not the most important aspects of an FPS. Halo's population has been in the gutter for a decade and long TTKs are to blame because nobody likes feeling powerless in an FPS.

Beyond that, long TTKs make Halo less competitive by forgiving bad plays more & restricting the meta to teamshooting only. If you want to make an argument about why long TTKs are good for halo, make your case. 

Beyond minimum TTK, I also mentioned that single shot is more skillful than burst fire, random RNG bullet spread makes the game less competitive, 3sk is more punishing than 4sk, and the lack of a difference between avg and minimum TTK makes Halo less competitive. 

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"It's just Better", Your turn.

"it just works because it's my opinion and you don't know how to tell the difference between facts and opinion", Your turn.

Professional 🤡

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1 hour ago, Rdispushedback said:

How do maps benefit from 3sk over 4sk

How do weapons benefit from 3sk over 4sk

I answered this last page. Your still here.

3sk gives you less room for error vs 4sk which makes it more skillful and makes 1v1s more competitive, but again, it's the fast TTK that makes the overall game play better. You can have a 4sk utility with the same TTK as the 3sk pistol by upping the ROF.

You actually didnt answer how long TTKs are better for Halo's design, gunplay, maps, meta, skill gap, etc...  all you said was, "it's just better." 

Let us know when you have a case to make for long TTKs.

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8 hours ago, Obnokshus said:

@Hard Way - I've spent the better part of the work week watching the UGC Halo CE 2v2 on the side - thank you so much for the entertainment, this was a joy to watch from start to finish. 

That means a lot man. I'm really glad you enjoyed it. That was one of the best weekends of my life :)

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TTK is hard to use as a measurement. There’s a lot of factors that go into play. Take quake vs COD for example. The average TTK in quake is almost infinitely higher that the average TTK in COD but is there anyone who really thinks the individual 1v1 skill gap in COD is higher than quake?

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23 hours ago, Shekkles said:

I've rarely seen someone so confidentially wrong.

Right or wrong doesn't matter when the goal is to be an intentionally bad faith argumentative troll who spews the same crap on repeat with his umpteenth account.

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Don't know if anyone cares, but with Reach Hardcore they swapped out Pit on Forge World with a version build on Tempest.  I don't know if the change in map had anything to with it (my gut says no but I'm not up to date with Reach's spawn zone system) but the spawns will flip sides on Pit Slayer.

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On 4/22/2021 at 10:35 PM, Snipe Three said:

I really do think they can easily make skill based automatic weapons...

The AR design in CE serving as the inspiration for every other automatic we ever got after that game was actually poison for the sandbox 

 

21 hours ago, Mow said:

I've thought this about the auto's for a while, there's no reason they have to be as badly designed as they are, the commando in Infinite has me kind of curious for this very reason tbh, seems like a new take on an automatic weapon that we haven't seen before in a Halo game.

Most of these scenarios are founded upon Bungie not being consistent with their design goal throughout the original trilogy. I honestly think they should've ran with the oddness they did with the two weapons you start out with; a pistol that was strong, an automatic that was spammy and weak, were juxtaposed to most of the weapon designs of the other games before it.

As for automatics in general, I still have the firm belief of having weapons not step into the boundaries of other weapons to the point of redundancy; Bungie were really close at doing this in their first Halo, but decided to reinvent the wheel, and failed. If autos were meant to be spammy and weak, let them be spammy and weak.

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15 hours ago, Hard Way said:

That means a lot man. I'm really glad you enjoyed it. That was one of the best weekends of my life :)

It showed. How could I get my hands on whatever version of CE the tournament used? What's the difficulty in acquiring og xbox hardware and peripherals? 

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5 hours ago, S0UL FLAME said:

 

Most of these scenarios are founded upon Bungie not being consistent with their design goal throughout the original trilogy. I honestly think they should've ran with the oddness they did with the two weapons you start out with; a pistol that was strong, an automatic that was spammy and weak, were juxtaposed to most of the weapon designs of the other games before it.

As for automatics in general, I still have the firm belief of having weapons not step into the boundaries of other weapons to the point of redundancy; Bungie were really close at doing this in their first Halo, but decided to reinvent the wheel, and failed. If autos were meant to be spammy and weak, let them be spammy and weak.

I think there's room for an accurate automatic in Halo especially with it coming to PC, having every auto feel like shit on M&KB is very unappealing. Sure, let the regular AR remain the weak and spammy crutch weapon for newer/unskilled players that it has always been, but I'm pretty interested in seeing if Halo could pull off a skill based auto weapon and I don't see a good reason why it couldn't be done even with the limitations that the Halo formula places on the weapon design (lack of ADS and recoil etc.) as long as the DMR isn't in the game then the Commando shouldn't have any redundancy issues but ofc that has yet to be seen.

I think the real issue is making something that function well on both controller and M&KB, you can easily make an accurate AR for a Halo PC title with minimal effort but when you have to take controller and aim assist into account it gets a lot more complicated. Arguably the accommodation of controller is the reason behind most of Halo's poor design decisions but that can't really be helped with it being a console game and all, and I still believe there's a middle road which could appease both but it just requires weapon design that is a little more sophisticated than what we are used to with the Halo sandbox.

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the purpose of the 3sk is to kill fast by you

What about the 4sk

What is the purpose of the 4sk?

Can you answer that?

What is the better gameplay for Halo. Is what we will compare when you answer the 4sk.

CE has such a low number of ways it can be played its like playing octagon.

I see a lot of people on here talking about more weapons. Is a bigger weapon sandbox better for Halo. With the BR there can be. Bigger weapon skillgaps too that are supportive to the utility.

Halo 3 set the standard for what people want in a shooter and how a shooter should be. Teamwork and skill. COD vs Halo.. Halo always did it better.

Your Minimum ttk is false

Teamshooting opinion is false

Your arguments for a teamshootingless game makes no sense. COD would roll Halo if we went to using the 3sk

 

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33 minutes ago, Rdispushedback said:

What is the purpose of the 4sk?

Can you answer that?

You're so close.

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8 hours ago, Obnokshus said:

It showed. How could I get my hands on whatever version of CE the tournament used? What's the difficulty in acquiring og xbox hardware and peripherals? 

www.halo1nhe.com

You'll need OG Xboxes (2 for on/off host, 3 for neutral host), CRT TV's, and 4-5 controllers. None of those are particularly hard to find on Facebook Marketplace, Craigslist, or local game shops. The only real tricky part is modding the boxes and getting NHE loaded onto them. I've always had it done for me, so I can't speak to how it's done, but I'm sure there's a Youtube tutorial on how to mod boxes somewhere. I know it involves Splinter Cell or Mech Assault 2.  The .readme that accompanies the NHE download probably has instructions as well.

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17 hours ago, Morachip said:

Don't know if anyone cares, but with Reach Hardcore they swapped out Pit on Forge World with a version build on Tempest.  I don't know if the change in map had anything to with it (my gut says no but I'm not up to date with Reach's spawn zone system) but the spawns will flip sides on Pit Slayer.

Nice to see 343 didn't even read the map's description before putting into matchmaking.

343pls.png

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9 hours ago, Rdispushedback said:

the purpose of the 3sk is to kill fast by you

What about the 4sk

What is the purpose of the 4sk?

Can you answer that?

If you're asking why the developers chose to double the utility weapon's minimum TTK from CE to H2 & 3, it's probably because their scrub playertester's feedback was "waaaah I dont like how I die so fast" 

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CE has such a low number of ways it can be played its like playing octagon.

Feel free to explain why, I'll let you know why you're wrong. 

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I see a lot of people on here talking about more weapons. Is a bigger weapon sandbox better for Halo.

No. The only gun in Halo 1's sandbox that is totally worthless is the needler. Any gun that's not a utility or power weapon in Halo 2 and 3 is worthless. What's the point of a bigger sandbox if most of it is worthless?

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Your Minimum ttk is false

Teamshooting opinion is false

You dont have to take my word for it - go compare Halo 2 & 3 MLG gameplay to Halo 1 Beach LAN. Notice how much team strategy opens up with the CE pistol.

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Your arguments for a teamshootingless game makes no sense. COD would roll Halo if we went to using the 3sk

I'm not actually arguing for a teamshootingless game, I'm arguing for a game where teamshooting isnt the only viable strategy. Halo CE showed how to achieve fast TTKs while avoiding 'who-sees-who-first' gunfights.

CoD, counter strike, valorant, etc... roll halo right now because the TTKs are too long. Nobody likes feeling powerless in a shooter. 

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6 minutes ago, Aphex Twin said:

Icounter strike, valorant, etc... roll halo right now because the TTKs are too long. Nobody likes feeling powerless in a shooter. 

What a coincidence, two games that have incredibly fast minimum ttks, but all of a sudden balloon up if you don't hit the haed.

You know, I've been trying to put my finger on why I ended up liking CE so much after playing it for the first time when MCC came out.  I think you're right in that a not-insignificant part is because I could actually leave a gunfight with shields left consistently, as opposed to constantly being one-shot after every engagement like I tend to be in 5 (although I can't aim for shit in H5 to the point I'm rocking 1 sensitivity, so maybe I'm just trash at that game).  

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4sk is current.. 3sk isn't.

Need me to explain why?

I asked the question insuating your responees are not valid with the answer.

 

3sk obviously has a faster ttk then 4sk... obviously....obviously.

How is the 3sk ttk better then the 4sk as different options for the game. Whats wrong with the 4sk mechanics.

Incoming

Its faster... 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rdispushedback said:

4sk is current.. 3sk isn't.

Need me to explain why?

TTKs were slowed down due to Halo's playtesting team being horrible at the game and giving awful feedback to bungie. Feel free to counter if you have a point to make here. 

1 hour ago, Rdispushedback said:

3sk obviously has a faster ttk then 4sk... obviously....obviously.

How is the 3sk ttk better then the 4sk as different options for the game. Whats wrong with the 4sk mechanics.

I actually already explained this to you, but: 

1. Longer TTKs are less punishing. If you're caught in a bad position or down a shot in a gunfight, you dont have the luxury of strongsiding to safety when TTKs are faster. 

Let me know if you have an argument as to why more forgiving gameplay is better for Halo. 

2. Longer TTKs turn the game into teamshooting only. Your gun isnt strong enough to take out opponents on your own, it's why you never see BRs in H3 montages. With faster TTKs, you need to be able to do more than just teamshoot.

Let me know if you have an argument as to why teamshooting should be the only viable team strategy in Halo.  

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