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Classic Halo Esports and HCS Grassroots 2020 Discussion Thread

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1 hour ago, Trespa5s said:

People also sleep on H5.  I get that the competitive scene was kind of a meme for like 95% of the game's life, but it was a lot better than a good chunk would like to give credit for. 

I get this sentiment, I really do. The bones are there—I genuinely think the Magnum is the best utility weapon we've had since CE (if you control for button combos in H2). But every time I pick the game back up, I am reminded how destructive Spartan Abilities are to the overall game. I just can't respect the "MOveMEnT" skill gap enough to believe Spartan Abilities don't make the game far, far worse than H3, even with all of H3's flaws.

 

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10 hours ago, hvs500 said:

Why is a br inherently better than any other form of utility? @Rdispushedback

If there's a better utility let it be known but don't misinterpret the facts as personal opinions. My opinion is the BR is the best utility and read my posts as to why.

Pertaining to my opening statement. Shall we debate.

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36 minutes ago, Rdispushedback said:

If there's a better utility let it be known but don't misinterpret the facts as personal opinions. My opinion is the BR is the best utility and read my posts as to why.

Pertaining to my opening statement. Shall we debate.

Why is burst fire better than single shot? Burst fire allows you to sweep shoot, giving you an easier final headshot vs single shot. 

 

The H2 and H3 BRs have TTKs twice as long as the CE pistol, neutering your ability to be effective with just the BR. Why is a weaker utility good? 

 

The BR's avg TTKs in H2 and H3 are pretty much equal to their respective minimum TTKs (thanks to generous levels of aim assist and bullet magnetism) compared to the CE pistol where there's a gap between min and avg TTK. Why is it better to have a utility with no difference between min and avg TTK? 

 

The BR in H3 has maybe 1/3rd of the CE pistol's range. Check out the vid below where aiming directly at an idle player's head gives you a 9sk (should be a 4sk) where the CE pistol gives you a 3sk at the same range (about 33 seconds in):

Why is it good to have a utility with such a low amount of range?

 

The Halo 3 BR has a random, uncontrollable bullet spread - notice in the video below how the bullets randomly spread out as they hit green wall: 

 
Why is it good to have RNG determine where your bullets land?
 
If the BR's rifle skin is the main benefit vs the pistol, why not just make BR single shot with all of the CE pistol's mechanics? 3sk, long range, projectile, etc...
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1 hour ago, Aphex Twin said:

If the BR's rifle skin is the main benefit vs the pistol, why not just make BR single shot with all of the CE pistol's mechanics? 3sk, long range, projectile, etc...

You don't even need to make the BR visually single-shot. It can be de facto single shot behind the scenes, while still appearing—both through audio and visual cues—to be burst fire. All the benefits of a good utility weapon, combined with "BR go brrrr-brrrr-brrrr."

You just have to deal with the crowd who thinks treating the casual fanbase as naive little children is somehow unethical.

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2 hours ago, Rdispushedback said:

How does a 3sk benefit Halo more then a 4sk? 

In my mind it's less about the number of shots to kill and more about the TTK. However, you could make the argument that a 3sk with slower ROF is more punishing - if you miss a shot, you need to wait a longer amount of time before you can correct your mistake compared to a 4sk. 

That said, I wouldnt have any issues with a CE pistol that was 4sk but faster ROF so that the minimum TTK is the same. 

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18 minutes ago, Rdispushedback said:

"The"

How does the whole Halo experience benefit more from CE then Halo 3 in regards to each games utility mechanics.

Stronger utilities (both in terms of range and TTK) punish mistakes harder & allow you to kill opponents without always needing another teammate's assistance. The meta can develop beyond just teamshooting with a stronger utility.

That's not to say teamshooting isnt an effective strategy in CE, but CE's TTKs give you the freedom to run plays where you aren't always in your teammates' LOS. Weaker utilities in H2 and H3 limit the number of viable strategies in the game which reduces the skill gap.

Taking a step back from competitive merit and weighing the 'whole experience,' players dont like feeling powerless in a shooter. Reach, H4 and H5 are unpopular vs games like CoD, CS, valorant, etc... because it takes so long to kill opponents, players feel useless on their own. The numbers show that this is not a fun experience, otherwise Reach-H5 would have been more popular.

CE showed us you can have fast TTKs without gunfights turning into 'who-sees-who-first.'

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19 minutes ago, Rdispushedback said:

Versatility is the key to why Halo 3 is competitively popular and successfull.

It being feature complete at launch, having new innovative features, being a beautiful looking game, a passable ranking system, an engaging XP system and being the continuation of the most popular series on the console was why it was popular. The gameplay had very little to do with it.

Reach had a lot of the same things going for it, but it’s gameplay wasn’t good enough to hold it up. H3’s was. Barely.

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BRs mechanics make for

Map Design - Better maps

Weapon Sandbox - Better weapons

The game was built around the BR mechanics.

Strafe - Better mechanic

Design - Better

The most competitive 1v1 battles in Halo.

 

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6 minutes ago, Rdispushedback said:

BRs mechanics make for

Map Design - Better maps

Why do weaker utility weapons make map design better?

6 minutes ago, Rdispushedback said:

Weapon Sandbox - Better weapons

Why do weaker utility weapons lead to better weapon sandboxes?

6 minutes ago, Rdispushedback said:

The game was built around the BR mechanics.

Strafe - Better mechanic

How do weaker utility weapons make strafing a better mechanic?

6 minutes ago, Rdispushedback said:

Design - Better

How do weaker utility weapons make 'design' better?

6 minutes ago, Rdispushedback said:

The most competitive 1v1 battles in Halo.

Why do weaker utility weapons which dont punish mistakes as much make 1v1s more competitive?

6 minutes ago, Rdispushedback said:

The BR is not only a more skilled weapon but it allows for a better experience

Why do weaker utility weapons make the game more competitive & allow for a better experience? Why cant games with weaker utility weapons, like Halo Reach - Halo 5, attract an audience as large as CoD, counter strike, etc...?

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9 minutes ago, Rdispushedback said:

BRs mechanics make for

Map Design - Better maps

Weapon Sandbox - Better weapons

The game was built around the BR mechanics.

Strafe - Better mechanic

Design - Better

The most competitive 1v1 battles in Halo.

 

Why is it better than previous installments in each category, in your opinion?

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Over/under for misspelled words, wrong punctuation, and words used incorrectly in this upcoming response is set to 5. Place your bets.

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1 hour ago, Hard Way said:

Reach had a lot of the same things going for it, but it’s gameplay wasn’t good enough to hold it up. H3’s was. Barely.

Bloom/Sprint Reach wasn't good enough*  Core H3 wasn't good enough either, but Bungie/MLG was actually willing to alter things for competitive H3 in a timely manner.  

Seriously, I dare anyone to try to tell me that we'd be fawning over H3 if we had fucking bubble shields and regen orbs in competitive.  Imagine construct KOTH but with everyone dropping a bubble shield on the hill, or someone sitting P3 on Midship with constant health regen and tell me that would be good.  The core gameplay (shooting/movement/nades/melee) was there, but without those changes it would have horrid. 

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6 minutes ago, Trespa5s said:

Bloom/Sprint Reach wasn't good enough*  Core H3 wasn't good enough either, but Bungie/MLG was actually willing to alter things for competitive H3 in a timely manner.  

Seriously, I dare anyone to try to tell me that we'd be fawning over H3 if we had fucking bubble shields and regen orbs in competitive.  Imagine construct KOTH but with everyone dropping a bubble shield on the hill, or someone sitting P3 on Midship with constant health regen and tell me that would be good.  The core gameplay (shooting/movement/nades/melee) was there, but without those changes it would have horrid. 

I was just talking about the masses and the vanilla experience. But you’re right. It would have been a joke.

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4 hours ago, Hard Way said:

Over/under for misspelled words, wrong punctuation, and words used incorrectly in this upcoming response is set to 5. Place your bets.

I'll take the over

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10 hours ago, Rdispushedback said:

Any AR in competitive ruins the game

Automatics that weren't designed to be weaker than the utility by a significant margin is what causes Halo to fall apart. There're only two Assault Rifles that meet this criteria; Combat Evolved and Reach. The latter game fell apart even more with the introduction to Bloom and Armor Abilities. The former had a strong and skillful gun to go alongside it, which made its role much more obvious. A sandbox that keeps the roles of its tools fixed and easy to understand creates a simple, yet deep, meta to discover and pour time into.

Unfortunately, we don't get to experience that in our franchise anymore. Our main weapon has deteriorated into a tool that can kill a little faster than two seconds, that has nearly no difference to its fastest kill time and average kill time because of its ease, no matter which game you look at past the first Halo. That weapon should be brought back to its original foundation, and having a secondary automatic, that knows what it is, should be partnered with it. Statements that suggest otherwise are unknowledgeable in history, and those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it.

Study. Please.

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I really do think they can easily make skill based automatic weapons the problem is that the idea of "automatic" in Halo actually means "totally random bullets in a wide cone for a somewhat short distance that takes absolutely no skill to use whatsoever" and when you buff that obviously bad shit happens

As long as they stick to that fundamental design and their only tuning knobs are range and damage they'll never make a well designed assault rifle that's healthy for the game. Even the best AR (CE) design wise is only okay fundamentally because it just doesn't actually matter. You can do a few neat tricks with it but if you just deleted it from the game there would be minor differences at best. That's the ceiling for their idea of the AR from CE to Halo 5. They have to come up with a new idea if they want to do something better than that. Its fine if they want to just throw that actual junk into the game for nostalgia's sake but hopefully they use their other automatic weapon slots for something else that may actually improve the game.

The AR design in CE serving as the inspiration for every other automatic we ever got after that game was actually poison for the sandbox 

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I've rarely seen someone so confidentially wrong.

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