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Classic Halo Esports and HCS Grassroots 2020 Discussion Thread

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3 minutes ago, OG Nick said:

That really isn't the issue. Halo 2 base 2 tower maps all play very similarly, with some variation to try to make them different. Even if they look different they play the same. Playing the same is the issue. Halo can't really expect to have maps like CS:GO maps because simply put, CS:GO has more depth on a PvP level, strategy level, economy system, etc. Maps haven't been solved entirely in CS:GO. While there are key things players are supposed to do on maps (I'll take a moment to say I don't play CS:GO only watch) teams have their own ways of doing things. That's how things are kept fresh on those maps. Midship, Truth, Coliseum, Simplex, Onslaught, etc. have played very similarly since H2, and that's what gets stale. While I don't think we need to cut out a 2 base 2 tower map, I think that people have such a fixation on them for no other reason than "It's like midship" which causes other maps to be ignored. And those maps cut out for the Midship clones could very well be better than Midship. 

Oh I'm totally on board with finding a bunch of maps with different styles.  I'm just saying that from game to game having the same maps isn't an issue in and of itself.  

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I'm just against another 2 base 2 tower map without actually testing other maps. Which is what is happening. 

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Should just expand the gametype pool. Remove penance for warlock slayer. Add onslaught CTF and warlock CTF. Tweak beaver slayer. 

 

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Again, we already have Countdown, Zealot and Sanc CTF. Pit CTF is likely to stay. That's 4 CTF gametypes, more than enough. Why the fuck is Onslaught CTF even being considered? 

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4 hours ago, Basu said:

Again, we already have Countdown, Zealot and Sanc CTF. Pit CTF is likely to stay. That's 4 CTF gametypes, more than enough. Why the fuck is Onslaught CTF even being considered? 

It was in Halo 3 so it must be good! Plus some faux integrity that prevents us from testing other maps

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4 hours ago, Basu said:

Again, we already have Countdown, Zealot and Sanc CTF. Pit CTF is likely to stay. That's 4 CTF gametypes, more than enough. Why the fuck is Onslaught CTF even being considered? 

Easy. CTF is the best gametype. Dont really need more than that. Where's the uproar about having 5x more slayers than any other gametype?

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2 hours ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Easy. CTF is the best gametype. Dont really need more than that. Where's the uproar about having 5x more slayers than any other gametype?

Big ups, on the real. Of all the things being added, CTF shouldn’t be complained about lol.

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2 hours ago, My Namez BEAST said:

Easy. CTF is the best gametype. Dont really need more than that. Where's the uproar about having 5x more slayers than any other gametype?

 

1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Big ups, on the real. Of all the things being added, CTF shouldn’t be complained about lol.

Trust me I'd love to get Slayer the fuck off the circuit but we all know they're not going to do that. They're either removing KOTH or Assault slots or worse removing a good CTF map to shoehorn in a "H3 fan favorite". Either way the settings will be worse for it.

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7 minutes ago, Basu said:

 

Trust me I'd love to get Slayer the fuck off the circuit but we all know they're not going to do that. They're either removing KOTH or Assault slots or worse removing a good CTF map to shoehorn in a "H3 fan favorite". Either way the settings will be worse for it.

iirc I heard they weren't taking out anything except creek and penance. And they're open to adding more than 2 

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Is Powerhouse Koth not a good pick? I don’t know anything about how it would play but seems like it could be fun if set up right.

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19 minutes ago, logan said:

Is Powerhouse Koth not a good pick? I don’t know anything about how it would play but seems like it could be fun if set up right.

If it was a good pick...would it not be in the rotation?

And if you dont know anything about how it would play...how can it simultaneously, "be fun if set up right"?

 

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23 minutes ago, logan said:

Is Powerhouse Koth not a good pick? I don’t know anything about how it would play but seems like it could be fun if set up right.

It has been considered many times and people always say how great it is, but I've never actually seem gameplay on it. It's hard to say, as default Reach is fucking cancer so we can't draw any conclusions from non-HC gameplay.

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People say Powerhouse Koth is good, but no one plays it because they want to test Midship v29 again.

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Powerhouse is a good asym like the reach DMR is a good utility weapon.  I’m not advocating for more Midship clones but I don’t think powerhouse is the prime example of a good arena asym.  What was the last good arena asym, Chilly, Turf?

Redeption had some nice asyms in h4 iirc.

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41 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

It's around.

👀

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2 hours ago, Boyo said:

Powerhouse is a good asym like the reach DMR is a good utility weapon.  I’m not advocating for more Midship clones but I don’t think powerhouse is the prime example of a good arena asym.  What was the last good arena asym, Chilly, Turf?

Redeption had some nice asyms in h4 iirc.

Turf is no bueno 

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5 hours ago, Squatting Bear said:

If it was a good pick...would it not be in the rotation?

And if you dont know anything about how it would play...how can it simultaneously, "be fun if set up right"?

 

Yea idk man just tossing it out there. I’ve always had fun on that map so I figured there could be some potential. 

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2 hours ago, Boyo said:

Why?

I like Turf but the corridors are too tight for anything other than nade spam and shotguns.

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13 hours ago, Basu said:

Trust me I'd love to get Slayer the fuck off the circuit but we all know they're not going to do that. They're either removing KOTH or Assault slots or worse removing a good CTF map to shoehorn in a "H3 fan favorite". Either way the settings will be worse for it.

Why remove TDM? We have not even tested proper maps for it yet and BC and Penance had a bad item layout with nobody attempting to test different layouts than the 2012 Killa KC ones. Guess it's easier to just start a shitstorm on twitter. But we also wouldn't know because apparently the community testing is done somewhere else with some people that placed 3rd a couple of times in Halo 3.

That said Halo is the only game with TDM where the "competitive" players think asyms are broken, maybe because there has been a lack of good asym maps ever since CE and spawning the player with the strongest weapon naturally has people crying out about any form of control one can get on a map...
Or I guess also because it's a goofy console game for casuals and the entire competitive scene is more or less a meme compared to any proper esport which makes sense given that the devs gave zero fucks about esports until H5 where they did just throw some money on tournaments rather than refining gameplay for competition.

Modding PC Reach is fun but probably should have stayed out of this entire discussion, the scene really is 95% casuals that buy/play anything that has "Halo" printed onto it and 5% MLG kids that think CTF on Midship and the Pit has good competitive value.

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7 hours ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Why remove TDM? We have not even tested proper maps for it yet and BC and Penance had a bad item layout with nobody attempting to test different layouts than the 2012 Killa KC ones. Guess it's easier to just start a shitstorm on twitter. But we also wouldn't know because apparently the community testing is done somewhere else with some people that placed 3rd a couple of times in Halo 3.

That said Halo is the only game with TDM where the "competitive" players think asyms are broken, maybe because there has been a lack of good asym maps ever since CE and spawning the player with the strongest weapon naturally has people crying out about any form of control one can get on a map...
Or I guess also because it's a goofy console game for casuals and the entire competitive scene is more or less a meme compared to any proper esport which makes sense given that the devs gave zero fucks about esports until H5 where they did just throw some money on tournaments rather than refining gameplay for competition.

Modding PC Reach is fun but probably should have stayed out of this entire discussion, the scene really is 95% casuals that buy/play anything that has "Halo" printed onto it and 5% MLG kids that think CTF on Midship and the Pit has good competitive value.

Talking about MLG/HCS settings obviously. They are dead set on using slow timers and 5sk starting weapons. We had full forge in H2A and we still played TS on default Lockout. We will never have good TS as long as we're using 3 minute rockets and 2 minute powerups.

Also this has been the case for 15 or so years now. Slayer has never been good outside of CE. And as you said the community hates anything thats asymmetrical so the only maps that "work" for slayer is something super small that forces action, which is either 2base2tower or a warlock remix. 

TS isn't fundamentally bad, but it definitely is in the context of slow killtimes, bad weapon layouts and slow timers. Unfortunately I don't see these issues ever going away so we might as well shift to better gametypes or at least not make slayer the main gametype. 

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spawning the player with the strongest weapon naturally has people crying out about any form of control one can get on a map...

Interesting that you bring this here. I know you come from a Arena FPS background (and hate the fact CE and GPMA have strong startingutilities) but this statement just isn't true when looking at the majority of the Halo games. The H3/Reach/4/5 utility get completely destroyed by any sort of map pickup (in competitive settings, not talking Needlers here). Maybe the H2 BR could be considered the strongest weapon because of the instakill glitches, but I wouldn't even go that far. The utlity has been garbage compared to the rest of the sandbox for many years, especially the H3 BR and the H5 Magnum for most of H5's lifespan until the rifles and autos got nerfed/removed.

All in all, Halo has never had a problem with a utility that is too strong outside of (ironically) 343's attempts at recreating the CE gameplay in H5 and CEA, in both cases giving us a way too forgiving 3sk hitscan pistol instead of the real thing. MCC CE is also mostly pistol because of things like broken shotgun and broken plasma stun, but that game is such a mess that it doesn't even count.

 

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I mean, there's a reason that no other major esport uses Slayer/TDM:  it's bland to watch, play, and isn't nearly as competitive as other modes. That being said, without any sort of single life mode it gives a sort of stability in knowing that every game X is going to be the same mode instead of possibly being four different ones. 

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