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Classic Halo Esports and HCS Grassroots 2020 Discussion Thread

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2 hours ago, Noodle said:

In case anyone else was curious, these are the six gametypes that are being tested by the pros for a new tournament gametype pool:

  • Sanctuary Bomb
  • Zealot Bomb
  • Onslaught CTF
  • Simplex CTF
  • Simplex Slayer
  • Splash KotH

 

As far as I have gathered, there's no set goal on how many gametypes to add or remove but the potential gametypes for removal are Battle Canyon CTF, Battle Canyon Slayer, and Penance Slayer.

If they remove Battle Canyon King, they're fools. Especially if they're thinking about replacing it with fucking Onslaught. HARD pass on that bullshit again. I'd be okay with either bomb gametype, but I think I'd like to see Splash KotH the most out of these, just to see something different. And I'm fine with Simplex Slayer replacing Penance. I'd rather they just tweak the weapon layout on Battle Canyon than remove it.

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I can see why BC Slayer is getting cut as with MLG timers, movement and TTK the map will never be fixed. Plus red advantage is just a joke on that map. KOTH though? I just don't get it.

Replacing Penance TS with an MLG-kid friendly 2 base 2 tower map was inevitable. What the hell are they doing with Onslaught? We already have enough good CTF maps.

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Noodle, where did you find that info? There was some confusion and arguments last night about game types and long story short we got a 3 game scrim

 

The way this is being run isn’t very structured, like if you’re gonna let the players decide the game types at least write a blog or tweet something 

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1 hour ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Why the fuck would they want Onslaught?

Like you don't already know.

It's easy, it's nostalgic, and it's a two-base two-tower. It was regarded as one of the most heart-pounding maps in Halo 3. Pros are gonna be even more stoked about it because now they get to play it with an actual gun. Why did you even ask.

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Onslaught is a mediocre map at best.  Literally become stale & useless in 2009 once we added Heretic CTF in the rotation.  Adding it into Reach would be a disaster.  So many better competitive forge maps that have already been proven to work in NBNS Reach.

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New video is up!  Had a crazy month or so with family stuff and school but I should be back to normal here now.  Anyway, enjoy!

 

 

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1 hour ago, S0UL FLAME said:

Like you don't already know.

It's easy, it's nostalgic, and it's a two-base two-tower. It was regarded as one of the most heart-pounding maps in Halo 3. Pros are gonna be even more stoked about it because now they get to play it with an actual gun. Why did you even ask.

That's certainly an opinion...that exists.

But yes, it was a half-rhetorical question. What other eSports game defines its competitive settings solely based on the opinion of pros? Because I can't think of one. Typically the community decides what it likes to play and the pros figure out if it's broken as shit.

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It’s such a simple map, and we have 4 years of active tournaments with it already (and 12 years of total playtime). To say it’s stale is a massive understatement. We can do so much better than that. It just feels like a copout.

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4 hours ago, Exidrion said:

Noodle, where did you find that info? There was some confusion and arguments last night about game types and long story short we got a 3 game scrim

 

The way this is being run isn’t very structured, like if you’re gonna let the players decide the game types at least write a blog or tweet something 

From pros who were streaming games on those maps. Asked Saiyin about it in his chat to confirm the list was correct.

Not sure if I made it clear that I'm especially not sure if BC KotH, BC Slayer, and Penance TS were explicitly being discussed as ones to be replaced, it's just something that I heard once on one of the streams. Pretty sure I didn't mishear or misconstrue anything, but there's a chance I did.

I'm fairly certain about the six gametypes being tested though, I saw most of those (although not all) played during a couple of scrims and explicitly asked Saiyin about those (apparently he was the one who was in charge of sending Tashi feedback on for the Sunday deadline they had if they wanted to get new gametypes added to matchmaking).

I haven't really heard any feedback regarding what the pros think about those six gametypes, I only remember them disliking one of the maps that didn't make the short list (I think it was Oasis that was considered bad due to open sight lines not playing well with ZBNS settings).

Overall, it's a little disappointing that the only way to get info is to hope pros are streaming and ask them about it and hope they're in the know as well, but I won't really complain about it since we couldn't organize as a Beyond community to do v8 testing ourselves. At least it's being looked at and we're not just running v7 Penance without any consideration of changes from 343 or the TOs.

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On 1/17/2020 at 4:31 PM, Rumpojec said:

Looks like Neptune is eyeing the jump.
 

 

Lasted long

 

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Figures that neptune would go to cod. Gotta think about the money people. Halo isn’t where it’s at, and unlike halo cod has an actual league. This means they’re doing daily/weekly lans and online matches against one another(like the NFL). Halo isn’t that fortunate(probably not until halo infinite). Halo does a tournament like once every 2-3 months. 

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22 hours ago, Hard Way said:

just to see something different. 

5 hours ago, Hard Way said:

It’s such a simple map, and we have 4 years of active tournaments with it already (and 12 years of total playtime). To say it’s stale is a massive understatement. We can do so much better than that. It just feels like a copout.

Hard reminder to everybody that wanting variety means fuck all in a comp rotation, should not be used as an argument against or for map's exclusion/inclusion, and we should aim for consistency and competitive map sets. Not variety.

 

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Yes, we should have all the maps play similarly because of consistency mattering on different maps. Actually a garbage take. Make the maps good, don't make them the same 

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31 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Hard reminder to everybody that wanting variety means fuck all in a comp rotation, should not be used as an argument against or for map's exclusion/inclusion, and we should aim for consistency and competitive map sets. Not variety.

 

Agreed.  Look at CSGO.  They've had a fuck ton of the same comp maps from 1.6 and that shit's been going on for DECADES.  Yes, stuff gets stale after a while, but it keeps competitive integrity at the forefront. 

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Variety is important because it tests players in different situations. Would love to see Penance replaced with a room-based asym that better fits Reach's gameplay, but we all know there's no chance of that happening. I guess it's not too big of a concern for a game that won't be around for more than a year.

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7 minutes ago, Trespa5s said:

Agreed.  Look at CSGO.  They've had a fuck ton of the same comp maps from 1.6 and that shit's been going on for DECADES.  Yes, stuff gets stale after a while, but it keeps competitive integrity at the forefront. 

CS:GO also has maps that aren't the same style of map. CS:GO is also more complex. CE has been using the same maps for 19ish years at this point and they don't get state. Midship and it's clones gets stale after the fourth or fifth game.

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Just now, OG Nick said:

Yes, we should have all the maps play similarly because of consistency mattering on different maps. Actually a garbage take. Make the maps good, don't make them the same 

Nice strawman. No one said make them the same. I just said variety is a stupid argument in competitive. Where variety doesn't matter. Viability does. 

3 minutes ago, Trespa5s said:

Agreed.  Look at CSGO.  They've had a fuck ton of the same comp maps from 1.6 and that shit's been going on for DECADES.  Yes, stuff gets stale after a while, but it keeps competitive integrity at the forefront. 

Yep. And that's what matters. If variety matters to you, go play social where maps not in the comp rotation come up. BUT, do not compromise competitive integrity because you get bored. That's not a "problem" with comp that needs to be fixed, that's your attention span. 

3 minutes ago, ShmaltzyLatkes said:

Variety is important because it tests players in different situations. Would love to see Penance replaced with a room-based asym that better fits Reach's gameplay, but we all know there's no chance of that happening. I guess it's not too big of a concern for a game that won't be around for more than a year.

If your point is "make different, good maps", then okay, but asymms are historically not that. Think on assym history. Guardian, Lockout, The Rig, etc. None of them are very good maps for comp, and if anything, have insanely glaring issues, with spawns, setups, some, if not most of the time, both. Let's not risk assym maps, and just make good sym maps. Easier to do.

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44 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Hard reminder to everybody that wanting variety means fuck all in a comp rotation, should not be used as an argument against or for map's exclusion/inclusion, and we should aim for consistency and competitive map sets. Not variety.

 

 

1 minute ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Nice strawman. No one said make them the same. I just said variety is a stupid argument in competitive. Where variety doesn't matter. Viability does. 

Since we're arguing about putting in a map that is built in a very similar manner to dozens of other maps, we kind of are. Two base, two tower maps are over done and bring nothing new/add to the competitive scene at all. They've been solved for decades. Once again, midship v37 may be a a decent map but it plays the same over and over. Test something else that could be better. But I tend to forget that "asym bad" so we need to make clones of the same maps again even if the asyms provide a better experience for certain gamemodes. 

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6 minutes ago, OG Nick said:

CS:GO also has maps that aren't the same style of map. CS:GO is also more complex. CE has been using the same maps for 19ish years at this point and they don't get state. Midship and it's clones gets stale after the fourth or fifth game.

That's a problem with the maps themselves then, rather than a lack of variety.  

Hell, a good way to do it would just be to re-skin them every 6 months or once a year.  Have a preset for all the forgers, and let them go nuts.  Curate out the top 3 designs for each map and then have a vote and bam.  Easy way to refresh things without risking ruining things. 

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2 minutes ago, Trespa5s said:

That's a problem with the maps themselves then, rather than a lack of variety.  

Hell, a good way to do it would just be to re-skin them every 6 months or once a year.  Have a preset for all the forgers, and let them go nuts.  Curate out the top 3 designs for each map and then have a vote and bam.  Easy way to refresh things without risking ruining things. 

That really isn't the issue. Halo 2 base 2 tower maps all play very similarly, with some variation to try to make them different. Even if they look different they play the same. Playing the same is the issue. Halo can't really expect to have maps like CS:GO maps because simply put, CS:GO has more depth on a PvP level, strategy level, economy system, etc. Maps haven't been solved entirely in CS:GO. While there are key things players are supposed to do on maps (I'll take a moment to say I don't play CS:GO only watch) teams have their own ways of doing things. That's how things are kept fresh on those maps. Midship, Truth, Coliseum, Simplex, Onslaught, etc. have played very similarly since H2, and that's what gets stale. While I don't think we need to cut out a 2 base 2 tower map, I think that people have such a fixation on them for no other reason than "It's like midship" which causes other maps to be ignored. And those maps cut out for the Midship clones could very well be better than Midship. 

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Just now, OG Nick said:

Since we're arguing about putting in a map that is built in a very similar manner to dozens of other maps, we kind of are. Two base, two tower maps are over done and bring nothing new/add to the competitive scene at all. They've been solved for decades. Once again, midship v37 may be a a decent map but it plays the same over and over. Test something else that could be better. But I tend to forget that "asym bad" so we need to make clones of the same maps again even if the asyms provide a better experience for certain gamemodes. 

No Halo map remains unsolved. It's all about execution. Because people understand them within a week. Sym or assym, but that's irrelevant to this.

But, again, I'm not saying make clones. I'm saying, make proper maps, or if you need to, shrink your map pool. If the game needs to be one map, or two, or just three, and those are truly the pinnacle for comp settings, do that. We don't NEED a fuckton of maps in the rotation. We only need good ones. 

You also misunderstand my use of consistency. It isn't about maps themselves being consistent in design. Truth, Coli, Fathom, and Sanc are all two base maps. They're not consistent in design in any way but sharing two bases. The entire middle of every map differs. Pathing differs. NONE of them are played the same, or anywhere NEAR the same. And that's what matters. What I mean when I say "consistency" is stopping inconsistent map design. Assym's spawns at a base can be classified as this. Inconsistent spawns by objective, etc. Anything like this. Just having good, tried and true maps, again, reiterating. Again, just think about Lockout and how poorly it can play for a losing team by its design compared to a map like Truth, or Heretic. 

TL;DR: Only put the best in.

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