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Classic Halo Esports and HCS Grassroots 2020 Discussion Thread

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2 hours ago, Obnokshus said:

fucking Eldewrito got kbm/controller duality right and 343 cant lmao

difference is controller on it feels worse than M&K, how Halo PC should feel

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2 hours ago, Humpflung said:

 They should be completely useless

Now you've just made your view irrelevant.

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48 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

Now you've just made your view irrelevant.

Nope. Controller on CS is useless, controller on Halo PC should be on par

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3 hours ago, Humpflung said:

Nope. Controller on CS is useless, controller on Halo PC should be on par

My apologies, I thought you were saying controller shouldn't exist on Halo PC.

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Am really hoping they get these M/KB and controller issues sorted out and balanced tbh, I really want halo E-Sports to make a come back but that really can't happen until these issues are fixed and balanced. That being said, Who do we have to bug to get a hub on Face It? like for all things competitive Halo involving random 4s, ffas, team matches/scrims, ladders, and tourneys. I think now is a really good time for Halo E-Sports to make a come back, most Colleges in NA have E-Sports teams now and if we got some sort of league for colleges to compete in that could be a big step in the right direction for the competitive Halo scene.

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11 minutes ago, aa_Pregnant_Nun said:

Am really hoping they get these M/KB and controller issues sorted out and balanced tbh, I really want halo E-Sports to make a come back but that really can't happen until these issues are fixed and balanced. That being said, Who do we have to bug to get a hub on Face It? like for all things competitive Halo involving random 4s, ffas, team matches/scrims, ladders, and tourneys. I think now is a really good time for Halo E-Sports to make a come back, most Colleges in NA have E-Sports teams now and if we got some sort of league for colleges to compete in that could be a big step in the right direction for the competitive Halo scene.

It wont happen if pros on M&K cant beat pros on controller. 

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6 hours ago, Shekkles said:

My apologies, I thought you were saying controller shouldn't exist on Halo PC.

Yes I would prefer no controllers on PC. 

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1 hour ago, Hard Way said:

I haven't played MCC on PC. Are the aim assist values for controller users greater on PC than on console?

No they're the same aka way too fucking strong lol. With that said, people love to complain. They play one match with mouse then they instantly complain about controllers when they lose.

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4 hours ago, Hard Way said:

I haven't played MCC on PC. Are the aim assist values for controller users greater on PC than on console?

Its a weird situation where all new PC Halo players, regardless of aim skill, probably hop into the hardcore playlist since bullets actually fly mostly straight there and run into people who have been playing Halo for the majority of their lives and get stomped. I don't even know how you mostly control for skill and knowledge to try and compare the input devices in this particular environment. This shit on MCC doesn't even really work that well when we all use a controller as far as skill matching. I do not envy 343 right now because it feels like a slightly impossible situation without just throwing a bunch of PC players into the fire and hoping they stick around long enough to understand the game and then see what the actual gap is like with the current mechanics. I think the perfect solution is probably allowing them an input toggle to only play against other people with the same input device so that they actually have a place to learn. It comes with the added benefit of not offending the now existent controller based PC Halo player along with staying true to the original games and leaving the door for cross play open. Its really the only route I can come up with that gives everyone what they would want without stepping on some other section of the player base's toes

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3 hours ago, Snipe Three said:

Its a weird situation where all new PC Halo players, regardless of aim skill, probably hop into the hardcore playlist since bullets actually fly mostly straight there and run into people who have been playing Halo for the majority of their lives and get stomped. I don't even know how you mostly control for skill and knowledge to try and compare the input devices in this particular environment. This shit on MCC doesn't even really work that well when we all use a controller as far as skill matching. I do not envy 343 right now because it feels like a slightly impossible situation without just throwing a bunch of PC players into the fire and hoping they stick around long enough to understand the game and then see what the actual gap is like with the current mechanics. I think the perfect solution is probably allowing them an input toggle to only play against other people with the same input device so that they actually have a place to learn. It comes with the added benefit of not offending the now existent controller based PC Halo player along with staying true to the original games and leaving the door for cross play open. Its really the only route I can come up with that gives everyone what they would want without stepping on some other section of the player base's toes

Who cares about the controller PC Halo players? lol This is the one and only time in Halo history where adapt is appropriate 

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4 hours ago, arglactable said:

Set all bullet magnetism values to zero on PC and then see how many controller veterans remain competitive with thumb aim.

Lett's just take absolutist positions on everything!

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56 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

Lett's just take absolutist positions on everything!

Why should players be rewarded for being off target, especially in the context of a "competitive" environment that's supposed to be highly skill-based?

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On 12/15/2019 at 5:37 AM, Mythik Nick said:

Why should players be rewarded for being off target, especially in the context of a "competitive" environment that's supposed to be highly skill-based?

KB/M gets the same aim assist. That's why people who have never played shooters with a mouse in their lives are saying it's easier to snipe on it vs controller.

Magnetism is different, and should probably be nerfed, but to a point where it's balanced based off actual data not nerfed into the ground so our entire competitive community gets wiped out overnight.

The data is gonna be skewed in favor of over-nerfing since you have controller players who have years of exp on Reach and several times that playing other Halo games, but a huge chunk of players still are all for that.

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My issue with the idea of ditching controllers entirely on PC is how, at the moment, the PC version of MCC is the far superior one by pure virtue of giving the player some choice in their visuals. Like, I can't center the reticule on xbox, or up my FOV settings. Or have access to an FPS counter so I can see directly how well the game is performing. That, and mods of course.

And I know this is just super specific to me, but I broke my right arm growing up, and as a result, I find it extremely uncomfortable to play with a mouse for any extended period of time.

That being said, I don't think you CAN'T have an environment where controller and KB+M are both being used. My friend and I perform about as well as each other in both MCC and Destiny 2, and he's always using a mouse while I'm obviously on controller. And this doesn't really change if he happens to be using a controller either.

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7 hours ago, Shekkles said:

Lett's just take absolutist positions on everything!

This is a simple issue. It doesn't require faux nuance or fence-sitting. Optimizing the game for skill (or really just being roughly on par with other PC games) and accommodating controller players at high levels are mutually exclusive propositions.

Console veterans' egos will take a hit, yes, once they realize that the game was doing most of the work and their aim mechanics peaked after a week at best of taking the game seriously. And a bunch of players who are propped up by how easy the game is—for example, certain players who did nothing at all in Halo 5, but suddenly competed in Halo Team Shot Edition grand finals—will no longer be taking up space in tournaments.

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15 minutes ago, arglactable said:

This is a simple issue. It doesn't require faux nuance or fence-sitting. Optimizing the game for skill (or really just being roughly on par with other PC games) and accommodating controller players at high levels are mutually exclusive propositions.

Console veterans' egos will take a hit, yes, once they realize that the game was doing most of the work and their aim mechanics peaked after a week at best of taking the game seriously. And a bunch of players who are propped up by how easy the game is—for example, certain players who did nothing at all in Halo 5, but suddenly competed in Halo Team Shot Edition grand finals—will no longer be taking up space in tournaments.

I still find it fucking hilarious that years of MOUSE IS SUPERIOR now is being thrown out the window cause Halo...

 

Not to mention the aiming is still fucked on mouse but ppl are so quick to just REMOVE controller. Mouse will dominate soon. Mouse has NO handicap. Controller has all the handicap. The controller needs aim assist and bullet mag to even function. 

 

Mouse doesn't need aim assist but HAS bullet mag, if the mouse was fixed properly it would be an even playing field and probably advantageous to mouse as usual in the end. AS WITH ALL FPS GAMES

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30 minutes ago, znot said:

I still find it fucking hilarious that years of MOUSE IS SUPERIOR now is being thrown out the window cause Halo...

A significant percentage of PC players have no idea what the difference is because they haven't wasted time playing with a controller. Controller players tend to have the opposite problem and wildly over-estimate how much mechanical skill is required to aim in most console games. The mouse is an objectively superior input device in terms of precision. When you add aim assists to accommodate how terrible analog sticks are for aiming, the advantages become less clear. In this game, controller players have an advantage in mid range precision fights, because it is so fucking EASY. That is a fact.

30 minutes ago, znot said:

Not to mention the aiming is still fucked on mouse but ppl are so quick to just REMOVE controller. Mouse will dominate soon. Mouse has NO handicap. Controller has all the handicap. The controller needs aim assist and bullet mag to even function. 

The controller does not have a meaningful handicap when the baseline aim tolerance is huge PLUS the game constantly corrects your reticle movement for you. That is the problem. In order for controller players to remain competitive, the game needs to aim for them and the aim precision requirements have to be a joke. Accommodating controllers in this way puts a hard cap on mouse aim skill WELL below what good PC players could handle. Otherwise, real PC players would wipe the floor with controller pros and their "years of experience" in gun fights. I have yet to hear a real argument for why this is a positive thing for the game. As it is, the mouse advantage in this game is only clear for the sniper and outside of red reticle range, because those are the scenarios in which the aim assist is not a major factor.

30 minutes ago, znot said:

Mouse doesn't need aim assist but HAS bullet mag, if the mouse was fixed properly it would be an even playing field and probably advantageous to mouse as usual in the end. AS WITH ALL FPS GAMES

I want bullet magnetism gone IN GENERAL, because it compresses any real skill gap inherently. This would mean that aiming with a mouse is much harder than it is now (which is piss easy). The input lag is basically irrelevant, because your shots connect in the massive radius indicated on screen by the reticle, unlike any other PC FPS. You don't have to be precise. The reason mouse aim is at a disadvantage is not because it's hard to aim in this game, it's because it's hard to MISS if you are even remotely competent with a controller. There is absolutely no room for skilled PC players to set themselves apart.

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1 hour ago, arglactable said:

A significant percentage of PC players have no idea what the difference is because they haven't wasted time playing with a controller. Controller players tend to have the opposite problem and wildly over-estimate how much mechanical skill is required to aim in most console games. The mouse is an objectively superior input device in terms of precision. When you add aim assists to accommodate how terrible analog sticks are for aiming, the advantages become less clear. In this game, controller players have an advantage in mid range precision fights, because it is so fucking EASY. That is a fact.

The controller does not have a meaningful handicap when the baseline aim tolerance is huge PLUS the game constantly corrects your reticle movement for you. That is the problem. In order for controller players to remain competitive, the game needs to aim for them and the aim precision requirements have to be a joke. Accommodating controllers in this way puts a hard cap on mouse aim skill WELL below what good PC players could handle. Otherwise, real PC players would wipe the floor with controller pros and their "years of experience" in gun fights. I have yet to hear a real argument for why this is a positive thing for the game. As it is, the mouse advantage in this game is only clear for the sniper and outside of red reticle range, because those are the scenarios in which the aim assist is not a major factor.

I want bullet magnetism gone IN GENERAL, because it compresses any real skill gap inherently. This would mean that aiming with a mouse is much harder than it is now (which is piss easy). The input lag is basically irrelevant, because your shots connect in the massive radius indicated on screen by the reticle, unlike any other PC FPS. You don't have to be precise. The reason mouse aim is at a disadvantage is not because it's hard to aim in this game, it's because it's hard to MISS if you are even remotely competent with a controller. There is absolutely no room for skilled PC players to set themselves apart.

I get it, but how many of these people are just 1) bad 2) handicapped from the current mouse aiming 3) just not used to the new aiming that reach requires from mouse? it's only been out about 2 weeks.

 

 

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9 hours ago, bunniesz23 said:

KB/M gets the same aim assist. That's why people who have never played shooters with a mouse in their lives are saying it's easier to snipe on it vs controller.

Magnetism is different, and should probably be nerfed, but to a point where it's balanced based off actual data not nerfed into the ground so our entire competitive community gets wiped out overnight.

The data is gonna be skewed in favor of over-nerfing since you have controller players who have years of exp on Reach and several times that playing other Halo games, but I huge chunk of players still are all for that.

KB/M has the same bullet magnetism as controllers, not any other aim assist mechanics. I was only talking about bullet magnetism because shekkles was replying to arg's post about how removing it would reveal just how awful controller players are when they actually have to HIT their shots.

LOL you don't need to gather any more "data" beyond the knowledge of what bullet magnetism actually is. It's a mechanic that lets players get away with missing in a FPS. If removing a mechanic that lets players get hits when they miss kills the competitive community, then how serious is that competitive community?

Yeah, I'm sure part of the reason controller players tend to be doing better is game knowledge. That doesn't change the fact that the existence of bullet magnetism in a PC game is a joke.

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The best players in the world miss with AA even though its "OP". It's just fact you can miss with AA. When you are playing against players at your level or above.. you will be challenged regardless of your input. 

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Sitting here reading a bunch of morons yell at each other over a controller.

AA and magnetism are way too forgiving in this game with controllers atm, and MKB implementation is still not perfect and probably never will be. If you are using a mouse and keyboard right now, you basically are an idiot. Controller is way easier up close and all you need to learn how to do is range if you aren't used to it. If you don't think controller aiming in this game up close is stupidly easy then you are lying to yourself. 

AA needs to be turned down like 15% and none of this is an issue.

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26 minutes ago, Zavehi said:

Sitting here reading a bunch of morons yell at each other over a controller.

AA and magnetism are way too forgiving in this game with controllers atm, and MKB implementation is still not perfect and probably never will be. If you are using a mouse and keyboard right now, you basically are an idiot. Controller is way easier up close and all you need to learn how to do is range if you aren't used to it. If you don't think controller aiming in this game up close is stupidly easy then you are lying to yourself. 

AA needs to be turned down like 15% and none of this is an issue.

It's more than just AA though, Reach was designed with sprint and armor abilities in mind. Bungie was under the assumption people would be sprinting, zipping and zooda around the map with stuff like evade and jetpack etc.

So the weapons and hitboxes reflect that. When I shoot you in the shoulder/midback with the sniper and get a headshot, it's because bungie is trying to find balance because hitting a sprinting spartan is harder than hitting a normal base speed running spartan. As a result of faster moving spartans the ROCKETS have a bigger splash damage radius because people COULD with sprint theoretically get out of the blast zone easier. So they have to adjust the weapon sandbox and hitbox around that.

 

 

Meaning you get super easy shots that are only found in Reach. I won't lie, H2 is easy with snipe too, but the hitbox is more consistant on h2. I don't get headshots for shooting you in the ass or mid back like Reach gives me (even with mouse) the input doesn't matter. Reach is super forgiving.

 

I know you're mostly talking about DMR battles, but think about strongsiding in Reach compared to any other Halo. It's a joke. You'll pretty much get headshotted every time. Even though your head is down, I just have to shoot where your head was and Reach gives me the kill 4/5 times.

 

 

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