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Classic Halo Esports and HCS Grassroots 2020 Discussion Thread

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All in all though, if nothing else I'm curious as to whether or not this first 5 year break for the series amount to anything beneficial . I feel like the last few games I've had a rough idea as to the general direction, but this time I feel a teensy bit of hope, even with sprints inclusion. As far as the HCS direction I'm less impressed though. That blog post was a whole of words and nothing substantial.

 

If 343 fails after this 5 year break, we're done though.

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1 minute ago, Exidrion said:

All in all though, if nothing else I'm curious as to whether or not this first 5 year break for the series amount to anything beneficial . I feel like the last few games I've had a rough idea as to the general direction, but this time I feel a teensy bit of hope, even with sprints inclusion. As far as the HCS direction I'm less impressed though. That blog post was a whole of words and nothing substantial.

 

If 343 fails after this 5 year break, we're done though.

Real talk - what could they possibly be working on for this long that would justify such a long break? What explosive new feature or crazy new addition to the general Halo experience could make the title rebranding worth it? I can't think of anything at all, certainly not coming off the fingertips of this developer.

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What's so sad about H5 is that it had a stupid amount of potential and the major issues players had could have been dealt with by tweaking a couple of settings in the fucking lobby menu without any engine changes.

1)  Sprint/Movement:  Even H3 had to have it's movement tweaked for competitive, and removing sprint/increasing speed and acceleration would have made a lot of people happy.  

2)  Radar:  I actually don't mind the "fixed" radar too much, but I think it's pretty unanimous that removing radar would have been best. 

3)  GP/SC:  Eventually got removed, but took way too long to do so.

4)  Auto starts:  Same as #3 but even more unacceptable.  No reason we should have see TWO World Championships with AR starts. 

 

So that leaves Maps, Blanks, and Hitmarkers.

1)  Maps:  they did eventually add more to the competitive pool so I'm hopeful that if we get Forge at launch and they continue with that trend that we see the map pool expand and become better earlier into the cycle

2)  Hitmarkers:  Afaic, hitmarkers are only an issue for nades due to the ability to fire rando-nades around to try to find people.  I don't think there's really any issue with the guns showing hitmarkers.

3)  Blanks:  Nothing to say here other than they need to be ironed out. 

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17 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Real talk - what could they possibly be working on for this long that would justify such a long break? What explosive new feature or crazy new addition to the general Halo experience could make the title rebranding worth it? I can't think of anything at all, certainly not coming off the fingertips of this developer.

Maybe, just maybe, they scrapped an initial idea that had full sprint, jetpacks and wall running and decided to start from the ground up due to terrible focus group testing. :lxthul: 

Or maybe it's because of the new engine? Not entirely sure how much work that entails but I can't see it being a 5 year thing either. 

 

It is strange, I'll give you that.

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15 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Real talk - what could they possibly be working on for this long that would justify such a long break? What explosive new feature or crazy new addition to the general Halo experience could make the title rebranding worth it? I can't think of anything at all, certainly not coming off the fingertips of this developer.

Hopefully a solid engine.  Great netcode and hit registration.  Proper aim assist levels.  Proper strafe.  Good maps.  Nail the basics for once.  Then iterate on a sound foundation.  

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7 minutes ago, Trespa5s said:

What's so sad about H5 is that it had a stupid amount of potential and the major issues players had could have been dealt with by tweaking a couple of settings in the fucking lobby menu without an engine changes.

1)  Sprint/Movement:  Even H3 had to have it's movement tweaked for competitive, and removing sprint/increasing speed and acceleration would have made a lot of people happy.  

2)  Radar:  I actually don't mind the "fixed" radar too much, but I think it's pretty unanimous that removing radar would have been best. 

3)  GP/SC:  Eventually got removed, but took way too long to do so.

4)  Auto starts:  Same as #3 but even more unacceptable.  No reason we should have see TWO World Championships with AR starts. 

 

So that leaves Maps, Blanks, and Hitmarkers.

1)  Maps:  they did eventually add more to the competitive pool so I'm hopeful that if we get Forge at launch and they continue with that trend that we see the map pool expand and become better earlier into the cycle

2)  Hitmarkers:  Afaic, hitmarkers are only an issue for nades due to the ability to fire rando-nades around to try to find people.  I don't think there's really any issue with the guns showing hitmarkers.

3)  Blanks:  Nothing to say here other than they need to be ironed out. 

Full radar removal definitely wasn't unanimous among the pros.

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Just now, Exidrion said:

Or maybe it's because of the new engine? 

They've pretty much confirmed it's because of the new engine.  They said it was "So ambitious they needed to build a new engine to fully reach what they wanted to do with it" (Paraphrasing but the part about it being really ambitious was a direct quote. 

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1 minute ago, Exidrion said:

Full radar removal definitely wasn't unanimous among the pros.

Well at that point it's a no-win situation.  You can't please both because it's dichotomous. 

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People are banking hard on the new engine (don't really mean people on this forum), but I don't think they realize that a new engine doesn't really say anything about the game as a product in a meaningful, end-user context. A new engine would be 90% for the developers' convenience and 10% for the players' experience. The fuckups in the Halo series aren't a result of the engine, because we know what it looks like when it's not fucked up, e.g. the aiming debacle in H5 from beta to release, and the last things that people have complained about in the Halo franchise are things like collision detection. I guess if you were super hard on Halo's A.I. then maybe you might have a reason to be excited, but in the multiplayer? Heh.

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1 hour ago, Cursed Lemon said:

I do remember that being literally the only time a Halo dev has ever attempted discourse at length on this forum or with this specific community, so I guess a tiny amount of credit there to Josh, but it's pretty well neutralized for not having the contextual wherewithal to realize you shouldn't tell a community of competitive Halo players that you're stylizing the gameplay according to lore and trend-chasing instead of what's best for the game.

He definitely should have told us. Im glad he did. He just shouldnt have actually balanced the game like that. He also should have realized that telling us would have gotten us riled up and be prepared for the responses. 

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29 minutes ago, Exidrion said:

Full radar removal definitely wasn't unanimous among the pros.

Pros are only going to support what gives them the edge. Its been like that since halo 3. You 100% cant just listen to pros and they will never all be in agreement.  There were pros that didnt support the removal of bloom in reach. There were pros that didnt want sprint removed in r/4/5. 

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43 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Real talk - what could they possibly be working on for this long that would justify such a long break? What explosive new feature or crazy new addition to the general Halo experience could make the title rebranding worth it? I can't think of anything at all, certainly not coming off the fingertips of this developer.

i know its supposedly engine related, but honestly it feels like they took a hard look at the playerbase trends since reach and blew up everything they had. i forget who it was that said that the next game would be built upon the foundation of halo 5, but that cant be the case anymore. i'm also betting that microsoft stepped in and is pushing developmentor it least keeping a close eye on it since this is gonna be a launch title for the next xbox. they cannot have another h4/5 flop or mcc shitshow. if the game fails, then the console will be off to a shit start and no way does ms want a repeat of the xbone launch disaster

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22 minutes ago, Trespa5s said:

What's so sad about H5 is that it had a stupid amount of potential and the major issues players had could have been dealt with by tweaking a couple of settings in the fucking lobby menu without any engine changes.

1)  Sprint/Movement:  Even H3 had to have it's movement tweaked for competitive, and removing sprint/increasing speed and acceleration would have made a lot of people happy.   

2)  Radar:  I actually don't mind the "fixed" radar too much, but I think it's pretty unanimous that removing radar would have been best. 

3)  GP/SC:  Eventually got removed, but took way too long to do so.

4)  Auto starts:  Same as #3 but even more unacceptable.  No reason we should have see TWO World Championships with AR starts.  

 

So that leaves Maps, Blanks, and Hitmarkers.

1)  Maps:  they did eventually add more to the competitive pool so I'm hopeful that if we get Forge at launch and they continue with that trend that we see the map pool expand and become better earlier into the cycle

2)  Hitmarkers:  Afaic, hitmarkers are only an issue for nades due to the ability to fire rando-nades around to try to find people.  I don't think there's really any issue with the guns showing hitmarkers.

3)  Blanks:  Nothing to say here other than they need to be ironed out. 

H5 had too many hard-coded issues that couldn't be fixed, even if there was modding. Shitmarkers, the awful aiming, way too much aim assist across the board etc. H3 could be kind of salvaged with MLG, Reach turned out great with v7/GoldPro and even H4 was somewhat playable (lol) with Promod but H5 is a lost cause. Mythic, Classic, Evolved all tried but ultimately don't feel right because of all the underlying issues.

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2 minutes ago, Craneteam said:

i know its supposedly engine related, but honestly it feels like they took a hard look at the playerbase trends since reach and blew up everything they had. i forget who it was that said that the next game would be built upon the foundation of halo 5, but that cant be the case anymore. i'm also betting that microsoft stepped in and is pushing developmentor it least keeping a close eye on it since this is gonna be a launch title for the next xbox. they cannot have another h4/5 flop or mcc shitshow. if the game fails, then the console will be off to a shit start and no way does ms want a repeat of the xbone launch disaster

But Crane, I was told very vehemently by /r/Halo that Halo 5 had the most successful launch* in franchise history and that its player retention was the highest since Halo 3.

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24 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

People are banking hard on the new engine (don't really mean people on this forum), but I don't think they realize that a new engine doesn't really say anything about the game as a product in a meaningful, end-user context. A new engine would be 90% for the developers' convenience and 10% for the players' experience. The fuckups in the Halo series aren't a result of the engine, because we know what it looks like when it's not fucked up, e.g. the aiming debacle in H5 from beta to release, and the last things that people have complained about in the Halo franchise are things like collision detection. I guess if you were super hard on Halo's A.I. then maybe you might have a reason to be excited, but in the multiplayer? Heh.

would the heavy aim be engine related or game related?

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2 minutes ago, Craneteam said:

would the heavy aim be engine related or game related?

Well, every Halo game up until now has used a slightly modified version of the same engine.

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58 minutes ago, Exidrion said:

Maybe, just maybe, they scrapped an initial idea that had full sprint, jetpacks and wall running and decided to start from the ground up due to terrible focus group testing. :lxthul: 

This does raise a good point that I had thought about before, if Infinite was just Halo 5.5 I imagine it would have came out in 2018, something makes me think that was the original plan but somewhere along the line they decided to scrap that idea for what ever reason, maybe Halo 5's poor player retention? All of this is just speculation ofc and we can only hope but I'm really starting to run out of hope for this franchise at this point. 

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22 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

Well, every Halo game up until now has used a slightly modified version of the same engine.

so basically they fucked up the game code bad enough but the engine its built on is functional as is?

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26 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

But Crane, I was told very vehemently by /r/Halo that Halo 5 had the most successful launch* in franchise history and that its player retention was the highest since Halo 3.

343 saying that with a straight face just showed me that they would rather get us to buy a lie and a reqpack vs actually building a good game. the more im reminded of their shit from just the past couple of years, the more my optimism for infinite evaporates

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35 minutes ago, Basu said:

H5 had too many hard-coded issues that couldn't be fixed, even if there was modding. Shitmarkers, the awful aiming, way too much aim assist across the board etc. H3 could be kind of salvaged with MLG, Reach turned out great with v7/GoldPro and even H4 was somewhat playable (lol) with Promod but H5 is a lost cause. Mythic, Classic, Evolved all tried but ultimately don't feel right because of all the underlying issues.

I'll give you that the aiming was just bad, but imo hitmarkers are only a problem for nades (and could have been fixed, albeit not as simply as altering a setting in the lobby).  AA was fine but the bullet magnetism could have been toned down a bit.  None of those "couldn't be fixed," and bullet magnetism is hardly game-breaking.  H5's issues were less about it's foundation and more about it's lackluster settings.

Blanks were really the only thing that I think they would have struggled to fix.  The rest is either a matter of them thinking they know better or not wanting to create too much of a discrepancy between the casual player base and the competitive side by have drastically different settings (and while that's misguided I can at least follow the logic). 

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6 minutes ago, Craneteam said:

so basically they fucked up the game code bad enough but the engine its built on is functional as is?

The engine just has far less to do with what you actually see as an end user than you think. It's what people do on top of the engine that makes up the bulk of the player's experience, unless you are super into ragdoll physics.

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On 11/7/2019 at 7:27 PM, Zavehi said:

If HCS does something at some point that resembles a coherent anything I will show up. Until then I'm kind of done with all this. Tashi continues to speak in these mass cliches about the future, tons of promises about what is coming and pumping up this HCS grassroots effort that has been pretty much a massive failure with only a few creators brought on board and a lot of meh or bad tournaments were it was clear neither 343 or the TO wanted to invest in a 12 year old game with no viewership. I've read the announcement from them yesterday what seems like 100 times. Same tired old stuff about everything they've learned over the years while they still constantly look like amateurs. The team over there seemingly hasn't learned that no one really cares about how many words they write about how good they are going to be in the future, they actually have to SHOW something that presents they have any idea what they are doing. They never did previously until they let MLG run the last worlds cycle. They haven't done it with the post-H5 MCC events at all.

 

I love Halo, I love the Halo community, I've traveled multiple times over the last few years to go tournaments and have met some awesome people. At this point, Halo esports has a terminal disease and I don't see some miracle coming any time soon.

If you're done then who am i gonna eat steak n shake with at events

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7 hours ago, Basu said:

Well the game will certainly look good because they actually listened to the complaints about the gross art style and sound direction. H4 also looked good during the initial reveal and I remember people going into slow-motion and zooming in on the Spartan's feet "omg guys the strafe looks crisp".

What counts if it will play decently, if the maps won't be shit for once, if there will be party restrictions and a working ranking system etc. Mostly things we can only judge days/weeks after the game actually launches.

Halo-4-Multiplayer-Screenshot-2.jpg

 

 

When I saw this image, I was fucking hyped. I loved the look of the helmet and the lighting... Then I got my hands on it and could move the camera closer to things and play it. Yikes! 

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34 minutes ago, znot said:

Halo-4-Multiplayer-Screenshot-2.jpg

 

 

When I saw this image, I was fucking hyped. I loved the look of the helmet and the lighting... Then I got my hands on it and could move the camera closer to things and play it. Yikes! 

Dude this image brings back nostalgia, I felt the exact same way haha. H4 pre-launch hype was insane. The armor looked dope, the graphics were super impressive for a 360 title especially. Chief is back! The BR is back! Faster kill times, no more armor lock yada yada yada. The be343ve campaign and "H4pe" on Halocouncil were in full force lmao.

Then the gameinformer leak talked about perks, killstreaks and instant respawn, I was worried. Game comes out, I actually had fun for a few hours but then it dawned on me that this was again the worst Halo game out of the box continuing the downward trend of the franchise. They never fixed shit about the game and I knew 343 were just as bad as Bungie. I haven't bought a Halo game that's not a used copy since.

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