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Classic Halo Esports and HCS Grassroots 2020 Discussion Thread

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On 5/21/2020 at 7:03 PM, Shekkles said:

Hey I've just decided to get in on some of this esports cash so I started my own esports company. We're new on the block but we're going to be a big name before the year is over! The team name is 100% WILL NOT FAIL so make sure you get that #100%WNF hashtag trending on social media!

I borrowed $250,000 from the bank in a short term loan, but I've spend most of that on getting shirts and mugs printed as well as signing my two best friends as social media manager and general manager. We're looking for talented young Halo stars in this alive and thriving series to join us for $250 p/w as long as they stream 30 hours a week and change their twitter handle to @100%WNFplayername.  

We're also looking for some cool media talent. I noticed you've made some images and stuff for other brands, would you be interested in making a logo for us? My grandma tried to make one but it was a knitted jumper and I couldn't scan it well. I can pay you in exposure through our twitter feed which will explode when we win our first big Halo 4 tournament and I can also organise getting you a pair of BRAND NEW Astro A40s.

hmu when you can, this offer will not last!!

sounds like you're ahead of the game, I am in.

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Looks like they went ahead and used Buchholtz score for tiebreakeres to settle the 18 team tie for fifth, which is unfortunate since Buchholtz is a flawed system and especially so when you only have five rounds of data. An incredible shame that the Swiss sytem was butchered in its first HCS use and has lead to 14 teams with the same record has another four miss out on qualifying for the pro tournament. I would be SO very upset to be one of those players who lost one match, just like 17 other teams, and not make the cut based on this system.

For those unaware, the Buchholtz system is a means of determining a competitor's strength of schedule; in theory the team with the higher score face tougher competition so would be better than a team with a similar record but lower score since the former had to work harder for the same record as the latter. However, this system is prone to lots of variance in an open format, as you pretty much have to hope that the team you beat the first round was good enough to win a match or two afterwards. When you combine with the low number of rounds (only five this tournament) and the fact that teams that went 0-2 were eliminated without playing additional rounds (which defeats the purpose of Swiss to begin with) so they're true "strength" for a strength of schedule system cannot be determined, this leaves the Buchholtz score without enough good data to draw from.

Sometimes, since Buchholtz is criticized for breaking ties based on the randomness of who players faced in the first round, a Median-Buchholtz score is used, where the top and bottom ranked opponents each competitor faced are thrown out in determining their score to try and cut down on unlucky draws that resulted in facing a much harder/easier round one opponent than other competitors. But with only five rounds for the 18 teams tied for fifth to draw from, that would leave only three matches to determine Buchhotlz score and likely a bunch of tied within that scoring system.

HCS/Faceit, please consider keeping Swiss as a tournament system but for the sake of your competitors (some of whom are probably rightfully disgruntled with HCS right now) please commit to the system and give it the time it needs. Otherwise, just use this for seeding points for the next open tournament and run a double elim bracket to avoid the headache that this tournament was.

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They are devastated and heartbroken. I feel very bad for those guys. I'd much rather go out early in a double elim knowing I matched a solid two teams and the luck of the draw wasn't in my favor than have VERY close games with another 4-0 team to barely miss getting a perfect record and then realize you don't get to move forward thanks to something totally out of your control.

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3 hours ago, Noodle said:

Looks like they went ahead and used Buchholtz score for tiebreakeres to settle the 18 team tie for fifth, which is unfortunate since Buchholtz is a flawed system and especially so when you only have five rounds of data. An incredible shame that the Swiss sytem was butchered in its first HCS use and has lead to 14 teams with the same record has another four miss out on qualifying for the pro tournament. I would be SO very upset to be one of those players who lost one match, just like 17 other teams, and not make the cut based on this system.

For those unaware, the Buchholtz system is a means of determining a competitor's strength of schedule; in theory the team with the higher score face tougher competition so would be better than a team with a similar record but lower score since the former had to work harder for the same record as the latter. However, this system is prone to lots of variance in an open format, as you pretty much have to hope that the team you beat the first round was good enough to win a match or two afterwards. When you combine with the low number of rounds (only five this tournament) and the fact that teams that went 0-2 were eliminated without playing additional rounds (which defeats the purpose of Swiss to begin with) so they're true "strength" for a strength of schedule system cannot be determined, this leaves the Buchholtz score without enough good data to draw from.

Sometimes, since Buchholtz is criticized for breaking ties based on the randomness of who players faced in the first round, a Median-Buchholtz score is used, where the top and bottom ranked opponents each competitor faced are thrown out in determining their score to try and cut down on unlucky draws that resulted in facing a much harder/easier round one opponent than other competitors. But with only five rounds for the 18 teams tied for fifth to draw from, that would leave only three matches to determine Buchhotlz score and likely a bunch of tied within that scoring system.

HCS/Faceit, please consider keeping Swiss as a tournament system but for the sake of your competitors (some of whom are probably rightfully disgruntled with HCS right now) please commit to the system and give it the time it needs. Otherwise, just use this for seeding points for the next open tournament and run a double elim bracket to avoid the headache that this tournament was.

 

 

The 4 teams that went 5-0:

  • InControl - RPCommon, RRRyno, Rudiment, Psylince
  • HavingZeroFun - RealisedG, sSorrell, FFantvsy, TritonJB
  • PHENOMS - Bound_23, JustinOla, NNeptunE, TriPPeY
  • JR2s Army - jr2X, SickStory, Queenx3, NerdyHimself

The 5 teams with 4-1 records tied for fifth place that made the cut based on Buchholtz:

  • Los Coyotes - Drift117, Noblc, AtzoKiddo, NuggetSSJ
  • NtC - Sceptify, musha_eH, TuskXIII, Its_Name
  • Icon - SmokeYadig, Razon_Blains, Van_HeLsinGG, Schlayygs
  • Status Quo - Stormy628, Jimbossity, FlameswordsQ, Squallayee
  • 69mgs - eEmployee, SECKTO, NJDisplay, RowaNdaBoat

The 13 other teams that tied for fifth place with a 4-1 record:

  • Tempo - _Rawkin_, BeasttBeasts, Plague-_, Fractureddd
  • The Shell - WinntuR, HuNteR_jjx, Elumnite, robtheturtle
  • Real ones - --MoNsteR-, Minds0, GuIVShoT, hiHurricane
  • UnorthodoxGamin - Bunniesz23, Vidas_, SNoWMvN, SystemSTATS
  • Gotham City - TappingB, MagicButtons, gambinoxbx, peluGod
  • EU-Gang - TheSpeedShow, iFearish, MystaOG, thomasblz
  • Stainers - GGoofyy, OpTicDaddy, gilk3y, D3M0N_D
  • Idk - lil_WIll, BobAndretti, Padawin, JForJumper
  • 4 Guys - BlackHalogod, MrcoLeK, Floppie_, RevanYaEngine
  • Legendary ANZ - Nemassist, Sargothcc, LifeStyleBB, Tragicxo
  • Bake a Cake - Kabeadelic, DlDDY, Rhysky, Avozo
  • Just Did It - -FDG, DrPiL, FeaRisSicK, MLGameOver
  • No Half Senders - Blazapc, PiLEZ, Btron, Wargwa

Some of those rosters that didn't make the cut you would have expected to qualify over some of the teams that did. The EU team stayed up past 6:30am to play their matches. It's a travesty that some teams played all night to not get in based on a tie breaker system that becomes random when there's not enough data to support it.

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8 minutes ago, Noodle said:
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Some of those rosters that didn't make the cut you would have expected to qualify over some of the teams that did. The EU team stayed up past 6:30am to play their matches. It's a travesty that some teams played all night to not get in based on a tie breaker system that becomes random when there's not enough data to support it.

This is a heart-breaking for these teams. I think a lot of competitors would be willing to accept a statement saying that Faceit understands the problems they created and will fix them for the next tournament. Hopefully they don't double down...but who am I kidding?

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This is such a poor representation of the Swiss system. And what really sucks is that now, whenever someone suggests it, this is what people otherwise unfamiliar with the system will think of.

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I've come to the conclusion that whoever decided upon the format didn't actually check on how the system works to ensure it being implemented correctly. I wouldn't even really say I'm a fan but people shouldn't be allowed to call these shots that don't really understand the numbers. Its important to actually have enough data to make reasonable assumptions

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Wow this is really an unmitigated disaster. We’ve been running Halo tourneys for almost 20 years and we still can’t manage to get a decent bracket system together. Really feel for all the teams that missed out, I would be pissed as hell.

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13 hours ago, Noodle said:

HCS/Faceit, please consider keeping Swiss as a tournament system but for the sake of your competitors (some of whom are probably rightfully disgruntled with HCS right now) please commit to the system and give it the time it needs. Otherwise, just use this for seeding points for the next open tournament and run a double elim bracket to avoid the headache that this tournament was.

TBH I think they should give up on Swiss, not because it’s a bad system (it’s not), but because 343 and its chosen TOs have clearly showed themselves to be too incompetent to run any but the most basic systems without screwing things up (and they usually screw it up even then).

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The swiss system is absolutely fine, it's the tiebreaker that's the issue.  It baffles me that they decided to use the Buchholz system, instead of just straight up map differential.  I get the point of it, but plus/minus is just a far simpler system.  Especially when there are allegations the calculations weren't even done correctly.  If/when there's a tie go to plan B, but there was just no reason to jump straight to adding more RNG when there are multiple ways of avoiding it. 

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Yeah, I'm not opposed to sticking with Swiss, but Christ...fix your shit...

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The thing we're scared of is seeding being inaccurate, few total rounds, online gameplay and the potential for people to not take every game seriously really delivering a misleading result in a tie that goes that many ways when you try and apply that to a tie break. Unfortunately and understandably they probably didn't want to/don't have the time to properly let them resolve the tie so they did this instead

Overall I think the system they tried to use is fine/viable I'm just not sure it fits in the context of online Halo where you play multiple rounds of different game modes vs something more like Chess where its the exact same game every round

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18 hours ago, Trespa5s said:

The swiss system is absolutely fine, it's the tiebreaker that's the issue.  It baffles me that they decided to use the Buchholz system, instead of just straight up map differential.  I get the point of it, but plus/minus is just a far simpler system.  Especially when there are allegations the calculations weren't even done correctly.  If/when there's a tie go to plan B, but there was just no reason to jump straight to adding more RNG when there are multiple ways of avoiding it. 

there's just now way to do swiss with so few rounds. in hearthstone i think they go to 9 rounds to get to a bracket. it can never end fairly with that many ties

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I hope we get some good teams for this I would love to watch some H2C. Unfortunately the prize pool is pretty low, so that might turn a lot of people off, especially those playing in the H2A tourneys too.

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On 5/25/2020 at 11:46 PM, Noodle said:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

The 4 teams that went 5-0:

  • InControl - RPCommon, RRRyno, Rudiment, Psylince
  • HavingZeroFun - RealisedG, sSorrell, FFantvsy, TritonJB
  • PHENOMS - Bound_23, JustinOla, NNeptunE, TriPPeY
  • JR2s Army - jr2X, SickStory, Queenx3, NerdyHimself

The 5 teams with 4-1 records tied for fifth place that made the cut based on Buchholtz:

  • Los Coyotes - Drift117, Noblc, AtzoKiddo, NuggetSSJ
  • NtC - Sceptify, musha_eH, TuskXIII, Its_Name
  • Icon - SmokeYadig, Razon_Blains, Van_HeLsinGG, Schlayygs
  • Status Quo - Stormy628, Jimbossity, FlameswordsQ, Squallayee
  • 69mgs - eEmployee, SECKTO, NJDisplay, RowaNdaBoat

The 13 other teams that tied for fifth place with a 4-1 record:

  • Tempo - _Rawkin_, BeasttBeasts, Plague-_, Fractureddd
  • The Shell - WinntuR, HuNteR_jjx, Elumnite, robtheturtle
  • Real ones - --MoNsteR-, Minds0, GuIVShoT, hiHurricane
  • UnorthodoxGamin - Bunniesz23, Vidas_, SNoWMvN, SystemSTATS
  • Gotham City - TappingB, MagicButtons, gambinoxbx, peluGod
  • EU-Gang - TheSpeedShow, iFearish, MystaOG, thomasblz
  • Stainers - GGoofyy, OpTicDaddy, gilk3y, D3M0N_D
  • Idk - lil_WIll, BobAndretti, Padawin, JForJumper
  • 4 Guys - BlackHalogod, MrcoLeK, Floppie_, RevanYaEngine
  • Legendary ANZ - Nemassist, Sargothcc, LifeStyleBB, Tragicxo
  • Bake a Cake - Kabeadelic, DlDDY, Rhysky, Avozo
  • Just Did It - -FDG, DrPiL, FeaRisSicK, MLGameOver
  • No Half Senders - Blazapc, PiLEZ, Btron, Wargwa

Some of those rosters that didn't make the cut you would have expected to qualify over some of the teams that did. The EU team stayed up past 6:30am to play their matches. It's a travesty that some teams played all night to not get in based on a tie breaker system that becomes random when there's not enough data to support it.

Feels fucking good to read score statistics again POG

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12 hours ago, LoftiestTea33 said:

Cratos is back, and so are the memes, I hope

never forget

Cwvf9Fy.jpg

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1 hour ago, LoftiestTea33 said:

Never forget

 

as bad as esl was, those early years had some insane personalities and story lines

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After watching this H2C tourney today it's crazy to me how 343 refuses to have any official H2C tourneys. It's been so fun to watch (although they need to change the map selection rules so we don't see Middy CTF and Warlock CTF every single series).

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@Knighty Knight Thank you for the great commentary you provided today! Loved going back and watching you guys discussing our opening match. Unfortunately it was a boring series; hopefully you guys got to witness some better matches throughout the tourney.

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2 hours ago, Commander Eagle said:

After watching this H2C tourney today it's crazy to me how 343 refuses to have any official H2C tourneys. It's been so fun to watch (although they need to change the map selection rules so we don't see Middy CTF and Warlock CTF every single series).

Not being able to play tournament games on a neutral host in custom lobbies really blows.  

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2 hours ago, II AdamanT II said:

@Knighty Knight Thank you for the great commentary you provided today! Loved going back and watching you guys discussing our opening match. Unfortunately it was a boring series; hopefully you guys got to witness some better matches throughout the tourney.

Where can I watch today’s matches?

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1 hour ago, Hard Way said:

Where can I watch today’s matches?

http://www.twitch.tv/blueteamto

3 hours ago, II AdamanT II said:

@Knighty Knight Thank you for the great commentary you provided today! Loved going back and watching you guys discussing our opening match. Unfortunately it was a boring series; hopefully you guys got to witness some better matches throughout the tourney.

I appreciate it. We got to see some great games! 

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19 hours ago, Squatting Bear said:

Not being able to play tournament games on a neutral host in custom lobbies really blows.  

gentleman to h2v lmao. 

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