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Classic Halo Esports and HCS Grassroots 2020 Discussion Thread

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31 minutes ago, Trespa5s said:

I mean, there's a reason that no other major esport uses Slayer/TDM:  it's bland to watch, play, and isn't nearly as competitive as other modes. That being said, without any sort of single life mode it gives a sort of stability in knowing that every game X is going to be the same mode instead of possibly being four different ones. 

No other major esport uses a respawn game mode with weapons/items on the map (except Quake, and guess what, TDM). The issue is the pace at which items spawn in TS. 60sec powerup respawns and 2min power weapons would help. We’d probably need to reduce snipe ammo from 12 to 8 though.

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12 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

No other major esport uses a respawn game mode with weapons/items on the map (except Quake, and guess what, TDM). The issue is the pace at which items spawn in TS. 60sec powerup respawns and 2min power weapons would help. We’d probably need to reduce snipe ammo from 12 to 8 though.

Quake isn't exactly a great comparison considering it's a pure 1v1 and designed to be played at a breakneck pace.  I'll give you that if it were faster paced it would be better, but I'd rather them try to work in a one-life mode or another unique respawn instead of a mode that devolved into two teams hiding once someone hits 40 kills. 

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2 hours ago, Trespa5s said:

Quake isn't exactly a great comparison considering it's a pure 1v1 and designed to be played at a breakneck pace.  I'll give you that if it were faster paced it would be better, but I'd rather them try to work in a one-life mode or another unique respawn instead of a mode that devolved into two teams hiding once someone hits 40 kills. 

They have 2v2 tournaments as well, and they’re very entertaining. Think about what you’re saying though. The situation you described can’t happen in H1 on any map. I’ve also literally NEVER seen a late game stalemate on Beaver Creek. Guess why. It’s that 60sec overshield. If you structure the game correctly, what you described becomes a terrible idea.

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4 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

They have 2v2 tournaments as well, and they’re very entertaining. Think about what you’re saying though. The situation you described can’t happen in H1 on any map. I’ve also literally NEVER seen a late game stalemate on Beaver Creek. Guess why. It’s that 60sec overshield. If you structure the game correctly, what you described becomes a terrible idea.

1)  Huh, didn't know that. I'll check them out.  

2)  I mean I'm not steadfast with this stuff.  If making the timers 60 seconds would work, great.  Like I said, I'm just tired of TS games inevitably become hide and go seek at the end.  I'm down to try different things to make it work though. 

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11 hours ago, Basu said:

Interesting that you bring this here. I know you come from a Arena FPS background (and hate the fact CE and GPMA have strong startingutilities) but this statement just isn't true when looking at the majority of the Halo games. The H3/Reach/4/5 utility get completely destroyed by any sort of map pickup (in competitive settings, not talking Needlers here). Maybe the H2 BR could be considered the strongest weapon because of the instakill glitches, but I wouldn't even go that far. The utlity has been garbage compared to the rest of the sandbox for many years, especially the H3 BR and the H5 Magnum for most of H5's lifespan until the rifles and autos got nerfed/removed.

All in all, Halo has never had a problem with a utility that is too strong outside of (ironically) 343's attempts at recreating the CE gameplay in H5 and CEA, in both cases giving us a way too forgiving 3sk hitscan pistol instead of the real thing. MCC CE is also mostly pistol because of things like broken shotgun and broken plasma stun, but that game is such a mess that it doesn't even count.

Yeah tEcHniCalLy the starting weapon does lose against some other guns but it barely has an impact on the game with weapons spawning slowly and the starting gun being viable at almost any range which no other gun really is. I am just saying that by far the most kills are made with the starter gun and that generally shows that pickups are very weak compared to stuff like Quake World TDM where control is literally messured in the amout of rocket launchers a team can hold onto.

I mean I get that it's kinda what Halo is but what I am saying is that naturally you get people that think there should be some sort of fairness build into maps if your game kits out people who just died with such a potent gun, it gives you the feeling that your death was mainly a loss of 1 score in TDM not so much giving up control (well if your death does make your teams control weaker it's probably based on losing the position and not being able to clean up people with your starting weapon).

But if that is what Halo is about it's pretty bland to say the least and gamemodes like CTF are fairly one dimensional so even if people say they are more competitive they don't come with the depth some games reach for TDM, not that many people here would know about those games tho.

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11 hours ago, Trespa5s said:

I mean, there's a reason that no other major esport uses Slayer/TDM:  it's bland to watch, play, and isn't nearly as competitive as other modes. That being said, without any sort of single life mode it gives a sort of stability in knowing that every game X is going to be the same mode instead of possibly being four different ones. 

I call bullshit. Yeah in games that people play today like CS TDM would be broken because there is no reason to not camp around but back in the day Quake TDM helped forming modern esports. It's less bland to watch than most other things (arguably too complex for spectating a lot of the times tho), has more decision making when playing than any modern esport that isn't RTS or MOBA with fast inputs and yeah not nearly but much more competitive than basically any objective gamemode that has ever seen the day of light in Halo.

Usually don't hammer the elitism that hard but it makes me sad that the legacy that TDM has in esports just seems to be forgotten these days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2IrIjh1tww

11 hours ago, Trespa5s said:

Quake isn't exactly a great comparison considering it's a pure 1v1 and designed to be played at a breakneck pace.  I'll give you that if it were faster paced it would be better, but I'd rather them try to work in a one-life mode or another unique respawn instead of a mode that devolved into two teams hiding once someone hits 40 kills. 

It's not pure 1v1 tho. Sure Quake 3 Arena and its re-release Quake Live did focus a lot on 1v1 but 4v4 and 2v2 TDM has been a thing since 1996 and many tournaments have been played, even at "breakneck pace". These days Quake 3 Arena is remembered as a pretty hardcore game but back in the day people did kinda miss stuff like the armor tiers or the air control from Quake 1 and 2 so there was a mod called "Challenge Pro Mode Arena" or CPMA in short which reintroduced those mechanics. It was basically too hardcore for the normal player to take off as an esport but TDM in that game does have incredible depth compared to TDM in basically any modern game.
At some point the big tournaments moved on to CS ofc since the game was more accessable and games with hard map control and item pickups that meant something basically faded away since it scared away a lot of new players.

If you want to talk competitive potential Halo really never came close to it since it's at most a Mario Party version of an arena shooter, but it's always been like that so it doesn't surprise me people cry about weapons that can actually give you an advantage. Modern gamers want the game to be watered down since getting stomped by somebody that is better isn't fun in many peoples eyes.

You can kinda compare it too chess, you will consistently lose to somebody who is better than you are, Halo isn't that at all, Halo players would probably say chess is broken because white goes first instead of trying to understand why the game has that much of a skillgap.

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1 hour ago, Warlord Wossman said:

but much more competitive than basically any objective gamemode that has ever seen the day of light in Halo.

It's outright not as competitive. Not "barely" more. It's sub-comp to other obj gametypes by nature.

1 hour ago, Warlord Wossman said:

If you want to talk competitive potential Halo really never came close to it since it's at most a Mario Party version of an arena shooter, but it's always been like that so it doesn't surprise me people cry about weapons that can actually give you an advantage

On this, what do Mario Party and Halo share in common with one another, that introduce a level of artificial evenness to the game that could be achieved elsewhere, that in turn may make the game lose comp viability?

12 hours ago, Hard Way said:

No other major esport uses a respawn game mode with weapons/items on the map (except Quake, and guess what, TDM). The issue is the pace at which items spawn in TS. 60sec powerup respawns and 2min power weapons would help. We’d probably need to reduce snipe ammo from 12 to 8 though.

Every pro would disagree with your base argument, and it's why Penance is finally gone.

 

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2 hours ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Yeah tEcHniCalLy the starting weapon does lose against some other guns but it barely has an impact on the game with weapons spawning slowly and the starting gun being viable at almost any range which no other gun really is. I am just saying that by far the most kills are made with the starter gun and that generally shows that pickups are very weak compared to stuff like Quake World TDM where control is literally messured in the amout of rocket launchers a team can hold onto.

I mean I get that it's kinda what Halo is but what I am saying is that naturally you get people that think there should be some sort of fairness build into maps if your game kits out people who just died with such a potent gun, it gives you the feeling that your death was mainly a loss of 1 score in TDM not so much giving up control (well if your death does make your teams control weaker it's probably based on losing the position and not being able to clean up people with your starting weapon).

But if that is what Halo is about it's pretty bland to say the least and gamemodes like CTF are fairly one dimensional so even if people say they are more competitive they don't come with the depth some games reach for TDM, not that many people here would know about those games tho. 

Yes, that's what Halo is in a nutshell. I don't know what to tell you. So yeah it's always been "pretty bland", but you're literally comparing an arena shooter that is too complex for 99% of even hardcore gamers and played on a superior platform and at 2-3x the pace to a console shooter that has never been an arena shooter (sorry H5 marketing team). CE borrowed some neat ideas from AFPS and created this nice hybrid squad/arena thing that then was subsequently eroded with every release and then turned into basically a meme of a shooter with Reach onward, we all know that story.

I'd say for the "ideal Halo" most people would aim for is getting that CE sandbox and pace back and then add the more robust objective gametypes of H2 onward on top. Expand the niche weapon and powerup palette, add some solid maps and that's it. Pushing further into APFS territory with stuff like nerfed starting weapon/nades, no health/shield recharge, spawning with limited health/no shields, dynamic everything, headshot bonus against shields, more powerful items, more ammo in pickups etc. would likely not make it a better game and just turn it into a completely different thing at some point. Would it increase the skill gap? Maybe. But seriously why not just play a real AFPS at that point?

I also fail to see how it's necessarily a bad thing that the majority of kills come from the starting weapon. Saying all weapons need to have equal representation on the post game report sounds like some sort of AR kid or 343 board room meeting idea. Why is this a desirable stat to go for? Make the starting weapon sufficiently hard to use, make sure niche weapons consistently destroy it in their respective niche, give unique advantages like quick camo/swap speed to the other weapons and this "issue" ceases to exist.

Also regarding map control: Just as you say it's a joke that people who don't have map and weapon control don't always go 0-50, others say it's a joke that some weapons are literally free kills. I have limited experience in AFPS but from what I can tell no single powerup/weapon just gives you a free killing spree with barely any effort required. You have to constantly work for kills. You can still choke and get destroyed with rail or rockets, while in Halo this just doesn't happen because the skill in execution is far smaller as, again, it's a console shooter (and always will be even if MCC and Infinite on PC confirmed) and thus lacks any sort of advanced movement tech/strafing and is overall super slow compared to those games (inb4 H5 kids correct me on advanced movement tech.) If you want to know what "total control" looks like in Halo look at Derelict in CE. It's just people up top running in circles stacking camo, rockets and OS and spawnkilling/watching portals with rockets. Some people like it, but most would say it's stupid.

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57 minutes ago, Basu said:

pretty bland

Halo should be bland.  It’s the measuring stick of console FPS.  One man throws a ball.  Another man swings a bat at it.  That’s bland.  But it’s also a good measure of skill.  

57 minutes ago, Basu said:

solid maps

That’s what Halo really needs to succeed.  The map pool represents a significant portion of the overall experience.  We can dance around the issue all day but if the maps aren’t good then Halo won’t be good.  Aside from base player traits, maps are the most important aspect of halo multiplayer (with the weapon sandbox coming in a close third).  

So much talk about shit that doesn’t matter.  The reality is simple.  Good maps, good base traits, good sandbox,  That’s what Halo needs to succeed.  

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I could play Midship and Prisoner an infinite amount of times without ever getting tired. The game doesn't get bland. 

Ask me how many times I can play the best maps in Halo 3 or Reach..

 

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1 hour ago, Knighty Knight said:

I could play Midship and Prisoner an infinite amount of times without ever getting tired. The game doesn't get bland. 

Ask me how many times I can play the best maps in Halo 3 or Reach..

 

The good maps in Halo 3 and Reach are just remakes of CE and H2 maps anyways.

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9 hours ago, Boyo said:

Halo should be bland.  It’s the measuring stick of console FPS.  One man throws a ball.  Another man swings a bat at it.  That’s bland.  But it’s also a good measure of skill.  

It should be bland in that it shouldn't have more abilities than buttons on a controller just to appease CoD tourists with the attention span of a goldfish. It shouldn't have a blinding sun or plasma grenades that serve as flashbangs because "cinematic gaming experience". But I'd say the average MP match shouldn't be bland in terms of thinking and strategy required. It's why stuff like Narrows slayer is so detested because the meta of that map can be figured out after 3 minutes of a social slayer match. Halo can be more than that.

Quote

That’s what Halo really needs to succeed.  The map pool represents a significant portion of the overall experience.  We can dance around the issue all day but if the maps aren’t good then Halo won’t be good.  Aside from base player traits, maps are the most important aspect of halo multiplayer (with the weapon sandbox coming in a close third).  

So much talk about shit that doesn’t matter.  The reality is simple.  Good maps, good base traits, good sandbox,  That’s what Halo needs to succeed.  

I mean yeah but that's like saying all a campaign needs is good story and good gameplay. Duh? The thing about maps is that they can hold a good game back, but the can't carry a bad game. I'd say the sandbox is more important. Just look at CE, it has some pretty weird and low-effort maps like Rat Race, but they still play well because the gameplay holds up. Meanwhile Creek and Penance suck so much in Reach that they're now getting removed from the circuit, because the player traits and sandbox are so garbage.

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A new video just release on Paradise Halo (that I wrote the script for). Have a watch and let me know what y'all think!

 

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On 1/22/2020 at 12:18 PM, Cursed Lemon said:

Does SaLoT have nude pics of every pro ready to drop or something? Why the fuck would they want Onslaught?

if any pro team can't immediately beat an am team, the map is hot garbage. therefore only maps that are simple as fuck get pro approval.

 

But I don't mind having a br dome in reach since it's lacking one. 

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3 minutes ago, Riddler said:

if any pro team can't immediately beat an am team, the map is hot garbage. therefore only maps that are simple as fuck get pro approval 

Bad takes, bad takes abound. 

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12 hours ago, Knighty Knight said:

You can't be really like this. Not really.

You don't spend much time outside of this thread do you?

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9 hours ago, OG Nick said:

You don't spend much time outside of this thread do you?

Haha :laughing:

 

8 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Elaborate.

The post was facetious. Therefore y'all agree. 

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Decided to have a bit of fun with this vid.  Let me know if you guys enjoyed or where I can do better.  Enjoy!  

 

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Asked Saiyin on stream for a gametypes update:

  • BC KotH staying
  • BC Slayer leaving
  • Six gametypes that were tested have now been whittled down to two that are still being tested:
    • Simplex Slayer likely to get into the gameype pool
    • Splash KotH he didn't say was leaning one way or another

When I asked Spartan about the gametypes on stream in chat he said we should know gametypes by Friday.

So that's nine gametypse after the BC slayer and Penance Slayer removals with a potential of two more added for a total of nine to eleven gametypes.

I hope that assault can be tested out on other maps or with different settings after this tournament, I don't wanna give up on it so quickly (although I've barley seen any play on it so not sure if there are fundamental issues with the gametype in Reach that I just don't understand).

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