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Classic Halo Esports and HCS Grassroots 2020 Discussion Thread

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24 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

While I get what you mean I would say H3 maps are not that much better than Countdown or Zealot. I still think Powerhouse is a good KoTH map despite mlg not making use of it at all. And generally saying all good maps in forge are remakes is a joke, as if there was not a single non-remake forge map that played well (idk if you actually meant to state this specifically but it does emerge from your statement).
Damnation remake can be fixed and the beaver creek remake would also play better if they didn't try to force a symmetrical item layout on it in v7. So despite 2 maps being HCE remakes that would make 5 dev maps and doesn't look too weak compared to H3's map pool.
That said no Halo has a great map pool for competitive 4v4, and most of the good 4v4 maps are just symmetrical small arenas, on the asymmetrical side of things there is close to nothing nice for 4v4s. Personally I would like to see more room based maps that really focus on map and item controll and that would again only work with faster item timers, the maps that are currently viewed as "the best" in the series are okay for combat but the controll aspect for items is pretty weak and some of them come with pretty powerful positions that overview a large area of the entire map...
 

When I said good it was mostly relative to the rest of the maps in the game. If I'm being super honest I don't think there is a single good original map in Reach in terms of the entire series for 4v4. I also don't believe any of the forge maps will ever compete with quality dev maps when comparing to every map ever due to obvious limitations 

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No point running PC Reach tournaments tbh, Console and PC events are both going to be played with controllers and a 60 FPS cap

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41 minutes ago, Basu said:

Construct is still way better than Countdown. Zealot is pretty much complete shit, even ONS and AMP are better maps than that. You also forgot Guardian. Bad Slayer map, but hella good for Ball, I also wonder if King would work over TS, but we have to respect that weird obsession with Team Slayer in competitive rotations apparently. Why the FUCK are we playing TS on Penance instead of Hill? I will never understand.

Agree on Narrows, but despite the lazy linear design it still offers better engagements than the majority of Reach maps. Honestly the only good Reach maps in rotation is Nexus. The rest are remakes: The Pit is tolerable in Reach but  I've never been the biggest fan of the map. Sucks for Slayer (anyone seeing a pattern?) BC has great potential but that map is so broken for Slayer and CTF because of the weird archway asymmetry on an otherwise almost symmetrical map. Total Bungie blunder. The other possibly good map is Sanc, but the forge remake is just total ass and should be replaced honestly. Waaay too barebones (which makes sniping from flag a viable strategy which largely ruins the map) and looks about as as gross as a forge map can look. Zealot can suck it, Countdown is mediocre af and Penance shows beautifully how much Halo's gameplay has degraded over the years because in CE that map was a masterpiece.

Not sure if it's way better, I don't really see them as super similar since the clear distinction of bottom and top is way more present on Construct and that would probably also make the map play worse in Reach since the starting weapon is hitscan and those open lines of sight become even more powerful. H3 also gets away with the rocket on top rather well because H3 rockets are somewhat weak compared to HR rockets, might get away with having a grenade launcher there instead if you really wanted to have the map in Reach.
Anyways Countdown isn't great but I would put most H3 and HR maps used in mlg settings in that same category, generally countdown is an okay slayer map and not that great for CTF, even if other weapon layouts like gold pro tried to make it more dynamic again for CTF.

Don't really see Zealot being "complete shit", I am thinking of stuff like Narrows slayer or Midship CTF and cannot really rank them any higher, we have better stuff for sure but for me Zealot is the same kind of "meh" as many other maps we already did use for comp 4v4s.

Ons and Amp are basically Midship remixes. Can see Guardian being nice for ball, not quite a Lockout but it works well (if you don't have to declare illegal spots anyways, patch the map otherwise ffs).

Hill on Penance could work too, but technically there is nothing wrong with a setup style map for slayer, everybody seems to hate it but a map pool should differ in style and having slayer on maps like Warlock, Midship etc essentially means setups are always relatively temporary, imo having the entire map pool like that is a waste of slots. But again if you play slayer on gold pro Penance with faster items the setup style is still a thing but there are more tools to break it / more items to control for the team who wants to lock down the top, the additional teleporter also seems like an okay idea even if I would have prefered it to look more natural with the map layout.

Narrows and Pit being bad I am on board with, Pit doesn't play much better in Reach than it did in H3.

Disagree with the BC comment entirely, if it was symmetrical it would be shit for map control. Please imagine a BC without rock arch and how it would play out, it makes absolutely no sense. The asymmetry is great to make slayer dynamic with the right item layout, without rock arch you would sit on top of the bases and/or side ramps of the map and just pick off spawners...

For Sanctuary they should have taken K25 version and play CTF and bomb, slayer with sided spawns is gimmicky and if you let people spawn all over the map it's not great either, Sanctuary is just best for CTF and assault.

At the end of the day you don't get the best map pool if you don't design with the competitive settings in mind and to my knowledge neither Bungie or 343 ever did that, might be unfair to look at games like Quake because they also had some lucky accidents but despite those the map pools are way stronger than any Halo game could dream of.

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Zealot and Construct are much more similar than most people realize.  

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2 minutes ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Not sure if it's way better, I don't really see them as super similar since the clear distinction of bottom and top is way more present on Construct and that would probably also make the map play worse in Reach since the starting weapon is hitscan and those open lines of sight become even more powerful. H3 also gets away with the rocket on top rather well because H3 rockets are somewhat weak compared to HR rockets, might get away with having a grenade launcher there instead if you really wanted to have the map in Reach.
Anyways Countdown isn't great but I would put most H3 and HR maps used in mlg settings in that same category, generally countdown is an okay slayer map and not that great for CTF, even if other weapon layouts like gold pro tried to make it more dynamic again for CTF.

Don't really see Zealot being "complete shit", I am thinking of stuff like Narrows slayer or Midship CTF and cannot really rank them any higher, we have better stuff for sure butfor me Zealot is the same kind of "meh" as many other maps we already did use for comp 4v4s.

Ons and Amp are basically Midship remixes. Can see Guardian being nice for ball, not quite a Lockout but it works well (if you don't have to declare illegal spots anyways, patch the map otherwise ffs).

Hill on Penance could work too, but technically there is nothing wrong with a setup style map for slayer, everybody seems to hate it but a map pool should differ in style and having slayer on maps like Warlock, Midship etc essentially means setups are always relatively temporary, imo having the entire map pool like that is a waste of slots. But again if you play slayer on gold pro Penance with faster items the setup style is still a thing but there are more tools to break it / more items to control for the team who wants to lock down the top, the additional teleporter also seems like an okay idea even if I would have prefered it to look more natural with the map layout. 

Narrows and Pit being bad I am on board with, Pit doesn't play much better in Reach than it did in H3.

Disagree with the BC comment entirely, if it was symmetrical it would be shit for map control. Please imagine a BC without rock arch and how it would play out, it makes absolutely no sense. The asymmetry is great to make slayer dynamic with the right item layout, without rock arch you would sit on top of the bases and/or side ramps of the map and just pick off spawners...

For Sanctuary they should have taken K25 version and play CTF and bomb, slayer with sided spawns is gimmicky and if you let people spawn all over the map it's not great either, Sanctuary is just best for CTF and assault.

At the end of the day you don't get the best map pool if you don't design with the competitive settings in mind and to my knowledge neither Bungie or 343 ever did that, might be unfair to look at games like Quake because they also had some lucky accidents but despite those the map pools are way stronger than any Halo game could dream of.

I agree in theory about BC and Penance, but in Reach it just doesn't play out like that especially when talking v7 with the weak-ass DMR and not the 4sk GP DMR. I remember the v7 tournament and not a single Slayer match on BC went to blue team, the arch advantage and setup is just way too strong. Same for penance it was a snooze fest.

I might have overreacted about Zealot given recent frustrations in the MCC flight haha. But really the map is insanely mediocre just like Countdown. A solid idea, but ruined by hundreds of bad decisions on a smaller scale. Stuff like the weird curved hallways that make your grenades fly off randomly. The gimmicky lifts, the dumbass windows top mid that you see but can't shoot through. The claustrophobic hallways around GL spawn. Bottom mid being a total death trap. Bottom base making it way too easy to spawntrap etc. It's not the worst map ever but it's also far from good.

Countdown is dumb because of all the 90° corners, the again claustrophobic hallways, the stupid LoS blocker that is the spaceship etc. Again not the worst thing ever but just like Zealot no one is asking for that Countdown remake nice years later.

Dude, 100% spot on about Sanc Slayer. Sided spawns suck, but dynamic spawns are also not ideal. The map is pretty much perfect for CTF/Bomb but I always hated slayer on it.

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That said no Halo has a great map pool for competitive 4v4, and most of the good 4v4 maps are just symmetrical small arenas, on the asymmetrical side of things there is close to nothing nice for 4v4s. Personally I would like to see more room based maps that really focus on map and item controll and that would again only work with faster item timers, the maps that are currently viewed as "the best" in the series are okay for combat but the controll aspect for items is pretty weak and some of them come with pretty powerful positions that overview a large area of the entire map...

Also about this: I think H2 comes pretty damn close. Middy, Warlock, Sanc and Lockout are all fantastic. Warlock might be too hectic and random for some but I love that kind of fast-paced map. It kind of overlaps with Middy in that regard which is a shame, but I still think the two can co-exist.

BC well we just talked about it lol could be good if H2 KOTH wasn't random (was that the problem? I forgot, but there was something broken about it). H2 def. has the strongest 4v4 map pool of the franchise, I just wish there were one or two good asyms that also support TS to mix things up.

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10 minutes ago, Snipe Three said:

When I said good it was mostly relative to the rest of the maps in the game. If I'm being super honest I don't think there is a single good original map in Reach in terms of the entire series for 4v4. I also don't believe any of the forge maps will ever compete with quality dev maps when comparing to every map ever due to obvious limitations 

I def get where you are comming from, I would say Nexus is a nice map for what it does but great 4v4 forge maps in Reach are insanely rare to find. I think this is partially related to mlg using sprint up to v6 so there was only a very short period of time people forged with no sprint in mind when it comes to comp 4v4, some nice maps popped up after the game was essentially done for since H4 took over but the ones I know you can also count with one hand.


The last statement I disagree with tho, sure we have massive limitations in forge but that doesn't mean geometry with great gameplay is impossible to achieve, I am assuming there were just not many serious level designers interested into making Reach maps and the competitive Halo scene always loved to play remakes known from other games rather than giving anything else a chance.
Having used level editors on the PC I can totally confirm that working with forge is a massive pain. I think at the end of the day I might be biased here but having mapped for various arena shooters on the PC I know what level community created content can achieve gameplay wise and I think even within the limitations of forge we got nowhere close to what would have been possible when it comes to (not only) 4v4 maps.

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@Warlord Wossman

As someone who stayed in touch with the forge scene, I would have to say that Halo 4 produced the best forge maps in the series.  You had map designers who gained experience in Reach, and were still hanging on to hope for the series.  Couple that with Pro Mod gametypes and you had a pretty good experience going on (minus descope).  

I know many prominent forgers stuck around for Halo 5 but the mechanics were so different that maps had to be designed in a very different way, a way that didn’t necessarily appeal to classic halo fans.  

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38 minutes ago, Basu said:

I agree in theory about BC and Penance, but in Reach it just doesn't play out like that especially when talking v7 with the weak-ass DMR and not the 4sk GP DMR. I remember the v7 tournament and not a single Slayer match on BC went to blue team, the arch advantage and setup is just way too strong. Same for penance it was a snooze fest.

I might have overreacted about Zealot given recent frustrations in the MCC flight haha. But really the map is insanely mediocre just like Countdown. A solid idea, but ruined by hundreds of bad decisions on a smaller scale. Stuff like the weird curved hallways that make your grenades fly off randomly. The gimmicky lifts, the dumbass windows top mid that you see but can't shoot through. The claustrophobic hallways around GL spawn. Bottom mid being a total death trap. Bottom base making it way too easy to spawntrap etc. It's not the worst map ever but it's also far from good.

Countdown is dumb because of all the 90° corners, the again claustrophobic hallways, the stupid LoS blocker that is the spaceship etc. Again not the worst thing ever but just like Zealot no one is asking for that Countdown remake nice years later.

Dude, 100% spot on about Sanc Slayer. Sided spawns suck, but dynamic spawns are also not ideal. The map is pretty much perfect for CTF/Bomb but I always hated slayer on it.

Also about this: I think H2 comes pretty damn close. Middy, Warlock, Sanc and Lockout are all fantastic. Warlock might be too hectic and random for some but I love that kind of fast-paced map. It kind of overlaps with Middy in that regard which is a shame, but I still think the two can co-exist.

BC well we just talked about it lol could be good if H2 KOTH wasn't random (was that the problem? I forgot, but there was something broken about it). H2 def. has the strongest 4v4 map pool of the franchise, I just wish there were one or two good asyms that also support TS to mix things up.

Right, the 4sk DMR is a must have for more room based layouts like Penance and it improves BC too since flanking/teleporting players are too easily shut down by teamshot in v7. The rock arch being "overpowered" is a bit of a weird statement, it's a power position that should be huge, the problem with BC slayer in v7 is that the team on blue side doesn't get any tool to go against it and that red side gets a sniper rifle. Camo is the sort of powerup you are looking for on BC to give blue team a chance to break into red, in a spot where the red team would have to expose itself a lot when trying to pick it up themselves, esp on a fast timer camo can do a lot for the map.
And the sniper only spawning blue is also forcing a team sitting in red to rotate around the map every so often to even have access to more snipe ammo, having the sniper respawn on top of the red ramp is just a bad decision in v7. In general BC is a map that slows down massively with 2 snipers for slayer since teams sit around seperated on opposite side of the map and the 2 sniper players are lurking around to pick up easy kills / take down each other before any sort of other push happens. I am honestly not sure who thought it was a good idea to give BC this symmetrical item layout, it's probably related to the problem that most Halo maps people think are great happen to be symmetrical...

At this point we pretty much agree with what has been said about Countdown, Zealot and Sanc so no additional comments on that.

I guess you are right about the 4 H2 maps being the most solid 4v4 map pool but as you said it doesn't offer a lot of variety at all, Lockout is standing out the most and ideally we would have map pools with a lot more stuff feeling different when you play on it. Can't help it but say that the CE 2v2 map pool is great compared to any sort of 4v4 map pool in any Halo game.

Reach was probably just so late in the series that people didn't want to experiment and after spint and bloom were gone (thank god) people just wanted some classic maps pasted in to go along with it. I have a fully functional map sitting around in Reach that never got tested (and that's the first map I feel confident about since I started mapping in Reach and made a bunch of maps that I decided shouldn't even be tested).
 

21 minutes ago, Boyo said:

@Warlord Wossman

As someone who stayed in touch with the forge scene, I would have to say that Halo 4 produced the best forge maps in the series.  You had map designers who gained experience in Reach, and were still hanging on to hope for the series.  Couple that with Pro Mod gametypes and you had a pretty good experience going on (minus descope).  

I know many prominent forgers stuck around for Halo 5 but the mechanics were so different that maps had to be designed in a very different way, a way that didn’t necessarily appeal to classic halo fans.  

Yeah I can totally see that, Reach was the first game where you could really make your own map designs, only really saw midship clones in the very limited H3 forge (and you couldn't do much more with it for 4v4).
And you are not wrong about H5, only saw neat maps that are for classic Halo in the Mythic settings, additionally to sprint clamber ruins maps too now so it does make sense you would only find maps for classic style in settings with both of them toggled off.

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Penance KOTH should be a gametype for NBNS Reach. And honestly I've give one flag a look. I played some asymm flag customs (one flag in green the other at plasma pistol, two rounds, switch sides for second round) on that back in the GoldPro days and it was a lot of fun. People used the entire map and camping/sitting in green was much less prevalent than in slayer, even though one of the flags was there.

I hope Anchor 9 can be used in some capacity, although I'm not 100% sure how you'd clean it up for high level play. On one hand I think zero grav is a non-starter, but if you cut off the zero grav section of the map you cut off a lot of the map's flow and make top health (already the power position on the map) that much more powerful. Your only option at that point is teleporter cheese. Maybe man cannons from the DMR plats into the top health windows? But I don't know if I like that either.

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35 minutes ago, Boyo said:

@Warlord Wossman

As someone who stayed in touch with the forge scene, I would have to say that Halo 4 produced the best forge maps in the series.  You had map designers who gained experience in Reach, and were still hanging on to hope for the series.  Couple that with Pro Mod gametypes and you had a pretty good experience going on (minus descope).  

I know many prominent forgers stuck around for Halo 5 but the mechanics were so different that maps had to be designed in a very different way, a way that didn’t necessarily appeal to classic halo fans.  

What are your favorite H4 forge maps? I remember testing some really good stuff with xX Overkill VR for Promod back in the day. I remember Memento was great and Scythe was a blast for FFA but I forgot most of the other map names.

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Yeah one flag def has potential, esp if the rounds do not end once the team caps and you have 8 minutes rounds, way less ties that way and fewer resets than the traditional 4 rounds they use for Reach TU 1flag, it just resets map/item control more and interrupts the gameplay flow. I think I played the gold pro one flag at some point but I cannot really remember since it has been a while and that gametype didn't pop up as much (some people I played customs with were too fancy to buy the DLC).

I don't think Anchor 9 can be used, iirc it was considered for mlg settings back in the day already and aPK made a version of it introducing connecting bridges from the bases to the middle and a teleporter from bottom middle to the middle space area which is the only low gravity area that is not cut off from the map. The problem is that the map isn't much besides 2 large bases and a line of sight blocker in the middle with a few rooms, I would test it again tho and see how it plays with gold pro settings.

Back in the day I also worked on forge maps on Tempest and Ridgeline since you get all the forge pieces on those and had a chance to introduce slightly different visuals by including the native parts to those maps, but I started too late to get anywhere since everybody moved on to H4...

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3 hours ago, Hully said:

I don't even know about that. I was watching Naded play last night and the amount of blanks he was getting was comical. 

Yeah, it's a big problem in every online shooter. It's impossible to avoid. Especially in a game like Halo where the maximum kill time is so long

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2 hours ago, Basu said:

What are your favorite H4 forge maps? I remember testing some really good stuff with xX Overkill VR for Promod back in the day. I remember Memento was great and Scythe was a blast for FFA but I forgot most of the other map names.

Panic Attack and Wildfire were revolutionary in regards to 5v5/6v6 gameplay.  Reach had a decent heavies map where Wraiths moved along streets below and infantry had routes above that was a pretty good map.  

There were so many more maps that were good though.  There was one that had a purple Lift up to the top of an octagon elevated bridge with two ramps leading up to it.  Can’t remmeber the name but it was good map.  @a Chunk salty?

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13 hours ago, Craneteam said:

i for one look forward to squinting at grey on grey maps while 343 forgets to implement the NBNS version they created

I'll bite, 343 added some new assets to forge and with Reach going to PC that means the entire Reach asset is at our disposal with mods. It's just up to 343 if they would let us use them for competitive play as it may not work on consoles.

 

But grey maps don't HAVE to happen. Hell we could mod textures onto the damn pieces.

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2 hours ago, Boyo said:

Panic Attack and Wildfire were revolutionary in regards to 5v5/6v6 gameplay.  Reach had a decent heavies map where Wraiths moved along streets below and infantry had routes above that was a pretty good map.  

There were so many more maps that were good though.  There was one that had a purple Lift up to the top of an octagon elevated bridge with two ramps leading up to it.  Can’t remmeber the name but it was good map.  @a Chunk

 

I think I've successfully blocked out most of Halo 4.  It's not ringing any bells for me.

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1 minute ago, a Chunk said:

I think I've successfully blocked out most of Halo 4.  It's not ringing any bells for me.

Grass ground level symmetrical leads up to a floating, open middle octagon bridge with a purple lift in the back.  Pretty sure SKB was one of the designers.  Or someone who liked to make midships.  

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We survived Phase 1 of HCS Grassroots! 1 more game to go! I like to call this little achievement a 

                                     takeTheRob at 3xVictory Royale takeTheRob at 3x

 

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3 hours ago, Warlord Wossman said:

Yeah one flag def has potential, esp if the rounds do not end once the team caps and you have 8 minutes rounds, way less ties that way and fewer resets than the traditional 4 rounds they use for Reach TU 1flag, it just resets map/item control more and interrupts the gameplay flow. I think I played the gold pro one flag at some point but I cannot really remember since it has been a while and that gametype didn't pop up as much (some people I played customs with were too fancy to buy the DLC).

I don't think Anchor 9 can be used, iirc it was considered for mlg settings back in the day already and aPK made a version of it introducing connecting bridges from the bases to the middle and a teleporter from bottom middle to the middle space area which is the only low gravity area that is not cut off from the map. The problem is that the map isn't much besides 2 large bases and a line of sight blocker in the middle with a few rooms, I would test it again tho and see how it plays with gold pro settings.

Back in the day I also worked on forge maps on Tempest and Ridgeline since you get all the forge pieces on those and had a chance to introduce slightly different visuals by including the native parts to those maps, but I started too late to get anywhere since everybody moved on to H4...

I had this conversation back in H2 so many times. I was convinced that 1 flag Lockout would have been a good competitive gametype, but everyone told me I was nuts. Looking back I don't know if it would have, but I like the concept of attack/defend gametypes. 

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Just now, Hully said:

I had this conversation back in H2 so many times. I was convinced that 1 flag Lockout would have been a good competitive gametype, but everyone told me I was nuts. Looking back I don't know if it would have, but I like the concept of attack/defend gametypes. 

I made the realization that if you want one sided objectives, and vehicles dedicated to stealing the enemy flag, then games need to be near the 6v6 player mark.  You can’t be packing your whole team into one hog.  6v6 for basic objectives.  9v9 for complex objectives.  

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3 minutes ago, Boyo said:

I made the realization that if you want one sided objectives, and vehicles dedicated to stealing the enemy flag, then games need to be near the 6v6 player mark.  You can’t be packing your whole team into one hog.  6v6 for basic objectives.  9v9 for complex objectives.  

I mean I love BTB so that sounds good to me. 

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I’m actually a big fan of one-sides gametypes. Brings a whole new dynamic in where you’re really laser-focused in on one specific objective. However, they need to make powerup/power weapon spawns frequent enough to discourage camping by the defense.

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1 hour ago, Commander Eagle said:

I’m actually a big fan of one-sides gametypes. Brings a whole new dynamic in where you’re really laser-focused in on one specific objective. However, they need to make powerup/power weapon spawns frequent enough to discourage camping by the defense.

I would like to see "guaranteed loss" though. So if it's 1 flag CTF and they're 2 up and there's 1 round left, it just doesn't play the round. There's no point going 2 - 1. Personal preference.

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1 hour ago, Boyo said:

Grass ground level symmetrical leads up to a floating, open middle octagon bridge with a purple lift in the back.  Pretty sure SKB was one of the designers.  Or someone who liked to make midships.  

Opticon

 

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