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Classic Halo Esports and HCS Grassroots 2019 Discussion Thread

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2 hours ago, Teapot said:

It blows my mind to see this quality of a tournament run for Halo CE. We have had a few tournaments over the past few years but in terms of production quality this is by far the best.

I agree.  I thought UGC did a great job with Halo CE.  The aspect ratio made my ocd tingle a bit but besides that I've really enjoyed what little of the rebroadcast I've been able to watch so far.  I'm hoping that they keep it going.

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On 1/13/2019 at 10:29 PM, L0l0 said:

I honestly want Denial to win because i want Str8sick to get his first tournament win.

Str8 Sick has a won both FFA and 4v4 LAN tournaments before.

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Pretty neutral on weapon hitmarkers to be honest, but I think it's good we have consensus that nade hitmarkers need to go.

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48 minutes ago, Squatting Bear said:

Str8 Sick has a won both FFA and 4v4 LAN tournaments before.

His only 4v4 wins of late on that list are a couple of online tournaments, and the only LAN 4v4 win is RTX 2014 (Halo 4). I guess that counts? 

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I hate the fact that I've to always watch the Grand Finals the next day and avoid social media until I do. It would be nice to see it live.

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35 minutes ago, Xenharmonic said:

His only 4v4 wins of late on that list are a couple of online tournaments, and the only LAN 4v4 win is RTX 2014 (Halo 4). I guess that counts? 

looking at the comp.. it counts but not as a major. a ton of players were missing but heinz, formal, apg and lethul were there soooo that adds a lot more value to the win

 

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Leading shots is a great mechanic if handled well. It's not unintuitive if you think about it logically or have ever shot a gun. Leading has a nearly infinite skillgap because predicting strafes and judging distance is incredibly hard. 

 

I like shield flare especially with single shot weapons but I'm not opposed to hitmarkers for a truly competitive game. Confirming information like shot registration is not a bad thing especially online. 

 

As for the sniper rifle discussion, the CE sniper is by far the most skillful when you consider the full weapon sandbox even though it fires really fast. In Halo 3 It's way too easy to get away or avoid damage while getting kills with it because the BR is useless. In Halo 1 you have a very small window to get a kill before a guy with a pistol kills you. You have to be really good with it to get kills. One of the biggest differences in the CE skillgap between goats and mid tier is sniper rifle skill. Most mid tier players won't even pick it up on smaller maps if they're trying to win because they know they'll miss and get killed quickly. Nobody avoids the sniper in Halo 3 because it's just obviously a better weapon and even if you're not great with it you can land body shots and quick swap to the BR for cleanup. You can't do that in h1. 

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Weapon hitmarkers I can take or leave. I don't really care about them so I'm fine if we have them or not. (Although I prefer Shield Flare because it gives the same information.)

 

Hitmarkers for splash damage, not just grenades, can fuck right off. You shouldn't be getting any kind of information from yeeting explosives around corners like a monkey flings its shit. 

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Reach had my favourite snipe. Felt intuitive without doing everything for you like h4/5. 

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5 hours ago, Riddler said:

Burst fire is inherently less skillful because you can just swipe for the final headshot and you get partial credit. Also with 11/12 required for a kill you cant even argue that hitting a perfect kill is more skillful

Yes, leading shots is more skillful. Yes its less intutive, yes its not consistent because you have to predict. Reading your opponents strafe is part of that skill, fighting the aim assist is part of that skill, knowing where to place the crosshair without direct visuals is part of the skill. Hitscan lacks all of that. It has no depth other than can you put the crosshair on the person which is actually pretty easy. Its why pc games either have hitscan and high movement speed or projectile and low moving speed. Or its hitscan like but has spread patterns. Halo has always had low movement speeds so sure... we can have higher movement speeds but i’d argue is that really halo. You have to predict whether your opponent takes route a or route b. Being unpredictable is 1/3 of halos skillgap. Execution and teamwork are the other two.

The sniper on mcc ce is ********. Its not similar to the og ce sniper... at all. Its hitscan and the hitboxers are bigger.  It also feels easier to aim/place your reticle (so more aim assist). If you ever want to feel how it aims, we could set up a game on 360/og over xlan. You can be host or offhost if ur close enough to SC. Or watch an offhost montage i guess but im sure theyre all 240p. Aiming on the same plane is easy enough but aiming on different planes, say shotguns to camo on dammy is really hard. You also have a two shot long range weapon thats impossible to aim unscoped vs a pistol that 3-6shots but hitting the headshot is super important when you only have a window for 1 shot. Without a sniper in any game, it makes parts of the map really safe. Its the counter to high ground advantage, at the cost of being hard to use. 

I never argued a burst fire weapon was good, and the post you quoted said I'd rather they make it something akin to a NB DMR.

Second, if it's admittedly less intuitive and less consistent because of that prediction factor, how is it more skillful? You can't actually tell me that fighting the thing that is meant to help you aim with inconsistent thumbs and analogue sticks is somehow good. And you can't tell me reading an opponent's strafe is also part of it when the inherent part of a strafe is how inconsistent it can be to the person you're doing it against. Which is why you do it. Because people can't read your mind. 

To that point, "putting your crosshair on a person" evidently isn't easy given there's a giant skillrange in these games in spite of how easy or hard the utility can be. If it was actually pretty easy, everyone would be a pro, or at least hypothetically on average with each other. But we're not. And the fact you have an instant and consistent shot doesn't mean that hitscan lacks depth. It just means you hit where you aim, and have consistency. It doesn't mean the game will auto-aim for you. And a lack of hitscan doesn't mean depth is inevitable. 

Second, I know the CE sniper differs by build and version. It's still not a superbly hard weapon across all of them. I've used it before too, lol.

8 hours ago, Hard Way said:

H3 does the best job with this. What are you talking about? The shield gets brighter and brighter until it pops, and it shows you lights on the knees that get brighter as the shield gets closer to popping. You can look at a guy that has been shot and the shield has stopped flaring but hasn’t started recharging, and still know almost exactly how weak he is. 

But here's the thing, I don't look at my enemy's knees while I'm shooting them. As slow as Halo 3 is, focusing on a specific part of the body in motion, in a zoomed out view after I may die isn't exactly what I'd consider a terribly consistent method of figuring out how weak someone I shot is. Especially when I'm also swapping to other viewpoints to figure out where teammates are, or what they're doing. 

And here's the other thing about that. Assuming I do, and assuming I see and can accurately guess how much damage I dealt out, it's still something I only learn when I die. Not before. There have been many times where I will challenge a fight thinking I put in damage, but in reality, I didn't, and I end up eating lead on a respawn screen while my enemy's one shot. In Halo 5, I've never had an issue with figuring out just how much damage I deal because of the consistency of my weapon, and more so the accuracy of hitmarkers. With them, I can then make that choice without overchallenging like an idiot. Because I have actually good information being conveyed to me in a way that eliminates all vague details about a gunfight. It's not just about learning how much damage I did after I died, because knowing that beforehand will either make me or stop me from pushing and enable me to make smarter, more consistent plays. Some Halos have had "fine" methods of feedback (Reach's did it well on NB), but Halo 3's is the worst by far, amplified by its weapon. I'm an advocate for both. Have an option for hitmarkers. Because I would love them over just normal shield flare, especially for as long as burst fire weapons will be in the series.

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9 hours ago, Riddler said:

 

And for the current topic. In 2008-2010 when i played 8 hours a day, i always knew, whether off host or onhost l, how many bullets i landed based on how the shield flare. It would flare differently if you only landed 1, 2, or 3. Now idk if its because i just dont play enough, or its just mcc being glitch, but I cant tell shit off shield flare anymore. I feel like shield flare is client side now. I’ll think i didnt reg anyshot but then my teammate kills him in one. 

I noticed the same thing at times on MCC. Its like the shield flare bugs out sometimes and just doesn't actually work. As you said though when it actually works and you're familiar with the game you can absolutely tell exactly how many shots hit. I'm definitely gonna toss this one into the MCC weirdness pile

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How much of a difference would I see between 150mbps download and say 250? 400? 1000? For Halo 3

Currently at 150 down, 20 up, 30ish ping. Those numbers would improve as well along with download

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15 minutes ago, Mentalityy_TLC said:

How much of a difference would I see between 150mbps download and say 250? 400? 1000? For Halo 3

Currently at 150 down, 20 up, 30ish ping. Those numbers would improve as well along with download

Honestly i dont think it would do much. Bungies net code in halo 3 is just horrific. 150 down and 20 up is just fine.

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46 minutes ago, Llamaas said:

Honestly i dont think it would do much. Bungies net code in halo 3 is just horrific. 150 down and 20 up is just fine.

See that’s what I thought but I’m still getting warriored by kids. It’s not a huge burden to upgrade but I wasn’t sure if it would make any difference.

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1 hour ago, Mentalityy_TLC said:

How much of a difference would I see between 150mbps download and say 250? 400? 1000? For Halo 3

Currently at 150 down, 20 up, 30ish ping. Those numbers would improve as well along with download

I have 300 down and 24 up and still get lag on this game lol. 

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wait so seriously, what happened with crowdfunding for UGC?  were prize pools increased?

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2 minutes ago, valaea said:

wait so seriously, what happened with crowdfunding for UGC?  were prize pools increased?

They went to AGL Chad's skateboard empire. 

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Been replaying Mass Effect 2, so haven't had a chance to check the patch. Main menu looks dope though.

 

Thoughts on modern aiming?

 

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5 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I never argued a burst fire weapon was good, and the post you quoted said I'd rather they make it something akin to a NB DMR.

Second, if it's admittedly less intuitive and less consistent because of that prediction factor, how is it more skillful? You can't actually tell me that fighting the thing that is meant to help you aim with inconsistent thumbs and analogue sticks is somehow good. And you can't tell me reading an opponent's strafe is also part of it when the inherent part of a strafe is how inconsistent it can be to the person you're doing it against. Which is why you do it. Because people can't read your mind. 

To that point, "putting your crosshair on a person" evidently isn't easy given there's a giant skillrange in these games in spite of how easy or hard the utility can be. If it was actually pretty easy, everyone would be a pro, or at least hypothetically on average with each other. But we're not. And the fact you have an instant and consistent shot doesn't mean that hitscan lacks depth. It just means you hit where you aim, and have consistency. It doesn't mean the game will auto-aim for you. And a lack of hitscan doesn't mean depth is inevitable. 

Second, I know the CE sniper differs by build and version. It's still not a superbly hard weapon across all of them. I've used it before too, lol.

But here's the thing, I don't look at my enemy's knees while I'm shooting them. As slow as Halo 3 is, focusing on a specific part of the body in motion, in a zoomed out view after I may die isn't exactly what I'd consider a terribly consistent method of figuring out how weak someone I shot is. Especially when I'm also swapping to other viewpoints to figure out where teammates are, or what they're doing. 

And here's the other thing about that. Assuming I do, and assuming I see and can accurately guess how much damage I dealt out, it's still something I only learn when I die. Not before. There have been many times where I will challenge a fight thinking I put in damage, but in reality, I didn't, and I end up eating lead on a respawn screen while my enemy's one shot. In Halo 5, I've never had an issue with figuring out just how much damage I deal because of the consistency of my weapon, and more so the accuracy of hitmarkers. With them, I can then make that choice without overchallenging like an idiot. Because I have actually good information being conveyed to me in a way that eliminates all vague details about a gunfight. It's not just about learning how much damage I did after I died, because knowing that beforehand will either make me or stop me from pushing and enable me to make smarter, more consistent plays. Some Halos have had "fine" methods of feedback (Reach's did it well on NB), but Halo 3's is the worst by far, amplified by its weapon. I'm an advocate for both. Have an option for hitmarkers. Because I would love them over just normal shield flare, especially for as long as burst fire weapons will be in the series.

Unless I'm mistaken you've never played on LAN in CE against a top player who can really shoot the pistol. The challenge in CE sniping comes more from the punishment from the opponent than the raw aiming (which is still hard imo, certainly harder than any other Halo with the possible exception of 3).

 

And leading a strafe with projectile is not inconsistent. You think it is because you haven't put in the practice. When you play against and watch how a top player physically aims and paces their shots to match a strafe, it's apparent that most people have tendencies with their strafes that top players have learned to predict with muscle memory. 

 

I do agree with you about hitmarkers. Given how random the H3 BR is especially it'd be nice to know how many shots are actually hitting. 

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20 minutes ago, Frostbite XV2 said:

Been replaying Mass Effect 2, so haven't had a chance to check the patch. Main menu looks dope though.

 

Thoughts on modern aiming?

 

I can't tell if it's made my aim much worse, or if that's just that's my natural lack of skill shining through.

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3 hours ago, VinnyMendoza said:

Unless I'm mistaken you've never played on LAN in CE against a top player who can really shoot the pistol. The challenge in CE sniping comes more from the punishment from the opponent than the raw aiming (which is still hard imo, certainly harder than any other Halo with the possible exception of 3).

 

And leading a strafe with projectile is not inconsistent. You think it is because you haven't put in the practice. When you play against and watch how a top player physically aims and paces their shots to match a strafe, it's apparent that most people have tendencies with their strafes that top players have learned to predict with muscle memory. 

 

I do agree with you about hitmarkers. Given how random the H3 BR is especially it'd be nice to know how many shots are actually hitting. 

First, difficulty coming from punishment from the opponent will happen in any Halo, even in Halo 4 with a beam rifle. If you are rushed by anyone holding their utility and you have a sniper, in any Halo, I guarantee you'll be punished. Maybe you'll get a lucky no scope as we all do, but the idea of punishment isn't new there and happens everywhere else. Punishment aside, raw aiming sure as fucking hell is not, lmao. And if your comparison method is Halo 3, a sniper that is nowhere near as hard as people say it is, that bar is lower than Halo 5's lifetime relevance. 

Second, can we stop the fallacy of "Oh, you think X because you lack skill and/or didn't put in practice." No one here barring three people I know on this forum have seen me play in recent times, lmao. And furthermore, even if I didn't practice, the fact it's inconsistent has nothing to do with my skill. If I were good, or if I were bad, having someone simply outwalk my bullets, or me whiffing my first or second shots because distance judgement can't be 100% accurate as is would happen regardless and still be inconsistent, lmao. My whiffing there isn't a matter of me being poor in aiming. It's a matter of me guessing distance and re-calibrating subconsciously. It's never something that I think "how do I improve this" with. Never has been. Because it's simply not a matter of me getting better, lol. I literally will only know if I lead well after I pull the trigger and my bullets hit. It's a reactive action, it's not proactive. No amount of practice can make me truly perfect a reactive action that I can only know the result of afterwards, never before. I can obviously guess and attempt to mitigate the results, as I do in Failo 3, but I will never reach that point where leading is no problemo to me, and I operate like a machine knowing distance and leading for sure, because the delta in distance and leading distance required will change from 20m, to 30m, to 50m, and so on, and lead to me eternally over or undershooting every so often, because it's literally that, me just guessing better. Which is what most of my Failo 3 fights are now, lol. Me just assuming over actually learning. Could four someone 20m out, and then five-six shot someone 27m out. And that itself will change based on how they move, be it vertically, or horizontally. It will never be something I'm sure of, walking to someone in Halo 3. Obviously I can get better to a point, as I have, but I won't be as good as I could be if guesswork was eliminated.

Then there's hitscan, where I know if I shoot at someone in RRR, or have someone center mass in white reticle, I will hit them and I know it. Because I'm aiming at them. Not off them, and just hoping they don't outwalk my bullets, lol. It's an immediate, proactive reaction I know I can perfect, because me actually aiming is a tangible skill I can work on. I can change where and how I aim, as I did moving my reticle down so I stop aiming at the head, years back. Me aiming off target and hoping the target is hit isn't a super tangible skill, and will always be subject to that actual inconsistency.

Besides, strafing is given way too much credit here. The tendency is simply moving left and right. The acceleration coupled with an already pretty slow movement speed pretty much nullifies it with any game but Halo 5, which allows you to crouch as you walk and gives some change to the formula.

 

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5 hours ago, Hully said:

I can't tell if it's made my aim much worse, or if that's just that's my natural lack of skill shining through.

It’s definitely destroyed whatever flow I had grinding to a 30, now I’m stuck at 29-30 with a HORRENDOUS BR cuz I’m switching between modern and some settings on classic aiming that are supposed to be good... welp.

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16 minutes ago, PLaTaNo said:

It’s definitely destroyed whatever flow I had grinding to a 30, now I’m stuck at 29-30 with a HORRENDOUS BR cuz I’m switching between modern and some settings on classic aiming that are supposed to be good... welp.

You foolz crazy. Modern aim is the best thing that's happened to this game 

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