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CyReN

Classic Halo Esports and HCS Grassroots 2019 Discussion Thread

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I'm back.

So I increased the movement and strafe acceleration, along with jump height, gravity, and slide distance. Time to reach max sprint speed is halved, along with clamber speed and the ability to reload while you're running.

Here are the results.

Plaza https://gameclipscontent-d3012.xboxlive.com/xuid-2533274849503099-private/dc98fbcd-66a0-4f51-8eab-4b88d5144d32.MP4?sv=2015-12-11&sr=b&si=DefaultAccess&sig=2ihpCL5NZqCI2pmPw0Fal4bcbLSOnVRyzV2f50z3d2g%3D&__gda__=1558924121_230dcc2b0c71a3d68b9797870098e66d

Truth https://gameclipscontent-d3007.xboxlive.com/xuid-2533274849503099-private/d450d5a5-d597-42a6-998b-031152d163ba.MP4?sv=2015-12-11&sr=b&si=DefaultAccess&sig=CDTd2Ygyip94cBEsz3lYXsJmLfBfPqiWcR02h1OPONA%3D&__gda__=1558924322_001ee3bdf2c4ca83044225deddda7d98

Fathom https://gameclipscontent-d2015.xboxlive.com/xuid-2533274849503099-private/99c2bb47-3f42-41bb-861c-5b770637ceb9.MP4?sv=2015-12-11&sr=b&si=DefaultAccess&sig=6C8PtRLs%2BZ8A80l68I86sEdgpsR3gFBuURL%2FCczi%2FKs%3D&__gda__=1558924353_32e09c23d8f4b2e0ea29c717f959d5b5

Pros: Movement is much more predictable than full Spartan Ability usage or even HCS Settings. Your gun is up more often because of the quicker animations, and the strafe actually matters. Shooting a sliding Spartan doesn't completely shut off your aim assist when he's doing the animation, so less finicky cursor adjustments.

Cons: You can still use Slide to get into, or escape fights, regardless of having an easier time to chase. Omni directional gunfighting is possible, but not the forefront of gameplay. Maps still have to accommodate for Sprint.

So...yeah.

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1 hour ago, Knighty Knight said:

If base movement is increased I don't think people will cry too much about sprint being gone.
 

I'm sure many will cry about it because of the principle of sprint being gone due to not having a deep understanding of the game's mechanics.

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I literally can not wait for further years of this forum complaining about sprint like it will actually anything.

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42 minutes ago, Zavehi said:

I literally can not wait for further years of this forum complaining about sprint like it will actually anything.

Its literally the biggest complaint we have had as a community since Reach, and I doubt they will revert it, but I still complain because I love halo and want the new games to be good.

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6 hours ago, Basu said:

Thrust is mostly used to cheese out of gunfights and because people are garbage at decision making

This is a remarkably superficial take. Thrust-based movement mechanics are essential to the current Halo 5 meta, and it's not because maps were designed with that type of movement in mind; plus, pros overwhelmingly agree that thrust contributes to the skill curve - they've never unilaterally objected to its inclusion in Halo. I'm not sure where you get this idea in your head that "Movement is literally the same in H5" without thrust, but it makes it seem like you have neither picked up the game since launch nor seen a tournament in the last three years. If thrust is "used to cheese out of gunfights," it's because the base movement speed is so low compared to the map size that it's unfeasible to reach cover and avoid being absolutely melted w/o thrust. This has also made the preservation of thrust a key aspect of decision making - use your thrust at a sub-optimal time and you're as good as dead. Thrust obviously augments the individual skill curve of gunfights as well. Everything I'm saying here is extremely evident given any modicum of time spent playing or watching the game, so I'm not sure why you appear to be so ignorant on the matter.

 

11 hours ago, TheSimms said:

Agreed, its done nothing but damage to competitive imho. Honestly, i know sprint is a hot topic but i'm more worried about hit markers, they literally ruined Halo 5 and are the single worst thing to ever happen to the franchise.

You think hit markers are what ruined Halo 5? Not the bare husk of H5 and veritable drought of content at launch? Not the refusal by 343 to change the competitive game mechanics for more than a year, despite constant pressure from the entire competitive community? Not the randomized cosmetics system corrupted by microtransactions that utterly failed to incentivize any time spent grinding the game?

Hit markers in general are fine; in fact, they're beneficial to Halo 5 online matchmaking - the game's shot registration online is inconsistent enough that hit markers are essential for players to know how many shots they've actually put into an opponent. 

Grenade hit markers, however, are a different matter entirely. If 343 actually listened to the pros and to the community, they would keep normal hit markers and get rid of grenade hit markers. 

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Just get rid of grenades and rockets and your hitmarkers issue goes away :simms:

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@IcePrincess and @EddyAOS lol guys I'm aware of the thrust slide jump combo but that's a COMBO and not people using thrust itself primarily to move around the map. Thrust is mostly used as a defensive ability, this has been a fact ever since the game came out and the biggest issue with it aside from its detrimental effects on the sandbox. Chances are that even without thrust there will be some sort of slide hopping combo. Slide, clamber and sprint have a way bigger effect on gameplay flow and map design.

4 hours ago, EddyAOS said:

Thrust obviously augments the individual skill curve of gunfights as well.

In theory yes, but given that 343 turned up bullet magnetism to world-record levels to compensate for thrust, it is basically a zero sum game. When both people have thrust ready, individual gun battles are about as skillful as Halo gets, but if your thrust is on recharge you can't do shit because strafing is useless with so much auto aim and magnetism.

And come on, this isn't Waypoint. "Hurr, you never played the game at a high level" doesn't add anything to the discussion. 

And to get back on topic:

He also says there will be grappling hooks. This franchise is truly fucked.

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1 hour ago, Basu said:

@IcePrincess and @EddyAOS lol guys I'm aware of the thrust slide jump combo but that's a COMBO and not people using thrust itself primarily to move around the map. Thrust is mostly used as a defensive ability, this has been a fact ever since the game came out and the biggest issue with it aside from its detrimental effects on the sandbox. Chances are that even without thrust there will be some sort of slide hopping combo. Slide, clamber and sprint have a way bigger effect on gameplay flow and map design.

In theory yes, but given that 343 turned up bullet magnetism to world-record levels to compensate for thrust, it is basically a zero sum game. When both people have thrust ready, individual gun battles are about as skillful as Halo gets, but if your thrust is on recharge you can't do shit because strafing is useless with so much auto aim and magnetism.

And come on, this isn't Waypoint. "Hurr, you never played the game at a high level" doesn't add anything to the discussion. 

And to get back on topic:

He also says there will be grappling hooks. This franchise is truly fucked.

I too believe random people on twitter that get their info from the weekly /v/ "leaks".

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7 hours ago, EddyAOS said:

 This has also made the preservation of thrust a key aspect of decision making - use your thrust at a sub-optimal time and you're as good as dead.

  

Ahh yes, I can see how making a free escape button a key aspect of decision making really widens the skill gap.  

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In Halo, the ability to move effectively should not be a resource that needs to be managed.  Players should be able to move effectively at all times.  Strafing isn’t a gun and shouldn’t need to be reloaded.

 

Keep in mind, I have nothing against advanced movement.  In fact, I am in favor of including all manner of whacky ways to zip and zoom around the map.  JUST NOT AS FUCKING BASE TRAITS.

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6 hours ago, LI Mr X IL said:

Ahh yes, I can see how making a free escape button a key aspect of decision making really widens the skill gap.  

You're making thrust sound like armor lock here, and it's extremely disingenuous. In past Halo games, maps were smaller and guns had less range, as maps were not designed around sprint, so it was possible to push into open territory and still back up without being melted. In Halo 5, that is not the case, so if players want to slowly push into an open area without support from teammates - they're likely going to die. It's not that players in Halo 5 make stupid decisions and then use a "get out of jail free card," they're making the initial decisions to challenge or push completely aware of the fact that they can use thrust if they start getting teamshot. Having thrust available becomes a part of the strategy. Do you understand the difference between these two concepts?

10 hours ago, Basu said:

lol guys I'm aware of the thrust slide jump combo but that's a COMBO and not people using thrust itself primarily to move around the map.

This is a vacuous distinction. If the unique speed offered by the thrust slide cannot be achieved without thrust, then it's an inherent advantage offered by thrust. 

10 hours ago, Basu said:

 Thrust is mostly used as a defensive ability, this has been a fact ever since the game came out and the biggest issue with it aside from its detrimental effects on the sandbox.

That's not even true. Let's take a look at a few minutes of the final official competitive Halo 5 broadcast. I'll tally the different (but in certain cases, similar) uses of thrust. I'm going to count everything I can see in the POV, not just uses by the POV player. I'll distinguish uses of thrust between strafe and escape based on whether or not the player in question is attempting to reach cover versus just dodging shots. I'll put offensive rechallenges in the strafe/gunfight category, as that's more of a gunfighting usage

Gunfight: 8

Movement/Speed: 10

Escape: 7

I went to around 13:00 in the video linked above. As you can see, thrust's primary use is not to "cheese out of gunfights" as you claimed. Even in many of the cases in which it is used an escape mechanism, the utilization of thrust isn't acting to the detriment of the skill curve; for example, if an individual has just won a gunfight against an opposing player and has their shields down, they may thrust or thrust slide behind a teammate, or if the individual in question has not finished the initial gunfight, this can be incorporated into a bait and switch, without thrusts, this level of teamwork may not be as fruitful given Halo 5's low base movement speed respective to map size and gun range.

11 hours ago, Basu said:

but if your thrust is on recharge you can't do shit because strafing is useless with so much auto aim and magnetism.

Here we have yet another unsupported and erroneous claim. Ridiculous assertions such as these are the reason I questioned your own experience with the game. There's no way you could ever prove this as it's just not true; in fact, in high level octagons, *not using* thrust in gunfights is a strategy. For example, at the start of an octagon, I might just go for a crouchstrafe hoping to win the gunfight without having to use thrust, so if I do win the gunfight, when the opponent spawns and I am low shields, I can thrust to keep myself alive a bit longer and apply more damage. Not having a thrust in gunfights becomes a major problem if you were to thrust slide into an open area and an opponent gets the first couple shots. It can also be a problem if a player bases their entire strafe in an individual gunfight off of having the option to thrust (e.g. jumping into the air when neither person's shields are down), but that's simply a bad decision for which the player ought to be punished. 

 

11 hours ago, Basu said:

And come on, this isn't Waypoint. "Hurr, you never played the game at a high level" doesn't add anything to the discussion. 

>implying I'm trying to add to the discussion when I say that rather than just insult you for appearing to talk from a place of ignorance

There's a reason most pros and competitive players actively want thrust to remain in the game, and your surface level analysis doesn't change that fact. Hopefully, you deliver a meaningful reply rather than just bs your way through more dumb generalizations. 

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10 hours ago, Basu said:

@IcePrincess and @EddyAOS lol guys I'm aware of the thrust slide jump combo but that's a COMBO and not people using thrust itself primarily to move around the map. Thrust is mostly used as a defensive ability, this has been a fact ever since the game came out and the biggest issue with it aside from its detrimental effects on the sandbox. Chances are that even without thrust there will be some sort of slide hopping combo. Slide, clamber and sprint have a way bigger effect on gameplay flow and map design.

And come on, this isn't Waypoint. "Hurr, you never played the game at a high level" doesn't add anything to the discussion. 

You'd be dead wrong. Thrust can be used defensively, obviously, but it's a huge part of basic map traversal on top of thrust sliding and the like. My entire point overall however was pointing to your incorrect idea that just removing thrust from Halo 5 (to test leaked movement) makes the movement identical to Halo 5's as is. This.

23 hours ago, Basu said:

Movement is literally the same as H5? Thrust is mostly used to cheese out of gunfights and because people are garbage at decision making, not primarily as a map traversal tool. 

This set of sentences alone are just all sorts of wrong, lol. And it reeks of never playing the game. 

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14 minutes ago, EddyAOS said:

You're making thrust sound like armor lock here, and it's extremely disingenuous. In past Halo games, maps were smaller and guns had less range, as maps were not designed around sprint, so it was possible to push into open territory and still back up without being melted. In Halo 5, that is not the case, so if players want to slowly push into an open area without support from teammates - they're likely going to die. It's not that players in Halo 5 make stupid decisions and then use a "get out of jail free card," they're making the initial decisions to challenge or push completely aware of the fact that they can use thrust if they start getting teamshot. Having thrust available becomes a part of the strategy. Do you understand the difference between these two concepts?

This is a vacuous distinction. If the unique speed offered by the thrust slide cannot be achieved without thrust, then it's an inherent advantage offered by thrust. 

That's not even true. Let's take a look at a few minutes of the final official competitive Halo 5 broadcast. I'll tally the different (but in certain cases, similar) uses of thrust. I'm going to count everything I can see in the POV, not just uses by the POV player. I'll distinguish uses of thrust between strafe and escape based on whether or not the player in question is attempting to reach cover versus just dodging shots. I'll put offensive rechallenges in the strafe/gunfight category, as that's more of a gunfighting usage

Gunfight: 8

Movement/Speed: 10

Escape: 7

I went to around 13:00 in the video linked above. As you can see, thrust's primary use is not to "cheese out of gunfights" as you claimed. Even in many of the cases in which it is used an escape mechanism, the utilization of thrust isn't acting to the detriment of the skill curve; for example, if an individual has just won a gunfight against an opposing player and has their shields down, they may thrust or thrust slide behind a teammate, or if the individual in question has not finished the initial gunfight, this can be incorporated into a bait and switch, without thrusts, this level of teamwork may not be as fruitful given Halo 5's low base movement speed respective to map size and gun range.

Here we have yet another unsupported and erroneous claim. Ridiculous assertions such as these are the reason I questioned your own experience with the game. There's no way you could ever prove this as it's just not true; in fact, in high level octagons, *not using* thrust in gunfights is a strategy. For example, at the start of an octagon, I might just go for a crouchstrafe hoping to win the gunfight without having to use thrust, so if I do win the gunfight, when the opponent spawns and I am low shields, I can thrust to keep myself alive a bit longer and apply more damage. Not having a thrust in gunfights becomes a major problem if you were to thrust slide into an open area and an opponent gets the first couple shots. It can also be a problem if a player bases their entire strafe in an individual gunfight off of having the option to thrust (e.g. jumping into the air when neither person's shields are down), but that's simply a bad decision for which the player ought to be punished. 

 

>implying I'm trying to add to the discussion when I say that rather than just insult you for appearing to talk from a place of ignorance

There's a reason most pros and competitive players actively want thrust to remain in the game, and your surface level analysis doesn't change that fact. Hopefully, you deliver a meaningful reply rather than just bs your way through more dumb generalizations. 

Holy shit you are salty, thanks for the negs btw your tears are delicious. Funny how my generalizations are "dumb" but you pulling shit like "thrust being used as a get out of jail free card is no detriment to the skill gap at all" is apparently ObJeCTiVe FaCt. Dude you literally cannot shoot while thrusting how is this not a defensive ability by its very nature?

As I said, thrust itself wouldn't even be that much of a problem, it's the secondary effects it has on the game that raise issues. Mainly the absurd about of magnetism on weapons like the Sniper Rifle and as I said the escapability. Just because it's not as bad as armor lock doesn't mean it's a good thing. And your "mind games" about not thrusting during also don't mean thrust is fine and that strafing in H5 is good enough when compared to the easiness of the weapons.

If thrust was in a decently balanced Halo game I wouldn't have a problem with it. Oh and allow us to shoot while strafing ffs. Unlike sprint and clamber it actually has redeeming qualities. But the current implementation in H5 is garbage and so is the sandbox surrounding it.

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Rewind a bit, are pros advocates for keeing thrust in or are they indifferent to it? I always interpreted it as the latter, like they don't care too much either way.

Not that it necessarily matters what pros think, I'm just curious if public opinion has changed.

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@EddyAOS godly post bro. Literally exactly what I would have said had you not. To not understand that every positional play made in H5 is done KNOWING what your movement options are is just plain crazy. People make the plays they do because they KNOW what they can do in game. Its not a secondary reason. Its the primary one. The same way you peek angles in classic Halo knowing exactly what you can get away with. To discredit someone's positional skill in H5 by saying they are all braindead and just happen to have thrust to save them is literally criticizing someone for understanding and playing the game properly. Its not a sign of stupidity its a sign of in game skill. Just reminds me of all the people that are like "This kid wouldnt last in classic Halo" Just because they play H5 optimally. When in actuality those same people will simply adapt to the game the same way they did H5. Come on man.

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12 hours ago, Basu said:

 

He also says there will be grappling hooks. This franchise is truly fucked.

I will actually start bawling my eyes out if these are true

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People can do a lot of really stupid shit KNOWING that they can use armor lock too but that doesn’t mean armor lock adds the competitiveness of the game or makes it more skillful. I’m not advocating for a scrub mentality. If getting away with positioning that would have gotten you killed in older Halos because you now have thrust is the optimal way to play then by all means play that way. All I’m saying is that the optimal way to play Halo 5 Is easier and has less of a skill gap than the optimal way to play a Halo without the same mechanic. ( In a vacuum of course. There’s are a lot of factors other than thrust to compare between halos that make them more or less skillful.)

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4 minutes ago, LI Mr X IL said:

All I’m saying is that the optimal way to play Halo 5 Is easier and has less of a skill gap than the optimal way to play a Halo without the same mechanic.

Nope. Good talk tho. 

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4 hours ago, Basu said:

Holy shit you are salty, thanks for the negs btw your tears are delicious.

>negs me

>gets negged for a low quality post

>HOLY SHIT you are salty, you NEGGED me bro

Imagine being this braindead 

4 hours ago, Basu said:

 Funny how my generalizations are "dumb" but you pulling shit like "thrust being used as a get out of jail free card is no detriment to the skill gap at all" is apparently ObJeCTiVe FaCt. \

I tried to CTRL+F that supposed quote, but I couldn't find it. Strange. Why don't you actually respond to the points I made in my post and make an argument against them? All that I can conclude from your inability to form a basic argument is that there's rationale for you feeling the way that you do.

4 hours ago, Basu said:

As I said, thrust itself wouldn't even be that much of a problem, it's the secondary effects it has on the game that raise issues. Mainly the absurd about of magnetism on weapons like the Sniper Rifle and as I said the escapability.

Classic motte and bailey, changing your position from "thrust is mostly used to cheese out of gunfights and because people are garbage at decision making" after I've provided evidence to the contrary to "thrust itself wouldn't even be that much a problem." Aim assist and magnetism can be easily turned down without removing thrust. They're not mutually inclusive like sprint and larger maps.

4 hours ago, Basu said:

Just because it's not as bad as armor lock doesn't mean it's a good thing. 

Nobody ever said this

4 hours ago, Basu said:

And your "mind games" about not thrusting during also don't mean thrust is fine and that strafing in H5 is good enough when compared to the easiness of the weapons.

What?

5 hours ago, Basu said:

Dude you literally cannot shoot while thrusting how is this not a defensive ability by its very nature?

This statement is either remarkably ignorant or woefully dishonest.

Let's isolate some variables. Let's say there's an FPS in which players can at any point in time press 'X' to teleport 5 meters in front of an opposing player. The teleportation has a 0.5 second animation. Players are not able to shoot while the animation is taking place. This ability, according to your line of reason, is defensive.

Why have you decided to ignore this entire paragraph addressing your argument that thrust's primary usage is to "cheese out of gunfights"?

Quote

 

Let's take a look at a few minutes of the final official competitive Halo 5 broadcast. I'll tally the different (but in certain cases, similar) uses of thrust. I'm going to count everything I can see in the POV, not just uses by the POV player. I'll distinguish uses of thrust between strafe and escape based on whether or not the player in question is attempting to reach cover versus just dodging shots. I'll put offensive rechallenges in the strafe/gunfight category, as that's more of a gunfighting usage

Gunfight: 8

Movement/Speed: 10

Escape: 7

I went to around 13:00 in the video linked above. As you can see, thrust's primary use is not to "cheese out of gunfights" as you claimed. Even in many of the cases in which it is used an escape mechanism, the utilization of thrust isn't acting to the detriment of the skill curve; for example, if an individual has just won a gunfight against an opposing player and has their shields down, they may thrust or thrust slide behind a teammate, or if the individual in question has not finished the initial gunfight, this can be incorporated into a bait and switch, without thrusts, this level of teamwork may not be as fruitful given Halo 5's low base movement speed respective to map size and gun range.

 

 

5 hours ago, Basu said:

If thrust was in a decently balanced Halo game I wouldn't have a problem with it.

This is a huge change in what you initially argued. Are you planning to admit that what you initially said was wrong or just go on changing your position and pretending like you've made any good points?

 

I'm also curious as to why you continually abstain from addressing most of my arguments. I make it a point to respond to every aspect of your post, but you ignore most of what I write, which makes it appear as though you cannot form counterarguments or defend your own original arguments.

 

5 hours ago, Silos said:

Rewind a bit, are pros advocates for keeing thrust in or are they indifferent to it?

Every pro I've seen discuss thrust has had positive feelings toward the mechanic. It's rather difficult to be indifferent to such an import aspect of the game.

4 hours ago, My Namez BEAST said:

godly post bro.

Thanks, man :simms:

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Variable base movement speed means balancing distances on map, like between cover, two times.  Means aim assist has to be balanced two times.  Means not all map routes are available to all players, all the time.  It’s difficult enough to make a good game without the fundamental mechanics of your game always being a compromise between two extremes.  Jack of all trades, master of none.

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6 hours ago, Basu said:

If thrust was in a decently balanced Halo game I wouldn't have a problem with it. Oh and allow us to shoot while strafing ffs. Unlike sprint and clamber it actually has redeeming qualities. But the current implementation in H5 is garbage and so is the sandbox surrounding it.

Dude, you sound really salty and are poorly arguing your point, but I kind of have to agree with some of this. I think thrust would be much better as a strafing mechanic if we could shoot during it, and possibly make the thrust distance shorter to nerf it a little and discourage its defensive use even though its inevitable that it is used defensively.

6 hours ago, Silos said:

Rewind a bit, are pros advocates for keeing thrust in or are they indifferent to it? I always interpreted it as the latter, like they don't care too much either way.

Not that it necessarily matters what pros think, I'm just curious if public opinion has changed.

This is what I always interpreted it as, and personally I kind of feel the same. I feel that thrust is the least intrusive mechanic to classic halo's game design, and if 343 actually wanted to innovate on classic gameplay, they would've just added thrust, although I think innovations should be kept out of base traits and core mechanics to things like equipment in Halo 3 or map scripting or gametypes. 

 

Also, to everyone complaining about aim assist problems, none of this would be a problem if you choose to play on PC instead. I'm joking, however I think bullet magnetism would still be a problem for pc, so hopefully this isn't a problem for Inifnite.

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To quote @Hard Way from a while back with my favorite description of thrust in Halo 5: "Nah, bowling with the bumpers up isn't easier, it just redefines what a bad ball is."

The mind game skill behind thrust is about as much as the mind game skill behind the motion sensor. I can justify just about any kind of shitty mechanic with that argument.

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Thrust is only slightly less detrimental to Halo's core gameplay loop than sprint. Nade Hitmarkers probably next up.

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8 hours ago, andregr said:

Dude, you sound really salty and are poorly arguing your point, but I kind of have to agree with some of this. I think thrust would be much better as a strafing mechanic if we could shoot during it, and possibly make the thrust distance shorter to nerf it a little and discourage its defensive use even though its inevitable that it is used defensively.

I'm usually pretty chill on these forums lol, then again I rarely get personally attacked over trivial shit like that. I worded things a bit poorly I have to admit, but at the same time I thought this was all established narrative, at least around these parts. I didn't think I'd make a dude foam at the mouth by restating a few criticisms about H5's thruster that have been around for 4 years by now.

Still baffled that 343 is so adamant on keeping sprint that they'd rather remove thruster, which is way more advanced/modern than fucking sprint which every military shooter since 2007 has had.

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