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Classic Halo Esports and HCS Grassroots 2019 Discussion Thread

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if it's le thing is still being done

First Halo: H1

Favourite Halo: H3

First Competitive Halo:  HR

Least Played Halo: H4

Favourite Gun:  BR

Favourite Map: Sanc

Favourite Pro:  Snip3down

 

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16 hours ago, Frostbite XV2 said:

*Insert small novel about how H3 is trash and H4 is objectively a superior competitive title*

Also, I think Ninja's playing too much Fortnite when he should be practicing H5, thoughts? :kappa:

H5? nah, Halo Reach yes.

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Anyone know who this is?

ElTown with the retweet so im still assuming that Visal is also joining the pro team.

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21 minutes ago, Trespa5s said:

OK Tom, now you're just showing off.

 

 

CE is dumb it is just pistol shoot, shoot, shoot kill. No depth. H3 is best Halo. Get out BR’d noob. LOL. /s

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1 hour ago, TheSimms said:

Anyone know who this is?

ElTown with the retweet so im still assuming that Visal is also joining the pro team.

He’s very good. Probably not at the level of the other pros, but very good. He’s been really active in helping MCC get fixed in the Reclaimers group as well, which is probably how he got the job. He played on Darkest Hour at one time during H3.

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I used to see GregxR in Halo 2 all the time, definitely a decent addition.

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3 hours ago, thefro3po said:

I love the videos this channel puts out.
 

 

This was incredible and needed to be made.

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6 hours ago, Hard Way said:

This was incredible and needed to be made.

He definitely deserves to be a grassroots partnered content creator. The few really good content creators we have like him and Shyway should be promoted to no end by our community and 343. Content is everything to the gaming scene now. 

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12 hours ago, Hard Way said:

He’s very good. Probably not at the level of the other pros, but very good. He’s been really active in helping MCC get fixed in the Reclaimers group as well, which is probably how he got the job. He played on Darkest Hour at one time during H3.

Also played with aPG, Destin, & Aries and placed top 12 at one H3 event.

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15 hours ago, Hard Way said:

He’s very good. Probably not at the level of the other pros, but very good. He’s been really active in helping MCC get fixed in the Reclaimers group as well, which is probably how he got the job. He played on Darkest Hour at one time during H3.

The reclaimers is that testing team right? Do you know how others can get involved in that group at all?

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13 hours ago, thefro3po said:

I love the videos this channel puts out.
 

 

Isnt this guy on the score Esports? They should post this there!

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First Halo: Halo: Combat Evolved

Favorite Halo: Halo 2.  I straight up borrowed a friend's XBox for months at a time to play on his XBL account (he'd bought a computer and was playing other games a the time, so he didn't mind.)

First Competitive Halo: My first MLG event was in Halo Reach, but I competed in online BTB tournaments in Halo 3.

Least Played Halo: Halo 4.  I barely played the game at all and the majority of my time spent logged in on it was helping Ghost with Forging/Settings.

Favorite Gun: Halo Reach Grenade Launcher  (Favorite Vehicle: Gauss Warthog)

Favorite Map: Headlong

Favorite Pro: Walshy.  He was a player that tried to approach the game intelligently, a player from top during the golden age, and he knew how to trash talk properly.

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1 hour ago, TheSimms said:

The reclaimers is that testing team right? Do you know how others can get involved in that group at all?

Yeah, I'm actually in it too. We test new MCC builds via MCC Insider before they hit retail. We've also had a big hand in making sure the gametypes in matchmaking are the best they can be, settings wise.  To join, download MCC Insider, and request to join on Waypoint. I joined a long time ago and forgot the exact process, but a google search will help you out, like "how do I join MCC Insiders". Once you're on there and playing the new builds, the Reclaimers group is like the inner circle, where our feedback is directly heard by people that can make a difference. Its a nomination-based thing. I was nominated for typing up that H1 4v4 playlist blueprint about a year ago.  If you're interested and signed up for Insider, and wanna test new builds for bugs and influence matchmaking, I can try to nominate you.

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50 minutes ago, Trajan said:

Ok guys. So. Spawns in MCC Halo 3.

Let me just start by saying that I agree that the spawns feel different then they did "back in the day," both playing and watching. No arguments from me there. But there are a lot of people complaining about how the spawns "feel" without doing any remotely difficult work to look into why that is. That's what I'm hoping to change here, relying on some great work that other folks have done.

First, I don't believe "randomness" is the issue, and I find it pretty damn unlikely that 343i made any changes to the spawn code. My guess is that the differences are a result of two factors:

  1. Mechanically, I suspect the change from 30 fps to 60 fps has changed the rate at which some of the spawn-related calculations happen. Hard to know for sure without seeing the math.
  2. The second factor is that players are better than they were 10 years ago and play much faster, especially pros. Players are much quicker to move across the map and take advantages of openings. I think this one is actually the most important.

I'll explain both. First, there's a Bungie update from '08 that lays out some pretty revealing information about the spawn system here. About halfway down the page you can see a few paragraphs that walk through the technical side of what's happening during a StrongSide spawn trap clip from that year. A few key points, but first, if you only have an intuitive sense of how H3 spawns work and you've never peaked under the hood, FyreWulff did an excellent job in this article and I'll reference his numbers as well. If that's a TLDR for you, it's important to note that player positions and deaths are the primary influences over spawns, and that line-of-site, weapon fire, and grenades don't affect spawn calculations at all. It also points out that flag position (on stand vs off/pulled) influences spawns in CTF.

Regarding (1) above, Lukems mentions that one enemy player died 2-3 frames after, which does suggest that frame rate may have something to do with how the spawn calculations work (though I don't think I'd bet money on this). Again, probably not the most important factor, but it can't be ruled out. That's all I have to say about that since I don't have the math to look at and I don't want to speculate.

Regarding (2), Lukems also says that "dead teammate influences have a duration of 20 seconds." Think about how long 20 seconds is in modern pro gameplay. If a blue player kills two red players at Courtyard on The Pit, that spawn now has a -500 x 2 influence for the next two spawn cycles. These influences stack with the positions of every other player still on the map.

Here's another key point from FyreWulff: if the blue player walks across a red spawn, you all know that his position will have a negative influence on that spawn ("blocked spawn"). What you may not know is that this influence lasts for 7  seconds, even if that player moves out of the spawn zone. This is of course true for friendly players, which positively influence spawns, as well. Again, that stacks with everything else that's happening on the map. So if the blue player pushes through mauler spawn to grab the flag on the pit, his negative influence over the mauler spawn is still there while he's pulling the flag (also negatively influencing that spawn, incidentally).

At the speed of modern pro gameplay, pros are moving from one spawn zone to another very quickly, and their influences on the opposing team are stacking just as fast—especially when there are multiplayer blue players on the red side of the map (so all 8 players are influencing 3 spawn zones, in the case of The Pit). As the influences stack, the -500 influence that an individual blue player has over a red spawn becomes a smaller and smaller proportion of the overall influence on that spawn. It is in these kinds of situations where non-intuitive spawns happen

I hope it's clear from the above nuts and bolts that the spawn weight calculations can get really complex really fast in this kind of situation as kills and deaths happen and new players spawn up. The takeaway for everyone gameplay-wise is that the longer you are on your opponent's side of the map getting kills, the more uncertain things will become and the less control you will have over enemy spawns. Overslaying is a really bad idea.

Think about how all these factors interact on a small map like Heretic where you can fly from one base to the other in a few seconds. It would not surprise me if you saw negative spawn weights above -2500 in some cases, which could cause players on that team to spawn on a -1800 spawn point that has an enemy player on top of it: it's a shitty spawn, but not as shitty as the other spawns available.

To conclude, I would wager that if you went into forge and analyzed any situation in which pro players are shocked by a spawn and broke it down according to the above factors, you would be able to explain the spawn easily. At the speed of gameplay today it's no surprise that the spawns feel different, even though I would again bet money that the underlying math hasn't changed at all. There's nothing "broken" about it (though it's certainly valid to make the argument in reverse, which is to say that H3's spawn system is not optimal for the way competitive halo is played today).

Side note, but I'm kind of surprised that pros don't spend more time in forge looking at where exactly the borders of spawn zones start and how some of these values work. Seems like they'd want every little edge they could get.

 

Grenades and line of sight do affect spawns.

 

Also, are there actually three spawn zones on the MLG v8 version of The Pit? It’s been a while, but I only remember seeing two zones on each map with static spawns, and I want to say there are none when the map has dynamic spawns.

 

To be clear, I haven’t said this publicly yet, but out of all the clips that I’ve watched played on the official MLG Gametypes maps and settings in MCC, I do not notice anything different from the original MLG v8 spawns. It was only the UGC gametypes made by xAcer95x that actually had improper spawn placement, to my knowledge. 

 

-Ghost

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5 minutes ago, GH057ayame said:

Grenades and line of sight do affect spawns.

 

Also, are there actually three spawn zones on the MLG v8 version of The Pit? It’s been a while, but I only remember seeing two zones on each map with static spawns, and I want to say there are none when the map has dynamic spawns.

 

To be clear, I haven’t said this publicly yet, but out of all the clips that I’ve watched played on the official MLG Gametypes maps and settings in MCC, I do not notice anything different from the original MLG v8 spawns. It was only the UGC gametypes made by xAcer95x that actually had improper spawn placement, to my knowledge. 

 

-Ghost

Cheers Ghost. I don't have my consoles any more so I can't actually check the v8 settings—been ages since I saw them in Forge. But if there are two zones on Pit, that would make weirdness even more likely since you'd have a single zone encompassing Mauler and at least part of Flag. If there are no zones and all the spawns are dynamic, the influences are calculated at each individual point and that would be nuts too (but would make sense).

Interesting on the grenades/LoS. thought I remembered seeing something about this years ago, but I had it associated with Reach in my mind, especially after reading FyreWulff's article. The LoS influence must be pretty small relative to player positions and deaths though, since LoS spawns happen pretty often.

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1 hour ago, Trajan said:

/snip

Another factor is the actual hardware itself and how it interacts with the software.  H3 was made specifically to run on the 360, that type of optimized/specialized code running on different hardware can cause odd errors and other oddities that you wouldn't think would occur.  While the code can be 100% the same, it might not run the same way as before on a different hardware set.  I'd bet that all these things have compounded into this mess so the game doesn't determine spawns the right way.

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From what I remember, LoS did have an effect, but it was minimal compared to everything else. I would be curious to see if there's a range limit on LoS, which would explain why it's so common to spawn in someone's crosshair on Narrows, but far less common on Pit or Amp.

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