Jump to content
Cursed Lemon

Poll time: What was more competitive as a game, H2 or H3, and why

More competitive game?  

87 members have voted

  1. 1. Which was more tr00 MLG?

    • H2
    • H3
    • They're not that different, so the same
      0
    • They're different in important ways, but their strengths/shortcomings even out


Recommended Posts

well seriously, no one would think youre crazy. Halo 2's br was more inaccurate than halo3's on launch and was changed to no spread in a later patch some time in 2005. And bungie did not mention the br at all in that patch so many hypothesize it was a glitch that went under the radar.

True, let me rephrase,

 

Could you imagine telling an 06 halo player, "heads up, br bullets wont shoot straight or register half the time on lan in the next halo game. It will be an intentional design decision that Bungie wont fix, and will actually defend as a part of their vision" everyone would think you're crazy.

  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

I know there's a huge argument behind H3's BR being trash, which it is. However, the other skills that H3 offered (controlling spawns, rotating, hard to use power weapons, the little hard to due jumps, instasploding, etc), more than enough minimized the RNG in the BR spread. Otherwise Final Boss wouldn't of won the last three H3 events right? Or was that luck? I'm just saying the skill gap in rotating, controlling spawns, using grenades, and leading your shot compounds to show who's better, the argument about the BR spread can't over shadow those other controllable skills like it does. And as I recall, H2 does have the better BR, but the other things in the game: easy power weapons, crazy spawns, host on LAN being a god, all seem to even it out with H3 imo, so both games suck but are good at the same time. Reach NBNS is better than both of them imo. 

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

Otherwise Final Boss wouldn't of won the last three H3 events right?

 

Kind of a bad example given what happened with FB after the first H3 event. 

Share this post


Link to post

Kind of a bad example given what happened with FB after the first H3 event. 

I'm talking about the last three events, not the first one. And the H3 specific skills weren't nearly as developed for the first event like they were for the last ones, when the skills where actually being used to show the skill gaps potential. 

 

EDIT: Plus you gotta think, it's easy to see the problem with the BR immediately, but to learn the other skills that minimizes the BR RNG is something that takes a lot of time to learn. I'm willing to bet less than 30 people actually have been a part of the top tier skills that can truly minimize the RNG. So to the masses, the BR being a problem sticks out way more since they will likely never master the other skills enough to minimize the RNG from the BR.

Share this post


Link to post

I'm talking about the last three events, not the first one. And the H3 specific skills weren't nearly as developed for the first event like they were for the last ones, when the skills where actually being used to show the skill gaps potential. 

 

EDIT: Plus you gotta think, it's easy to see the problem with the BR immediately, but to learn the other skills that minimizes the BR RNG is something that takes a lot of time to learn. I'm willing to bet less than 30 people actually have been a part of the top tier skills that can truly minimize the RNG. So to the masses, the BR being a problem sticks out way more since they will likely never master the other skills enough to minimize the RNG from the BR.

 

Nothing in H3 outclassed the skill and design ("design") perfection of the doubleshot. Other people love the melee glitches, though I think they're bullshit. H2 also had a lot more subtle tricks than you're giving it credit for, like wall shooting. 

Share this post


Link to post

Nothing in H3 outclassed the skill and design ("design") perfection of the doubleshot. Other people love the melee glitches, though I think they're bullshit. H2 also had a lot more subtle tricks than you're giving it credit for, like wall shooting. 

dodging melees in halo 2, (and supposedly someone found out a way to parry them lmao) was the shit. 

Share this post


Link to post

Nothing in H3 outclassed the skill and design ("design") perfection of the doubleshot. Other people love the melee glitches, though I think they're bullshit. H2 also had a lot more subtle tricks than you're giving it credit for, like wall shooting. 

I agree with the double shot having the highest skill required out of all skill in both games, so off that it has a "higher skill gap" between both games. I also agree that I did leave out a lot of subtle tricks in halo 2, but I also did that with H3 as well, like ghost jumping, nobody actually did that on the reg in competitive matches. 

 

Ghost Jumping: 

 

Anyways, I was just annoyed that H3 is often thrown to the side because of the BR spread when it has other skills that are unique to it that don't even get a chance to be seen since the BR spread overshadows it and people give up on it because of that. 

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

Kind of a bad example given what happened with FB after the first H3 event.

what happened?

Share this post


Link to post

Nothing in H3 outclassed the skill and design ("design") perfection of the doubleshot. Other people love the melee glitches, though I think they're bullshit. H2 also had a lot more subtle tricks than you're giving it credit for, like wall shooting.

 

I enjoy H2 way more than H3 but I’m not sure I’d brag about the skill gap of the double shot. The skill gap in a shooter should come from the general difficulty of aiming not from having to enter a button combo that requires fighting game levels of input timing. You shouldn’t have to enter a button combo just to “outplay” an opponent in a 1v1 gunfight who you would normally just out shoot and strafe anyway but now can’t because they have a gun that practically aims for them. (I sucked at double shotting when I played H2 so maybe I’m just bias)

  • Upvote (+1) 3

Share this post


Link to post

I agree with the double shot having the highest skill required out of all skill in both games, so off that it has a "higher skill gap" between both games. I also agree that I did leave out a lot of subtle tricks in halo 2, but I also did that with H3 as well, like ghost jumping, nobody actually did that on the reg in competitive matches. 

 

Ghost Jumping: 

 

Anyways, I was just annoyed that H3 is often thrown to the side because of the BR spread when it has other skills that are unique to it that don't even get a chance to be seen since the BR spread overshadows it and people give up on it because of that. 

halo 2 had similar things. it's just there weren't any maps to exploit it. ghost jumping is only useful on halo3 on onslaught to get to top mid. yeah you can do bottom shotgun to barrels, but you never need to do that in a 4v4. there are some good hard jumps for both games, it's just not worth the time investing in them when you could be improving your shot or button glitches

 

 

 

^check out this guy's channel for more halo 2 jump vids. 

 

also the i'm 99% sure the jump you showed isn't a ghost jump at all lol. the jump is possible because for walls at that angle you can walk a little and jump off normally after you uncrouch. you can do bottom shotgun to top shotgun but it takes two ghost jumps and it's in some jumping montage i will probably never find. 

 

However, ghost jumping and the like should 100% return. just make it a mechanic on forge map pieces. like "should this edge be ghost jumpable" then select y/n. 

  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

I enjoy H2 way more than H3 but I’m not sure I’d brag about the skill gap of the double shot. The skill gap in a shooter should come from the general difficulty of aiming not from having to enter a button combo that requires fighting game levels of input timing. You shouldn’t have to enter a button combo just to “outplay” an opponent in a 1v1 gunfight who you would normally just out shoot and strafe anyway but now can’t because they have a gun that practically aims for them. (I sucked at double shotting when I played H2 so maybe I’m just bias)

 

Beggars can't be choosers when it comes to Halo that isn't CE. 

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

halo 2 had similar things. it's just there weren't any maps to exploit it. ghost jumping is only useful on halo3 on onslaught to get to top mid. yeah you can do bottom shotgun to barrels, but you never need to do that in a 4v4. there are some good hard jumps for both games, it's just not worth the time investing in them when you could be improving your shot or button glitches

 

also the i'm 99% sure the jump you showed isn't a ghost jump at all lol. the jump is possible because for walls at that angle you can walk a little and jump off normally after you uncrouch. you can do bottom shotgun to top shotgun but it takes two ghost jumps and it's in some jumping montage i will probably never find. 

 

However, ghost jumping and the like should 100% return. just make it a mechanic on forge map pieces. like "should this edge be ghost jumpable" then select y/n. 

I don't think the, "it's just not worth investing the time into ghost jumping" statement is accurate. I'm pretty sure there were a handful of people that went all out on it and could only do it like 30% of the time, even after going hard on it. If someone could use it to immediately get up top, they would catch people off guard and get map control quicker, that would be worth it imo to master the technique. Likewise, when ppl invest time into mastering the double shot on h2, hypothetically someone could do it all game if they wanted, but nobody was actually that good to master it like that. Both skills offer great rewards, but both skills have never been mastered enough to showcase how powerful they could actually be. 

 

If that video I showed wasn't a ghost jump, then here are some 100%

 

I had no idea ghost jumps were in h2, thanks for linking this. I'm gonna check them out. 

Share this post


Link to post

Button combos are sick, execution tests have always been a part of video games considering they're both mental and physical so i dont get why everybody is hating on melee glitches / double shots

Share this post


Link to post

Button combos are sick, execution tests have always been a part of video games considering they're both mental and physical so i dont get why everybody is hating on melee glitches / double shots

Melee glitches are cool but this is H2 we're talking about. BXR/BXB isn't the least bit skillful

Share this post


Link to post

what button combo would ever be considered skillful when we're all just gonna boil it down to "pressing a few buttons in a sequence isnt hard"

Share this post


Link to post

I know CE isn't part of the pole but I feel like this old school gif sums things up quite nicely. 

 

CxkfbBE.gif

  • Upvote (+1) 4

Share this post


Link to post

Button combos are sick, execution tests have always been a part of video games considering they're both mental and physical so i dont get why everybody is hating on melee glitches / double shots

you already answered your own question “glitches”

Look at Fortnite double pump was skillful and gave individual empowerment, but was removed because it was a glitch/exploit.

When unintended features end up in a game and are “abused” it frustrates people. It doesn’t matter to most if it takes “skill” to do, the fact remains is it was an unintended feature and to most should be removed. And sometimes it could frustrate those in competitive communities, since if you don’t use the glitch/exploits, then you’re putting yourself at a disadvantage. Phurion is one of the best h2 players and if you don’t know how to use The glitches you’ll lose majority battles against him. And this can frustrate a player greatly by the fact an exploit is what’s used to win against him.

Another example is Fortnites double pump was also highly needed to win. If you didn’t double pump yourself you’re putting yourself at a disadvantage.

 

Exploits and glitches aren’t favored by many and these are the reasons. There’s many of us who could care less since it takes “skill”.

  • Downvote (-1) 4

Share this post


Link to post

you already answered your own question “glitches”

Look at Fortnite double pump was skillful and gave individual empowerment, but was removed because it was a glitch/exploit.

When unintended features end up in a game and are “abused” it frustrates people. It doesn’t matter to most if it takes “skill” to do, the fact remains is it was an unintended feature and to most should be removed. And sometimes it could frustrate those in competitive communities, since if you don’t use the glitch/exploits, then you’re putting yourself at a disadvantage. Phurion is one of the best h2 players and if you don’t know how to use The glitches you’ll lose majority battles against him. And this can frustrate a player greatly by the fact an exploit is what’s used to win against him.

Another example is Fortnites double pump was also highly needed to win. If you didn’t double pump yourself you’re putting yourself at a disadvantage.

 

Exploits and glitches aren’t favored by many and these are the reasons. There’s many of us who could care less since it takes “skill”.

 

 

I wouldn't say majority want things like that removed. 

Share this post


Link to post

you already answered your own question “glitches”

Look at Fortnite double pump was skillful and gave individual empowerment, but was removed because it was a glitch/exploit.

When unintended features end up in a game and are “abused” it frustrates people. It doesn’t matter to most if it takes “skill” to do, the fact remains is it was an unintended feature and to most should be removed. And sometimes it could frustrate those in competitive communities, since if you don’t use the glitch/exploits, then you’re putting yourself at a disadvantage. Phurion is one of the best h2 players and if you don’t know how to use The glitches you’ll lose majority battles against him. And this can frustrate a player greatly by the fact an exploit is what’s used to win against him.

Another example is Fortnites double pump was also highly needed to win. If you didn’t double pump yourself you’re putting yourself at a disadvantage.

 

Exploits and glitches aren’t favored by many and these are the reasons. There’s many of us who could care less since it takes “skill”.

Man why are you even here. Every day I see you post things advocating for less competitive merit. People rebut your points and you still seem to just forget all of them and learn nothing.

 

What you posted is scrub mentality: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win

 

 

Anyway, double pump was unwanted because it broke balance AFAIK. Not everyone has the dual shotguns and fortnite can be very random in weapons you collect so it breaks the game. Also double pump requires zero skill to pull off. There's no timing. There's minimal aim skill required with a shotgun. It's just press the keys as fast as you can.

 

In Halo 2 MLG EVERYONE has the BR and EVERYONE can double shot if they are good at it. But getting the timing correct while aiming a precision weapon and keeping up with the strafe is incredibly difficult. Thus the double shot is far more acceptable. Of course I would prefer aim skill in a shooter but since Halo 2 is so easy to aim the combos really save it from being a total joke compared to CE.

  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

The argument that glitches should be removed just because they're glitches is literally a genetic fallacy.   Thankfully people like id software were smarter than that.  The one and only difference between a glitch and a feature is whether it was intentional or not.  Accidental does not inherently mean bad.

 

If the developers intended for you to go outside the map and shoot through walls it wouldn't somehow make it less bullshit.

Likewise strafejumping isn't somehow a bad thing just because it wasn't originally planned.

 

That said I don't really like button combos either, at least not ones based around shooting instead of melee like BXR, because it's just completely unintuitive for an FPS.  Unless you're awkwardly using your index finger to push the buttons you have to stop aiming entirely and take your thumb off the joystick to pull off BXR, Quad-Shot, etc. and hope that the enemy walks into your crosshair and/or that you can manage to use strafe to aim.  Fighting games are different because they're no aiming involved and all of your digits are free to press whatever buttons you want.  Something like BXR would make far more sense if it was just pressing the right trigger at very specific firing animation frames.

 

Double Pump was removed because it wasn't really that skillful (it's literally just pressing the weapon switch button) and ended up invalidating the entire sandbox.  Why bother lining up Sniper shots when you can just rapidly spam the one-hit-kill cannon?

  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

Double pump is like the noob combo. Shoot, switch, shoot. Brainless with zero penalty. Doubleshot you gotta aim, fire, tap XX in perfect timing, while still aiming shoot again. If you mess up the timing you get stuck in an animation causing you to lose the fight every time.

 

Imagine thinking that the noob combo has more competitive merit than doubleshot just because the developers intended it.

 

Nonsense.

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.