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Halo Infinite Discussion

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15 hours ago, Boyo said:

Wat up Fuad Shot!  Welcome to the community.  What’s your favorite Halo game?  

Halo Wars 2. And yours?

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2 hours ago, Shekkles said:

Who was it here that posted the reason why Halo 5 felt perpetually sweaty was because you had to press 17 buttons just to move around the map, let alone fight in it?

That person was dead on.

I remember saying Halo 5 controls like a battleship 

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13 hours ago, Botheredhat360 said:

What the fuck is this shield. Such a dumb piece of equipment, one way shooting. 

A far less offensive version of the 0 way shooting introduced by the bubble shield. The drop shield probably has no place in ranked modes, but will probably lead to some fun encounters in casual modes and custom games. 

12 hours ago, xSociety said:

What's good for us is what's good for casuals. They just need to play in their skill bracket. 

Casuals might think they know what they want but I doubt they'd actually enjoy the game if they got their way. 

It’s pretty silly  to argue casuals simply don’t know what they want. Yeah MM would put them in their skill bracket, but if they fundamentally don’t enjoy ranked play because of the weapons or the settings, then they won’t be contributing to the skill distribution. 


They don’t know the details of what makes a deep, nuanced competitive experience, but they also don’t care.  they do know whether they are having fun or not.

I go on Reddit and see people saying stuff like “I love the AR now, it’s finally a viable alternative to precision weapons “ and my first instinct is to blow my brains out, because that’s fucking stupid. But these guys know they like getting random headshots across the map with an AR more than they like getting into pistol/BR duels.
 

At this point, They’ve experienced both sides of the fence and have made their choice. that’s why I’ve given up on the dream of having settings be the same across the board. 
 

9 hours ago, Twis7ed said:

Infinite is a weaker version of Halo 5 though. The individual has less potential...at the moment. That's literally the opposite of what everyone has wanted. Way weaker pistol, sameish AR. Far less movement skill. Worse maps (IMO). The only difference between the two is a weaker sprint and no thrust/ ground pound. Regardless, all of it adds up to individuals having less impact which is what you typically look at to measure a skillgap. As it stands, Halo Infinite has probably the weakest individual player in the entire series if pistol starts stay, which I actually think will happen. And this is coming from someone who played Halo 5 all of 2 months before I said it sucks. 

Infinite is the most overhyped 343 project yet. Call me a hater or downer or whatever lol. Infinite is the exact plasticky, bloomy, run and gun on COD maps, shoot peas across the map we expected. Most importantly, go play Halo 1/2/3 and go straight to a 343 game. They aren't Halos and Infinite still isn't Halo. Not even the same planet in terms of feel or gameplay. 

Don’t you think it’s early to compare a fully released game to an alpha build? Sure, Based on the weapons in the tech preview, the individual has less potential- but we don’t even know what other guns are in the game, or what starting load out will be.

It makes no sense to say, Infinite is a weaker H5 because of the AR vs the sidekick when we don’t even know if either of those guns will be starting weapons in ranked play. Beyond that, If you take the AR out of the ranked playlist, the individual would be more empowered in this game than in any other since CE. I’m no fan of the sidekick, but it’s min TTK is half a second fast than the BR. The counts for something.

Also, this already requires more movement skill than H5, because the get out of jail free cards have been nerfed or removed 

Also, let’s not pretend vanilla H2 & H3 werent absolute dog shit if You wanna talk about the player being weak individually. It took playlist updates and custom settings to make those games feel right. Don’t you remember spawning with a pistol that took 11shots to kill, trying to fight back against a BR? 

 

 

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It seems pretty obvious that ranked will be BR starts. I just hope there is also ranked BTB then. I don't want viable precision starts to be boxed into a single HCS experience.

I'm sure that AR's won't be in ranked play, but it remains to be seen if the BR will really be competitive. Still seems like it'll be a teamshot-fest, but still has potential to be the better 343 game I guess? I just don't know if that would be enough for me to play more than casually in ranked.

I wish 343 were committed to their idea from Halo 5 of a universal starting loadout with their new emphasis on more difficult gunplay. Seems like a huge missed opportunity to have a difficult but effective magnum. Instead we get a sidearm and a BR which will have an optimal kill time not too far from the average.

Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe the strafe will be good enough to prolong engagements with the BR. Hard to say with the limited amount of PVP we got and without BR starts.

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1 hour ago, RatherSilentMr said:

You are not convincing anyone.  We can see through your bullshit. 

According to halowaypoint.com the last time I played H5 was April 2017. I'm not on any side in your Halo war.

1 hour ago, xSociety said:

You see, each one of those 17 button presses just adds to the skillgap, nay, it multiples the skillgap! 

So in classic, boring, strafe only Halo the skillgap is exactly 1. Halo 5's skillgap on the other hand is 1 to the 17th power! 

 

Wait... fuck!

There's plenty of examples of deep movement systems that just use directions, jump, and your aim, but TeamBeyond would probably hate it even more than the Reddit casuals would if 343 tried anything to add movement skill.

1 hour ago, Shekkles said:

I disagree with this as thruster back adds a huge level of randomness to where a player will be for the duration of the duel. Yes, I agree the mind games is itself a skill, but predicting high-tier players thrust-pack direction is impossible. Because top tier players will try their best to not fall into predictable patterns. Randomness is not good for competitive games, consistency is more important. With normal strafe, the direction is still random in the context of a duel, but the difference is that you know the exact distance and speed they can move in any direction, compensating accordingly. There is still skill involved, but less randomness because there is no ability to just flash your entire being in a random direction.

Additionally, to counter this the aim assist was turned up to 11, probably because in playtesting they found the average player couldn't hit thrusting people consistently enough. I'm not talking bad players either, I'm talking average players who are by definition not particularly bad, but not particularly good either.

Thrust was a "miss your next shot" card that everyone got to play once per 1v1, that's all. "Huge level of randomness?" Don't be goofy. Heavy aim notwithstanding it was not difficult to get your crosshair back on target regardless of which direction they went. Plus, the thruster (thrustee?) couldn't shoot mid-thrust, so you had time to react. Does anyone have frame data on how long the thrust animation is? The average human reaction time is around 250ms. I would guess that the thrust is about that long, maybe longer. Meanwhile, in a game with a "good" strafe like Overwatch, the enemy can start/stop/change directions instantly, limited only by how fast they press buttons. Personally, I think the thrust guy is less random.

...Of course, aim assist takes 0ms to react to a direction change, so the joke's on me and nothing matters at all. Aim assist is a problem in all Halos. It feels stronger in MCC 2/3/Reach than it did in H5 to me, but maybe that's the heavy aim talking.

1 hour ago, Shekkles said:

"I'm not confident enough in my arguments' merits, so I'm going to throw some insults in as an attempt to drop the rationality of the responses."

Forgive me, moderator, but he was rude first. And he was mad.

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1 hour ago, hhhh said:

Thrust was a "miss your next shot" card that everyone got to play once per 1v1, that's all. "Huge level of randomness?" Don't be goofy. Heavy aim notwithstanding it was not difficult to get your crosshair back on target regardless of which direction they went. Plus, the thruster (thrustee?) couldn't shoot mid-thrust, so you had time to react. Does anyone have frame data on how long the thrust animation is? The average human reaction time is around 250ms. I would guess that the thrust is about that long, maybe longer. Meanwhile, in a game with a "good" strafe like Overwatch, the enemy can start/stop/change directions instantly, limited only by how fast they press buttons. Personally, I think the thrust guy is less random.

I can understand where you're coming from.

1 hour ago, hhhh said:

Aim assist is a problem in all Halos. It feels stronger in MCC 2/3/Reach than it did in H5 to me, but maybe that's the heavy aim talking.

It has it's moments that's for sure (Halo 5 sniper anyone?). It could definitely do with less, but it will always be a casual shooter.

1 hour ago, hhhh said:

Forgive me, moderator, but he was rude first. And he was mad.

Well I can't disagree there...

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2 hours ago, OldBlu said:

It seems pretty obvious that ranked will be BR starts. I just hope there is also ranked BTB then. I don't want viable precision starts to be boxed into a single HCS experience.

I'm sure that AR's won't be in ranked play, but it remains to be seen if the BR will really be competitive. Still seems like it'll be a teamshot-fest, but still has potential to be the better 343 game I guess? I just don't know if that would be enough for me to play more than casually in ranked.

I wish 343 were committed to their idea from Halo 5 of a universal starting loadout with their new emphasis on more difficult gunplay. Seems like a huge missed opportunity to have a difficult but effective magnum. Instead we get a sidearm and a BR which will have an optimal kill time not too far from the average.

Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe the strafe will be good enough to prolong engagements with the BR. Hard to say with the limited amount of PVP we got and without BR starts.

I think The universal load out dream is dead. Casuals won’t accept more difficult precision gunplay AND low-dps autos at the same time. I wish things were different, but it is what it is. 
 

i hope BR starts in ranked aren’t a thing, but if they are the sidekick needs to be there too, with a 20 shot magazine. 
 

The best thing they could do bring back the CE pistol in all of its glory- not that monstrosity from H5. That’s a pipe dream though.

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10 hours ago, Reamis25 said:

If it gets a RRR buff it’ll be just like the h5 magnum and just because it’s bullet mag is lower hardly means a thing. People want you to change your starting weapon and not feel like they’re doing something wrong. 

Tf you on about man? You add like 10 meters RRR to it and it's still half the RRR of the h5 magnum, requiring more shots to kill with far less aim assist to boot. And it seems that zooming with unscoped weapons doesn't increase the RRR iirc. They're really not that comparable other than fitting into the aesthetic category of "pistol" .

6 hours ago, Shekkles said:

Who was it here that posted the reason why Halo 5 felt perpetually sweaty was because you had to press 17 buttons just to move around the map, let alone fight in it?

That person was dead on.

Most of us lol.  You cannot play H5 optimally without clawing or having paddles. There are literally too many buttons needed for combat they don't all fit on the triggers, bumpers and sticks.  More arthritis =\= more skill or more fun

3 hours ago, Mhunterjr said:

 

Don’t you think it’s early to compare a fully released game to an alpha build? Sure, Based on the weapons in the tech preview, the individual has less potential- but we don’t even know what other guns are in the game, or what starting load out will be.

But this game isn't great right now in a tech preview of a 2 month old build don't you know that means it's going to suck when it launches?  What's wrong with you?  How could you possibly think this game that mostly needs tweaks to it's weapons has any chance of being good?  Why would you bother giving feedback and having any level of positivity about what the game could be 3 months from now? Don't you know it's a lost cause? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU!! Are you ok?  Blink twice if 343 is holding you against your will!!

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43 minutes ago, Cursed Lemon said:

I think that person was "everyone".

Heh.

Except hhhh and probably IcePrince

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5 hours ago, Fuadiks said:

Halo Wars 2. And yours?

Halo 2 all the way.  Do you have any special memories from playing Halo, God Fuadder?  I won my first 360 from a H2 tourney.  The final match was on Lockout.  I’ll never forget the look of shock and fear on my opponents face after that first no scope (which allowed me to take his shotgun and secure the win).  

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3 hours ago, hhhh said:

Forgive me, moderator, but he was rude first. And he was mad.

You think I was mad? That's pretty funny. I don't get mad about video games dude. I just like poking fun of terrible ideas and opinions on them. Was I rude first? Idk I'd have to go check but I guess I don't care if I was, your ideas were still stupid af. 

I don't think your opinion that Halo 5 takes so much skill because of thruster can really hold up considering you haven't even played Halo 5 since 2017 anyway. 

Also, I love how many assumptions you make about "TeamBeyond" not being able to handle other games with movement skill. Son, I was playing Tribes at a LAN center before you went down your first kiddie slide. 

In all seriousness though, movement skill is more than just fancy movement by itself. Halo 5 had one of the easiest BRs of all time, playing a game without thrust is "Perfect" city. So adding one button that is a free miss from the enemy is not adding much movement skill, it's cheap and lazy and the devs should be ashamed. I wonder why they took it out for Infinite?

If they couldn't add thrust without making it an Overwatch-type recharge ability they shouldn't have added it at all. Ability cooldowns do not belong in Halo. 

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1 hour ago, Apoll0 said:

And it seems that zooming with unscoped weapons doesn't increase the RRR iirc

I can confirm it does. I recorded some tests in the Academy to test out aim assist with the Sidekick and BR.

A lot of the footage is unfortunately garbage because the sound is all out of sync (think I set the bitrate too high for this ageing hard drive) but I'm considering doing a video with commentary if I can find the time.

But yes, zooming in with Sidekick does increase the RRR which increases the strength of the aim assist.

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23 minutes ago, Pyroteq said:

I can confirm it does. I recorded some tests in the Academy to test out aim assist with the Sidekick and BR.

A lot of the footage is unfortunately garbage because the sound is all out of sync (think I set the bitrate too high for this ageing hard drive) but I'm considering doing a video with commentary if I can find the time.

But yes, zooming in with Sidekick does increase the RRR which increases the strength of the aim assist.

Please do I would like to see that even if the sound is f'd.  I really wanted the academy to have an unlimited time option to screw around.  I'm sure retail will. Maybe next flight

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Splitgate is definitely a better halo game than infinite currently. The splitgate Carbine would be a dream starting weapon in Halo. 

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13 hours ago, Reamis25 said:

After the update the average match is nothing but pistols. Y’all don’t even play h5 so how would y’all know they’re wrong? I do and guess what even social all it is, is people using the pistol and rarely pick anything else. lol I only pick up the LR because of the 4sk and 3sk potential. Actually read more than one post on Reddit and you’ll realize what they want. And deep down they’re tired of the utility in halo 

*Game has an infinitely easier to aim auto with a scope that gets perfect kills in 0.15 seconds more than the utility weapon* "Oh wow this game is such a pistol fest nobody picks anything else up"

These people are literally never gonna be satisfied until their dumb training wheels automatic gun shoots tank rounds and every precision weapon takes 2 hours to kill. It's beyond fucktarded to give into demands like these, it's like doubling movement speed because people who play on 50 FOV think your game "feels slow". 

Not that any of this even matters, considering there'll be significant divergence between comp and social settings this time around. 

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14 hours ago, Pyroteq said:

 

 

Ugh. Just now reading the comments on that sidekick video. I'm in physical pain.

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My biggest issue with the flight was how often I had to reload most weapons, especially the starters. Don't get me wrong, the delta between perfect and average killtimes is nice, but not when it feels like 1v2s or more are impossible. Further exaggerated by the weird aiming. Granted, the reloads are extremely fast anyways, but still.

I'd rather the magazine sizes be big enough to reliably kill at least 2 targets before reloading. Preferably I would rather make the guns even more powerful and speed up the existing perfect and average killtimes. This is to get more bang for my buck out of the existing mag sizes instead of just buffing the ammo capacity.

Otherwise as is, with the current killtimes and limited mag capacity across the board (orher than namely the BR), I can foresee teamshot and collapsing being meta again like H5. Despite the shooting skillgap looking good enough in Infinite to create a reasonable delta between perfect and average killtimes.

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7 hours ago, PolyG said:

I remember saying Halo 5 controls like a battleship 

Whoops quoted wrong post

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14 hours ago, Reamis25 said:

After the update the average match is nothing but pistols. Y’all don’t even play h5 so how would y’all know they’re wrong? I do and guess what even social all it is, is people using the pistol and rarely pick anything else. lol I only pick up the LR because of the 4sk and 3sk potential. Actually read more than one post on Reddit and you’ll realize what they want. And deep down they’re tired of the utility in halo 

Halo 5 being so Pistol dominant is because the H5 weapon sandbox design is so abysmally awful, so thoroughly botched, so backwards in its design that it convinced waypoint and reddit it was somehow the best weapon sandbox Halo ever had because EvErY wEaPoN wAs UsEfuL.

To be clear, most weapons if not all weapona being at least useful is a baseline for a decent weapon sandbox, but it's hardly the only relevant factor. 

Sandbox interaction is equally important, and H5s sandbox was filled with weapons that were easy to use and absurdly leathal to boot at the same time. On top of this many weapons ended up sharing the same role within the sandbox. Alot of overlap. Two shotguns. Three snipes. 5 or more explosice launchers that just obliterate players. To many weapons you cant place on the same map as one another either due to role overlap or sheer cumulative lethality leading to steamrolls.

Halo 5 became pistol heavy after the update because the H5 weapon sandbox couldn't sustain more than an average of 2.8 major map pick ups (tier 2, tier 3s and power ups) per map. 

So on average, and if you were lucky enough to get a map with more than an OS/Camo and a power weapon - you had two power weapons for 8 players, which were typically on 120 - 180 timer, In a sandbox driven shooter. that's a bloody joke. 

That's why H5 is pistol heavy. There's fuck all on the maps to pick up compared to CE, 2, 3 and Reach. 

Infinite looks to have improved that a fair bit. Glad they got there in the end.

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10 minutes ago, Kell Of Scots said:

Sandbox interaction is equally important

What do you mean by this?  

11 minutes ago, Kell Of Scots said:

Glad they got there in the end.

Where’s that? 

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1 hour ago, Apoll0 said:

Please do I would like to see that even if the sound is f'd.  I really wanted the academy to have an unlimited time option to screw around.  I'm sure retail will. Maybe next flight

Ok, it's a pretty crap video captured on Xbox One with dropped frames all over the place, but I hope it's clear enough. The last part of the video I was testing the aim assist using just the movement to see how much your camera would lock onto a target. Unfortunately only thought to test this with the BR.

I tested the strength of the aim assist on the AR, BR and the pistol. I tried to get different ranges as it seems the aim assist drops off over distance depending on the weapons effective range.

Eg, the BR aim assist is a lot stronger than the sidekick aim assist at the same range and at a certain point the sidekick aim assist either disappears completely or it becomes almost non-existent.

It's not the most scientific test obviously because I was trying to rush through trying at many things as I could in the limited time I had to play during the flight.

Obviously a 30FPS video doesn't really do it justice, it's more something you feel. Basically the BR aim assist feels stronger than the AR and the AR feels stronger than the pistol. The pistol aim assist drops off very rapidly.

This sounds like a good thing, but IMO it's really not. It means the AR will become even more dominant over precision weapons (or at least the pistol) because it's so much more forgiving AND the AR has better range and stronger aim assist.

I've got autoaim footage as well, I won't promise anything but I'll see if I can find time to upload that as well unless someone already has a good video up. I haven't seen anyone do an aim assist demonstration.

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19 minutes ago, Boyo said:

What do you mean by this?  

Where’s that? 

You have sandbox elements.... and they interact. Instead of a map having a sniper and OS, a map has 2 Snipers, 2 shotguns, Rockets, OS, Camo, 2 brute shots, 2 needlers. Lots to pick up, so lots of weapons end up interacting. Lots of unique engagements. 

 

Map picks aren't excessively lethal for their ease of use, from what we've seen, for the most part.

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Hot take. Don't snip off my eyelids-

Movement mechanics are an extremely artificial and cheap way to add a layer of skill to a game. Skill should be added organically by the mechanics absolutely needed to make your game work. If you were to remove the movement mechanics from a game like quake or h5, it won't break it's fundamental design, just make it considerably less skillful. This is a problem. Players should not be forced to interact with meaningless mechanics just to make your game take skill. 

It is exceedingly easy to design a game mechanically demanding. You can do it, I can probably do it. A lobotimised eel can do it. But to think up a game that is mentally taxing- that is not easy in the least.

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