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On 7/9/2021 at 12:12 AM, TiberiusAudley said:

That's a good point from a clarity perspective, but if RoF goes up as heat goes up, that means the heat generation accelerates, which also creates a clarity issue.  Hard to tell exactly how long you can hold down the trigger vs pulse firing without overheating and being unable to fire at all.

I think that'd be nice actually: you'd be taking a risk keeping the gun at a very high heat level, as you might not have enough heat to finish a kill if you don't pay attention, but you potentially kill much faster. You'd get a feel for it with practice. 

 

Also, red is the by far the angrier color, hence, it deals more damage.

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It's pointless to claim alt fires are good or bad in general, just like a charged shot or passive weapon trait isn't good or bad in general. It's just another tool for creating fun weapons.

Personally, I'm partial to alt fires that help you set up kills without being lethal themselves, while having an opportunity cost of lethality. Such as movement options or physics based abilities that cost ammo or time you could be shooting. In the end it's about the specifics of the weapon though, and a lot of things can work.

20 hours ago, TiberiusAudley said:

Then remove binoculars and just have non-scoped weapons toggle fire modes via scope button.

Why would you want a "toggle" instead of "fire secondary"? Two button presses where one would do. 

Also, do you actually prefer aim on right stick? I like having it on LT and would swap grenade/scope if possible on MCC. Pressing LT doesn't interfer with aiming with the joystick.

Edit: I guess I can: https://www.windowscentral.com/how-remap-xbox-one-controller-buttons-windows-10

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8 hours ago, Hemlax said:

Yeah you picked the best the Bungie weapon and the best 343 weapon.

exactly

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11 hours ago, MrGreenWithAGun said:

What is the design purpose for an alt fire feature

To make combat more interesting by giving the player more choices that are not weighed down too heavily with risk/reward.  An alt-fire doesn’t force the player to choose between moving at full speed and firing at full accuracy like Sprint and ADS do.  It’s simply another function that can be activated without disabling some arbitrary base ability.  One of the three golden vertices’ brother is sleeping on the couch for a while.  

 

11 hours ago, MrGreenWithAGun said:

What is the game play purpose for any weapon to have alt fire from the player’s perspective and expectations?

It allows for more creative problem solving.  The biggest gain in functionality is seen when weapons move from one function to two.  A lone function is arbitrary in a sense.  Two functions that can work together toward a common goal not only show that the weapon has an intended purpose but teaches the player what it is.  

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16 hours ago, Apoll0 said:

If you make an alt-fire that is actually unique compared to the base weapon, its probably worth just making it a separate weapon entirely.  I prefer the simple "dumb" alt-fires like the pro pipe triggered vs bounced explosion, or the light rifle slower, but more powerful, 3sk when scoped.  its the same basic functionality of the weapon but extends its usefulness a bit, and switching between them flows very well.  

That’s not an alt-fire so much as a control scheme aberration that needed to be addressed for accessibility reasons.  To remotely detonate the pro pipe projectile, the user needs to hold then release the trigger.  If the trigger was tapped with only that rule in place, the user would suicide himself as the projectile would detonate the moment it left the barrel.  

What do you think of the pro pipe being able to alt-fire a similar projectile that, upon trigger release, teleports the user to the projectile’s location instead of detonating it?  Alt-fire to gain a good firing position.  Fire to kill enemy.  

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9 hours ago, Hemlax said:

overpowered piece of shit like the Boltshot

What do you think about a Boltshot with a 3sk (0.9s) primary fire, same as the scoped light rifle, and an alt-fire that charges then launches a single 1sk projectile a short distance before it disappears?  A strong close-medium range precision weapon.  

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6 hours ago, potetr said:

Why would you want a "toggle" instead of "fire secondary"? Two button presses where one would do. 

The weapons I employ a toggle on are battery-operated snipers, like the Beam Rifle and Radiation Ray.  Scope is always LT but X toggles RT between two functions.  Also, the Plasma Detonator uses X to change the function of both RT and LT (detonator mode is semi-auto/detonate and launcher mode is charge-then-fire/scope).  

 

6 hours ago, potetr said:

Also, do you actually prefer aim on right stick? I like having it on LT and would swap grenade/scope if possible on MCC. Pressing LT doesn't interfer with aiming with the joystick.

Scope is on LT but sniper weapons with variable zoom scopes use ‘R3 while scoped’ to toggle the magnification level.  R3 is melee.  

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36 minutes ago, Boyo said:

What do you think about a Boltshot with a 3sk (0.9s) primary fire, same as the scoped light rifle, and an alt-fire that charges then launches a single 1sk projectile a short distance before it disappears?  A strong close-medium range precision weapon.  

That would need to be a power weapon honestly. 

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39 minutes ago, Hemlax said:

That would need to be a power weapon honestly. 

Keep in mind, the utility is a 4sk (0.9s), the shotgun fires an accurate center slug, the sword can also activate speedboost, and the hammer can pull a nearby objective to the weapon to be carried like a speedflag.  Everything is more powerful in an alt-fire sandbox.  

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Personally would use the three buttons differently for standard weapons based on their functions.

Human and Covenant precision weapons would reload, scope, and fire. Human autos would reload, activate a flashlight that can blind you when you're up close, and fire. Covenant energy weapons would empty their heat storage, toggle between accurate shots and spammy shots, and fire. Needler and Spiker would reload, but the scope button would instead fire a surplus of the ammo similar to Halo 4's Boltshot.

Forerunner guns could use the scope as a way of doing damage differently. Light rifle would basically function like it did in H5. Boltshot would fire two tracking shots unscoped, but uses the same two shots like a high speed fireball when scoped. Suppressor would fire like it did in H4 unscoped, but basically becomes the sentinel beam when scoped.

Thoughts?

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7 minutes ago, S0UL FLAME said:

Suppressor would fire like it did in H4 unscoped, but basically becomes the sentinel beam when scoped.

Or, if you didn’t want to give it a scope, you employ reverse-bloom so it starts out with a large reticle firing inaccurate projectiles but shrinks and becomes more accurate with sustained fire.  I would prefer to put that mechanic on a battery-operated weapon though so it’s a race to accuracy before overheat.  

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14 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Keep in mind, the utility is a 4sk (0.9s), the shotgun fires an accurate center slug, the sword can also activate speedboost, and the hammer can pull a nearby objective to the weapon to carried like a speedflag.  Everything is more powerful in an alt-fire sandbox.  

Could be interesting tool but it would definitely needed to be striped down of the ability to hold the charge.

Still not sure how it would fit the current weapon sandbox.

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15 minutes ago, Hemlax said:

Could be interesting tool but it would definitely needed to be striped down of the ability to hold the charge.

The Boltshot wouldn’t be able to hold a charged shot indefinitely like the Plasma Pistol.  Here’s the pistols if you’re interested:  

 

Magnum 

RT - fire ([email protected] or 7 bodyshots kill in 1.8s) 

LT - scope (2x) 

X - reload (12 round magazine) 

 

Plasma Pistol 

RT - primary fire (7 bodyshots kill) 

LT - charge alt-fire 

LT+RT - alt-fire (overcharge-shot deshields infantry and stuns vehicles) 

X - toggle firemode 

RT2 - primary fire 

LT2 -  plasma shield 

LT2+RT2 - primary fire through hole in plasma shield 

 

Mauler 

RT - fire (volley of short range projectiles, 2 full volleys kill)

LT - alt-fire (rapidly dropping explosive round, 2 direct impacts kill) 

X - reload (primary fire costs one round, alt-fire costs two of the five round mag)

 

Boltshot 

RT - primary fire ([email protected]

LT - charge alt-fire 

LT+RT - alt-fire (single bolt, lethal headshot, passes through shield doors, disappears after traveling a short distance) 

X - reload (one alt-fire bolt per primary fire magazine) 

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2 hours ago, Boyo said:

That’s not an alt-fire so much as a control scheme aberration that needed to be addressed for accessibility reasons.  To remotely detonate the pro pipe projectile, the user needs to hold then release the trigger.  If the trigger was tapped with only that rule in place, the user would suicide himself as the projectile would detonate the moment it left the barrel.  

What do you think of the pro pipe being able to alt-fire a similar projectile that, upon trigger release, teleports the user to the projectile’s location instead of detonating it?  Alt-fire to gain a good firing position.  Fire to kill enemy.  

This is some real mental gymnastics man. A "Control scheme aberration" that changes the way a damn weapon functions is an alt-fire. Is exactly the same thing. It didn't "Need to be addressed for accessibility reasons" it could have just ... not existed at all and the weapon would still work.

46 minutes ago, Boyo said:

The Boltshot wouldn’t be able to hold a charged shot indefinitely like the Plasma Pistol.  Here’s the pistols if you’re interested:  

 

Magnum 

RT - fire ([email protected] or 7 bodyshots kill in 1.8s) 

LT - scope (2x) 

X - reload (12 round magazine) 

 

Plasma Pistol 

RT - primary fire (7 bodyshots kill) 

LT - charge alt-fire 

LT+RT - alt-fire (overcharge-shot deshields infantry and stuns vehicles) 

X - toggle firemode 

RT2 - primary fire 

LT2 -  plasma shield 

LT2+RT2 - primary fire through hole in plasma shield 

 

Mauler 

RT - fire (volley of short range projectiles, 2 full volleys kill)

LT - alt-fire (rapidly dropping explosive round, 2 direct impacts kill) 

X - reload (primary fire costs one round, alt-fire costs two of the five round mag)

 

Boltshot 

RT - primary fire ([email protected]

LT - charge alt-fire 

LT+RT - alt-fire (single bolt, lethal headshot, passes through shield doors, disappears after traveling a short distance) 

X - reload (one alt-fire bolt per primary fire magazine) 

So now not only do i need to learn all these weapons and the control scheme for the game as a whole, i also need to learn a totally different control scheme for each weapon? zoom is always zoom, fire is always fire, reload is always reload.  If you can't make the weapon alt-fire work with a simple, single manipulation of one of those (ie hold vs tap trigger, hold/double tap reload vs single) then just make the weapon its own damn thing. And needing to hold 2 buttons at once to use a weapon in Halo? No thanks, go play a hero shooter. This aint the game for that shit.

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Just now, Apoll0 said:

zoom is always zoom, fire is always fire, reload is always reload.

That’s still true here.  Weapons that have a scope all use the same button to activate it.  Weapons that have a magazine all use the same button to reload it.  

2 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

hold vs tap trigger

You would rather the game guess which function you are trying to activate than have the authority to issue that command yourself?  

3 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

hold/double tap reload vs single

Certain actions need to occur immediately on button-press.  I believe reload is one of them.  Ain’t nobody got time to be holding or double tapping reload.  

5 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

make the weapon its own damn thing

Why?  Why are scope and reload the only acceptable functions besides firing?  

6 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

And needing to hold 2 buttons at once to use a weapon in Halo? No thanks, go play a hero shooter. This aint the game for that shit.

I didn’t realize a certain genre had a monopoly on a simple method of activation.  Also, are you not using two buttons at once when scoping and firing?  Why is it so hard to accept that weapons can have a secondary function that’s not scope?  

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The BR projectile should be slow enough to dodge 1 or 2 shots of the burst but 2 perfect burst should be a kill with a TTK of .7 seconds. This is the case in split gate by the way. One thing I do enjoy about that shit game is the weapons

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1 hour ago, Boyo said:

The Boltshot wouldn’t be able to hold a charged shot indefinitely like the Plasma Pistol.  Here’s the pistols if you’re interested:  

 

Magnum 

RT - fire ([email protected] or 7 bodyshots kill in 1.8s) 

LT - scope (2x) 

X - reload (12 round magazine) 

 

Plasma Pistol 

RT - primary fire (7 bodyshots kill) 

LT - charge alt-fire 

LT+RT - alt-fire (overcharge-shot deshields infantry and stuns vehicles) 

X - toggle firemode 

RT2 - primary fire 

LT2 -  plasma shield 

LT2+RT2 - primary fire through hole in plasma shield 

 

Mauler 

RT - fire (volley of short range projectiles, 2 full volleys kill)

LT - alt-fire (rapidly dropping explosive round, 2 direct impacts kill) 

X - reload (primary fire costs one round, alt-fire costs two of the five round mag)

 

Boltshot 

RT - primary fire ([email protected]

LT - charge alt-fire 

LT+RT - alt-fire (single bolt, lethal headshot, passes through shield doors, disappears after traveling a short distance) 

X - reload (one alt-fire bolt per primary fire magazine) 

Honestly I see the problem with weapon sandbox in Halo, current Halo more precise, bit differently. I see it as overworked, cluttered space that needs to be reworked from the ground up.

Strip down the weapon count to absolute minimum, essential set of weapons. Look how they complement each other, how they fit in. The game should be full experience even with this basic set.

Look how you can enhance the experience with adding some "secondary" weapons that don't exactly fit the role of any of the weapons in the basic set, cannot beat the role of the "original", but can serve, let's say in multiple scenarios.

Try to balance everything out. Keep the count reasonable.

You can not keep adding stuff forever. You add something in, you take something out. 

And of course, you have to stay true to the style of the game. When you have sci-fi shooter like Halo, you should take liberty of creating something original, both mechanically and visually, instead of just following some modern trends from other more "realistic" looking games. Why to limit yourself with reality. Break every rule you can to make the gun look and play better.

So the problem as I see it right now is not what we can change, or add, but rather scrap everything and start from scratch.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Hemlax said:

You can not keep adding stuff forever. You add something in, you take something out. 

Why?  Are you planning on putting them all on one map?  

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6 minutes ago, S0UL FLAME said:

You had a hand in H4 Promod didn't you Boyo

tenor.gif?itemid=15003553

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Halo should emphasize health as a mechanic by adding the option to pick up a shieldless armour with a great deal of health at the cost of sacrificing mobility. A chainmail type armour that's mobile but weak to autos since they can break apart it's chain links would be nice too.  These would provide players with interesting and meaningful sandbox decisions across the map and create dynamic map flow. 

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1 minute ago, hvs500 said:

adding the option to pick up a shieldless armour with a great deal of health at the cost of sacrificing mobility.

So, a mech?  Do you think a second suit of power armor over the first is necessary?  

Instead of suitception, why not make a mech analog?  Brutes can control gravity to some degree.  While standing on sand with the Sand Blaster weapon equipped, press X to form a mini sand tornado beneath the user, lifting him up a bit so he can see over the top.  Move over objects to pick them up.  RT to throw them at enemies.  

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2 minutes ago, Boyo said:

So, a mech?  Do you think a second suit of power armor over the first is necessary?  

Instead of suitception, why not make a mech analog?  Brutes can control gravity to some degree.  While standing on sand with the Sand Blaster weapon equipped, press X to form a mini sand tornado beneath the user, lifting him up a bit so he can see over the top.  Move over objects to pick them up.  RT to throw them at enemies.  

I like mechs better.

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1 hour ago, Boyo said:

Why?  Are you planning on putting them all on one map?  

Too much of anything is not good, so they say.

More stuff makes it harder to balance. Doesn't matter they are not all on the same map. They still need to be balanced with each other.

Quality>quantity

Wasted resources that could have been most likely used elsewhere.

Making the game less accessible.

I could come up with more reasons but those seems to be the most apparent confronting the recent history.

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