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I want to ask a certain question on the new CTF. It seems we can sprint with it, and put it on our back replacing our secondary weapon. I noticed the Spartans speed was slower still with it, so that balance is still there. I don’t think this mechanic is as bad. If you’re running the flag and a guy comes out to stop you, your most likely going to drop it and try to kill him. There’s not much of a difference here from what would usually occur normally is there? 

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1 hour ago, RatherSilentMr said:

Are you not in Dallas still?

Nope, I decided hotter weather is better and moved to Oregon 

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18 minutes ago, TiberiusAudley said:

You misunderstand.  It's not about improving CTF, it's about replacing CTF.  In the process of responding to this post my opinion has altered slightly because I remembered Halo 2 was actually great.

Primarily because once you've grabbed a flag the question is less, "Which route do I take?" (because your movement alone is almost never going to score a flag), but rather, "At what point do I need to fight?"  It's a large part of why I've said repeatedly people missed out on Ricochet's potential in Halo because they looked at the base settings given, which tried to copy CoD Uplink, and said "Oh, this is garbage." (It was.)  But it had potential with a much higher score cap and better differentiated score amounts for dunks vs throws...because it then becomes a risk/reward wager and a trade off of if you decide to continue moving or just take the easy points for a ranged shot.

In CTF, though -- you'll notice that the better the teams involved are, the more you see a flag carrier outright stop running the flag.  Which is extremely odd to see be the correct decision to make in a situation for an objective directly related to said flag.  But it usually is, because in Halo a flag carrier (outside of, say, vehicle play, or maps with lifts/teleporters) does not have options to outmaneuver a team that has guns and weaponry that can stop him.

 

I'll grant some concessions here, because Halo 2 actually had some excellent options for CTF maps that added some decision making nuance, but it's nuance we've seen essentially erased in more recent games because the map design has not kept up.

  1. B.Creek - Disregarding the lack of symmetry, this map has a lot to offer a CTF set-up, because someone taking the flag has 3 decisions they can make immediately that all have massive opportunity costs.  Because of this, your route taking actually matters.
    1. Throw the flag out the ceiling/side window.  If you have someone to catch it, you've just massively trimmed your flag route time and guaranteed a fast way to the other side of the map.  If not, you've just become a diversion that makes your opponents pay attention or lose a flag.
    2. Run the flag out low, to the side.  Your opponents have to stop looking forward and look back to stop you.
    3. Run the flag straight out across mid.  You can make a bee-line due to the blocky bases segmenting the map in such a way that makes this a powerful option, but still definitely slower than option 1.
  2. Midship - Top middle allows for fastcaps or teamwork rallied routes that can offset the "hey I need to stop running and fight" instinct.
  3. Warlock - Much lower degree than the others, because the tiny map size lends this one to be more focused on slay-first-run-later, but it has elements that I want to highlight:
    1. Fastest Route: Most people assume the teleporters are the fastest route, but in most of the games that have had a Warlock variant, going straight out, then along the left side (down ramp, straight to your lift side) can outpace most other options.
    2. Teleporters to allow juking: Because of the 2 two-way teleporters, there's plenty of room to attempt to outmaneuver your opponent.  But again, this is more in theory than in practice, since the small map size ultimately just means it's turn and burn anyway, especially in a high communication environment.

So...uh, after actually thinking about this more, my tune is less: "Hey get rid of CTF" and more: "Hey, if you want to have CTF, you need to have more maps like B.Creek, where the flag carrier is forced to make weighted decisions with heavy opportunity costs.

Another decent map example is Narrows, where the safest route is ultimately to run straight under bottom middle -- but a team looking to just rush a flag to their side could always throw it through the lift... but the lift is a very open area and you risk not only dropping the flag off the map, but also sacrificing your numbers advantage elsewhere if the flag gets stopped even for a moment on your side.

 

I agree with you on needing good CTF maps but let’s take an aside to talk about ricochet real quick.

Consider these factors while watching:  a long thin map, the goal inside the base, windows on the base that the ball can be thrown through from outside, the point difference between throws and run-ins, increased player count leads to more players in/near base increasing run-in difficulty, light vehicles help corral larger player count outside bases but relatively tight quarters allow infantry to counter.  

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Boyo said:

let’s take an aside to talk about ricochet real quick.

...care to add anything beyond a video of an utterly chaotic BTB game on a badly designed corridor full of randos?

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2 minutes ago, TiberiusAudley said:

...care to add anything beyond a video of an utterly chaotic BTB game on a badly designed corridor full of randos?

My man, there is a list of parameters right above that I thought helped the map find success.  Do you disagree with any of them?  I think a long thin map with semi enclosed bases plays Ricochet gametypes well because teams need to move up as a group, almost like soccer.  What do you think of that assertion?  

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Ok never mind I take it back the pistol sucks ass even with no bloom because it’s range is so minimal and there’s the spread it still has 

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28 minutes ago, Reamis25 said:

Yo I’m playing No bloom BTB reach AR/pistol starts and it actually feels really good 

 

8 minutes ago, Reamis25 said:

Ok never mind I take it back the pistol sucks ass even with no bloom because it’s range is so minimal and there’s the spread it still has 

Welcome to the exact same thing I went through in 2012.  Why they had to give that pistol a base spread even when unbloomed is BEYOND me, but Jesus fucking Christ, I pushed so hard to get a weapon other than DMR starts in the BTB League we were running because of how oppressive the DMR was...  But that little bit of spread ruined the pistol.

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11 minutes ago, Boyo said:

My man, there is a list of parameters right above that I thought helped the map find success.  Do you disagree with any of them?  I think a long thin map with semi enclosed bases plays Ricochet gametypes well because teams need to move up as a group, almost like soccer.  What do you think of that assertion?  

  • Goal inside Base - Yes, of course.
  • Windows on Base for Out-of-Base Shots - Yes, of course.  Or, open air base tops for sky shots.
  • Throw vs Run-In difference - Not pronounced enough here.  These people were pretty timid with shot taking in the video and once people have a better grasp of shots they can take, you'd see a lot more long range scores.  Dunks should be worth way more on a relative scale.
  • Long, thin map - This is where I diverge.  I think a more diamond-shaped map is better for something like this, giving lots of wide angles to make long range shots from, but still keeping plenty of space in the middle to ensure that it's not just back and forth clusterfucking in the middle until someone gets close enough to throw.  Think along the lines of a larger Warlock, possibly stretched to be thinner between the two main bases, but that general concept where the side bases are potential spawn areas you can force teams to spawn in to give longer windows of opportunity to attempt a dunk.

 

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Should the ricochet map be designed in a manner that discourages/actively prevents a player from acting as the dedicated goalie ie the “through the window” shot comes in at such an angle that it is difficult/impossible to block thereby encouraging all players to play offense so the match isn’t boring to play for anyone?   I think that it’s important to not have “one player standing in front of the goal the whole game” be the optimal strategy.  Thoughts?  

@TiberiusAudley

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i think if there was some way of making the oddball reset without relying on maps you could jump off of, then i think oddball could be the gametype with the most strategy. maybe every x seconds of holding the oddball it resets to a location that only the ball holder sees? 

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1 minute ago, Boyo said:

Should the ricochet map be designed in a manner that discourages/actively prevents a player from acting as the dedicated goalie ie the “through the window” shot comes in at such an angle that it is difficult/impossible to block thereby encouraging all players to play offense so the match isn’t boring to play for anyone?   I think that’s it’s important to not have “one player standing in front of the goal the whole game” be the optimal strategy.  Thoughts?  

@TiberiusAudley

Players should always be encouraged to exert more pressure on the map, unless they are in a situation where they're massively down numbers and need to wait for spawns.  If a person is playing goalie, they're not exerting pressure.

This should either put them in a position that makes them easy to kill (via nade traps or plenty of shooting angles against them), or just generally be ineffective.

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5 hours ago, RatherSilentMr said:

Important Announcement:

@xSociety and I are putting together a Halo Infinite Launch LAN at his new house.  He doesn't know this yet, but y'all are all invited. 

There will be plenty of Pizza, Doritos, and Mt. Dew provided. Maybe even some Cherry Dr. Pepper like the old MLG days.

We also plan to play a bit of MCC CE at the LAN as well.  Metal music will occasionally be played.  Sorry no rap.  We may even listen to Slayer while playing Slayer. 

Feel free to bring your high end PC or Series X and a monitor if you prefer to have your own screen , otherwise a split screen slot will be provided to you.

@OG Nick has volunteered to bring chicken dip and play with the most busted controller. 

 

See you Holiday 2021

Can I play Crawling in my skin on repeat?

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32 minutes ago, vembress said:

i think if there was some way of making the oddball reset without relying on maps you could jump off of, then i think oddball could be the gametype with the most strategy. maybe every x seconds of holding the oddball it resets to a location that only the ball holder sees? 

How would you feel about making the "Oddball" an energy-sapping device attached to the Spartan's shield with a 3s fuse that only the ballholder can set off? Once the 3s passes, the device saps the shields (and health) of the spartan, killing them and resetting the ball. If the ballholder is killed before the fuse timer expires, the ball is dropped as normal.

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I think oddball was born in its peak form. The only problems I have had with oddball (some setups just being so fucking hard to break, ball spawning too far away to challenge the other team before they get it) are issues with the maps not the gametype imo.  

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2 minutes ago, Apoll0 said:

I think oddball was born in its peak form. The only problems I have had with oddball (some setups just being so fucking hard to break, ball spawning too far away to challenge the other team before they get it) are issues with the maps not the gametype imo.  

I still maintain that KotH is a better timed gametype across the board than Oddball, but I think Oddball is an iconic Halo gametype and as long as available maps support it well it should be in the competitive rotation, because SKULLS ARE A MAJOR PART OF HALO (since H2)

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10 minutes ago, TiberiusAudley said:

I still maintain that KotH is a better timed gametype across the board than Oddball, but I think Oddball is an iconic Halo gametype and as long as available maps support it well it should be in the competitive rotation, because SKULLS ARE A MAJOR PART OF HALO (since H2)

In general i greatly prefer objective over anything. Oddball and King probably my favorites.  If there was one good addition to Halo 5 though, it was strongholds.  Halo to me is about controlling territory with freedom and creativity.  I think that's why even though i also like CTF better than slayer, its near the bottom of the list for objective gametypes. While you can take different routes with the flag, there is only one destination and it never changes.

Games like Overwatch are fun for a spell, but the objective play (literally and figuratively) is on rails. The character combo meta might change, but the gametypes always play exactly the same which is probably why I only hop on for a few hours every couple months.   i need to forget how the game actually works before I can have fun in it again haha. Never had that problem with halo.

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2 hours ago, TiberiusAudley said:

Throw the flag out the ceiling/side window.

2 hours ago, TiberiusAudley said:

Teleporters to allow juking

2 hours ago, TiberiusAudley said:

throw it through the lift

2 hours ago, TiberiusAudley said:

the flag carrier is forced to make weighted decisions with heavy opportunity costs.

The mechanic that allows these decisions to be made is Flag Tossing.  The physical ability to independently move the flag a short distance gives the carrier the mental ability to make decisions.  It’s the same in ricochet, the carrier just throws the objective further.  

What other mechanics, besides tossing/throwing the objective, could force the player to make tough choices?

On a large attack/defend asym, the carrier could choose to push toward the ultimate goal of planting the objective or choose to secure an intermediary hill for 15 seconds in order to gain access to an anti-vehicle turret or portal or whatever kind of advantage that portion of the map calls for.  It’s similar to tossing the flag through the window or into the lift; by placing the objective in the right spot, you gain an advantage.  

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1 hour ago, Apoll0 said:

I think oddball was born in its peak form. The only problems I have had with oddball (some setups just being so fucking hard to break, ball spawning too far away to challenge the other team before they get it) are issues with the maps not the gametype imo.  

In social, but not competitive, Oddball carrier should have an icon above their head. I know many, many people will disagree but playing with the ah... how do I put this... average player it's almost necessary.

Better alternative, though can be done in addition: Have the announcer say "Ball taken, kill their carrier!" same as "Kill their carrier" in CTF.

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16 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

In social, but not competitive, Oddball carrier should have an icon above their head. I know many, many people will disagree but playing with the ah... how do I put this... average player it's almost necessary.

Better alternative, though can be done in addition: Have the announcer say "Ball taken, kill their carrier!" same as "Kill their carrier" in CTF.

I agree in cases where the carrier is on an ally's screen, but not other circumstances.

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2 hours ago, TiberiusAudley said:

 

Welcome to the exact same thing I went through in 2012.  Why they had to give that pistol a base spread even when unbloomed is BEYOND me, but Jesus fucking Christ, I pushed so hard to get a weapon other than DMR starts in the BTB League we were running because of how oppressive the DMR was...  But that little bit of spread ruined the pistol.

My problem was that, and when someone had a sniper I couldn’t do shit

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19 minutes ago, Shekkles said:

In social, but not competitive, Oddball carrier should have an icon above their head. I know many, many people will disagree but playing with the ah... how do I put this... average player it's almost necessary.

Better alternative, though can be done in addition: Have the announcer say "Ball taken, kill their carrier!" same as "Kill their carrier" in CTF.

Why shouldn’t I know where the ball carrier is in comp that’s ridiculous 

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1 hour ago, TiberiusAudley said:

I agree in cases where the carrier is on an ally's screen, but not other circumstances.

Not a bad compromise.

1 hour ago, Reamis25 said:

Why shouldn’t I know where the ball carrier is in comp that’s ridiculous 

Because comp players are above average and should gain this knowledge through map/ game knowledge or team communication. They will know an enemy has the ball, but not where. They should use map awareness/knowledge to then acertain where the ball holder is. I am not set on this, I am open to other views.

In social, I don't care that much about radar/motion tracker/additional info like this because in my opinion social playlists should require less brain power.

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