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4 minutes ago, hvs500 said:

The worst part about halo 4 is the lady wailing when you boot up the game.

I wouldn't say worst, but it definitely makes the Chris Puckett Top 5

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17 minutes ago, NavG123 said:

 It’s interesting to me how 343 went from H4, to a decent classic-styled H2A, then made another hard pivot to H5

Certain Affinity made H2A multiplayer. 343 had almost no part with it.

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You know, certain affinity has always annoyed me with how bad everything they make is. Halo 4 forge and multiplayer, I dont think I've liked any of their maps, dooms multiplayer was a trainwreck.

Seriously why do people like them? Explain it to me because I have to be missing something.

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6 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

You know, certain affinity has always annoyed me with how bad everything they make is. Halo 4 forge and multiplayer, I dont think I've liked any of their maps, dooms multiplayer was a trainwreck.

Seriously why do people like them? Explain it to me because I have to be missing something.

Do people like them? I certainly don't. 

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5 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

You know, certain affinity has always annoyed me with how bad everything they make is. Halo 4 forge and multiplayer, I dont think I've liked any of their maps, dooms multiplayer was a trainwreck.

Seriously why do people like them? Explain it to me because I have to be missing something.

the doom maps rank high on the coolness factor, so for that alone i think they are note worthy, even if they wernt balanced, it was a refreshing enough experience for me after being deprived of provacative spaces for so long

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6 hours ago, Cursed Lemon said:

So when you pose the thought experiment of defending camping, bizarre mechanics, etc. you shouldn't be asking "is this boring for the players", you should be asking, "is this boring to watch". Camping is boring to watch. That's as close to an objective fact as exists. What's also arguably boring is watching a Halo game in which there's so much emphasis on teamshot that the game is almost nothing but kill trading, a game where the guns are so easy to use that no kills resonate as impressive/spectacular, so on and so forth.

I don't agree with your logic here on caring more about the spectator experience vs player experience, even for competitive settings, but I agree with your assertion that camping is inherently bad...and I want to use this opportunity to shift the topic focus to something else that should be addressed in -any- competitive discussion:

I think the main question that should be asked, though is, "Is movement encouraged?"

If the answer is ever "No." for both contenders at the same time, then you have a design issue that needs addressed...because either

  1. There's no resource in the game worth fighting over.
  2. You've created a resource imbalance that one side cannot engage against, but the other cannot guarantee success with.

To me, this is why Slayer is such an inherently bad gametype, and why its issues got so exposed on maps like Penance, Pit, and Construct.  The scoring mechanism is "Do not die." which inherently puts value in staying alive over gathering resources.  You may think the scoring mechanism is, "Get kills" but you're wrong, because you can win a game of Team Slayer without ever getting a kill if your opponents ever make a mistake and suicide or betray a teammate -- because the death is punished with a negative 1.  If you have the lead in Pit Slayer, but the enemy team are all alive, you have no reason to attempt to push, because your resource advantages can be lost in the hunt to kill, and the map's nature means that can turn over the power seesaw to your opponent without necessarily giving you the scoring lead.

 

So when it comes to the conversation of storing power-ups, the conversation needs to be handled in the context of:

Does being able to apply a power-up later encourage me to move nowAnd usually, the answer will be no.  And to be frank, the only time it's really beneficial for a team to use it immediately when they could save it for later is if there's another resource on the map immediately ready to be contested.  In Slayer, this might mean a power weapon that spawns on the other side of the map, but in general things end up staggered on most spawns in a way that you'll almost always be encouraged to save for a later push.

In objective gametypes, this is less the case.  Your OS gathered now might not help you protect your current hill, or even contest a hill currently held -- but can better equip your team to take advantages on the upcoming rotation...but unless you're grabbing it on the tail end of a hill cycle, you're probably better off using it to push immediately.  In a Strongholds game, the objectives themselves encourage so much movement that holding-for-later is a risk in and of itself because you're very likely to get forced into a contest somewhere in the process of staying alive -- unless you're in a massive lead already and sitting on a dead spot of the map.  In Bomb/Flag, you're more likely to have calm windows where you're encouraged to hold and wait for the ability to coordinate a push around power weapon usage.

 

So in essence, the ability to conserve power-ups for later is just further doubling down on accenting why certain gametypes are worse than others: it does not actively encourage movement, and in situations where the power level seesaw is not tipped heavily enough in one team's favor, it actively discourages it until a time where stronger resources can be gathered.

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On 6/23/2021 at 11:47 AM, Faeyrin said:

It's only like 8 minutes, man.

...But it's simple. The BR in H3 is too utility and partially negates the whole premise of arena gameplay; trading up for more power. A solid half, if not more, of the sandbox is left neglected because of one weapon that's too overbearing.

No.

 

Every other weapon in Halo 3's Sandbox is either better than The BR in specific situations, or it does something that The BR cannot. The BR is a utility weapon, and as a Utility weapon it is designed so that the average 50th skill percentile player has a reasonable chance to defend themselves off spawn. There is a very good reason that the majority of social montagers fuck on kids whom are spawning with pistols. They cannot defend themselves off spawn. So they get farmed.

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1 hour ago, Mr Grim said:

You know, certain affinity has always annoyed me with how bad everything they make is. Halo 4 forge and multiplayer, I dont think I've liked any of their maps, dooms multiplayer was a trainwreck.

Seriously why do people like them? Explain it to me because I have to be missing something.

 

1 hour ago, VinnyMendoza said:

Do people like them? I certainly don't. 

Hi, hello. I've actually worked with their employees.

 

Let me just say that if you think the Halo 4 MP was made without direct overhead direction from 343, you would be wrong.  Furthermore, Halo 4 MP for all its flaws, was well made.  I think they have very good engineers, and their artists are excellent. The game played without a hitch.  As do all the games that they work on.  They happen to also be like 1 of 3 studios in the world that can make decent feeling aiming next to Bungie and Respawn.  

 

The DOOM MP was an interesting scenario.  I didn't hear about this until after the fact because half my coworkers came from CA but that was a very weird project and strained the relationship between CE and id.  Supposedly, id dumped the mp on them.  Told them what they could do, couldn't do.  But then didn't like it or something idk I don't remember, and then ended up borrowing half the weapons CA made for the MP to be used in the campaign because they hadn't finished the game yet and it was like 3 months from launching. And then when the MP was poorly received they both blamed each other and I'm fairly certain it ruined their working relationship with one another. 

 

All things considered, CA is a really good studio.  And I'd actually consider the Doom 2016 map pool the strongest map pool in any game I've played outside of Halo 2 / 3.  There's a lot of diversity in designs, colors, themes, in Doom 2016 MP and to think they got all of that out of 1: Hell, and 2: Space station, that's pretty creative thinking.

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Holy shit where to do i start. Not quoting anybody, you can figure it out

1) Glomming onto Multi here but yeah, CA is a contractor. Most (maybe all?) of the shit they have done has been projects handed to them and overseen by other studios. They have guidelines they have to follow, not much creative freedom other than probably with map geometry. They should be judged by the technical quality of their work, which is very good.  I would absolutely play a game made solely by them where they also have creative control.

2a) "Game speed" has almost nothing to do with movement speed. Mainly, how fast a game is is dependent on objective progress and player engagement.  Do you feel like you are actively pursuing the objective of the game whether that be kills, flag caps, territories or whatever? And are you almost constantly engaged either with other players directly or pressing the objective?  How fast you move has fuck all to do with any of that. 

2b) Game speed has more to do with kill times since a faster kill time allows you to navigate territory more fluidly and increases the agency of any individual player. While kill times that are too long can lead to a net reduction in individual player agency and standoff-ish games.  Constantly shooting but making no objective progress is also boring and slow despite the fact that you're fingers are doing a lot of work. Kill time balance is important, but i think its often overstated here.

3) If i explain something in paragraph form. Or explained it already 6 posts ago and you want me to explain it AGAIN broken into bullet points for your convenience.... fuck off.

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On the topic of storing power weapons for later use:

Yes, this is true and I noted it in a reply I made several pages ago. This was one of the things that fundamentally separated powerups from power weapons in the earlier games. 

If we really do consider power weapon snowballing a significant enough issue to reckon with, I think the optimal ways to address it are to force a faster game pace (without using introducing more items) or spawn said weapons with less ammo. Faster game pace prevents power weapons from lasting till the next contestable item spawn, less ammo is self explanatory.

I'm not entirely convinced that preventing players who pick up power weapons from trying to stack advantages is an entirely bad thing though - for nothing else if precedent. 

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8 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

 

The DOOM MP was an interesting scenario.  I didn't hear about this until after the fact because half my coworkers came from CA but that was a very weird project and strained the relationship between CE and id.  Supposedly, id dumped the mp on them.  Told them what they could do, couldn't do.  But then didn't like it or something idk I don't remember, and then ended up borrowing half the weapons CA made for the MP to be used in the campaign because they hadn't finished the game yet and it was like 3 months from launching. And then when the MP was poorly received they both blamed each other and I'm fairly certain it ruined their working relationship with one another. 

 

All things considered, CA is a really good studio.  And I'd actually consider the Doom 2016 map pool the strongest map pool in any game I've played outside of Halo 2 / 3.  There's a lot of diversity in designs, colors, themes, in Doom 2016 MP and to think they got all of that out of 1: Hell, and 2: Space station, that's pretty creative thinking.

Interesting backstory. Personally I had a blast in 2016's MP despite the loadout and rune nonsense. That really speaks for the quality of maps and gametypes CA designed. It's a shame that id just completely removed proper PvP MP from Eternal instead of looking at 2016s MP and analyzing what was good and what went wrong and then building from there.

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Why do Halo kids on twitter feel the urge to shit on "competitive players" 24/7, when they've never interacted with them in their entire life? 

Competitive players are arguably just as complacent as your average social kid so it's even more hilarious. Most just quietly move on to the new game because they need to make money and occasionally complain about being forced to play with dumb settings.   

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Alright lads, I think I’ve figured it out.  If we’re going to have pocket power-ups, we also need decaying ammo.  

Once the Energy Rifle has been picked up off its charging cradle, the available ammo begins decreasing, encouraging the player to seek out conflict with his “use it or lose it” pick-up, giving the match structure and ultimately pushing it towards its conclusion.  

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Watched this video a year back and it's had a lasting effect on what my opinion of an ideal Halo PvE's like. 

I've gone from wanting a traditional campaign with CE design to a blend of Unreal (1998) and the best aspects of Halo. 

Think about it: A game with vast, massive and intricately detailed environments that reward exploration, razor-sharply tuned PvE combat that makes Doom: Eternal feel like a COD game, all with the legacy Halo aesthetic, worldbuilding, environmental art, setpieces, and soundtrack.  

Kind of like SPV3 but with the alleged scale of Infinite's PvE, a more comprehensively designed sandbox and the absolute best parts of AFPS design spliced into it's DNA. 

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17 minutes ago, _Synapse said:

A game with vast, massive and intricately detailed environments that reward exploration, razor-sharply tuned PvE combat that makes Doom: Eternal feel like a COD game, all with the legacy Halo aesthetic, worldbuilding, environmental art, setpieces, and soundtrack.  

Kind of like SPV3 but with the alleged scale of Infinite's PvE, a more comprehensively designed sandbox and the absolute best parts of AFPS design spliced into it's DNA. 

What’s your take on gaining items over the course of the game vs starting the game with all of the items?  

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I'm not sure why people are fascinated with the idea of making halo more like 90s arena shooters. Halo is hardly an arena shooter to begin with.

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On 6/24/2021 at 5:45 PM, Faeyrin said:

Halo 4 looked how it did on the 360.

That should be a testament to at least the talent of the graphics team, but a lot more than just artist work goes into graphics. They had to optimize that shit to a painstaking degree to make it look that good on a console that had less than one gigabyte of RAM. I remember being particularly blown away by the cutscene on the Infinity where Cortana flips shit and Chief tells Del Rio to go kick rocks. The lighting was especially impressive. And that said, I have confidence in 343i at least making Infinite look very good on the Xbone. (The downside is that 343i design doesn't entail much out-of-map stuff. Makes map breaking a lot less fun.)

I was one of the very first if not the first to say that H4 would be very visually noisy before it came out just by looking at their sample prefabs. And it was in every map. 343 is very big on art. They have always been trying to impress everyone with their art skills. But do they know how to make Halo play like Halo? That has been the question all along.

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On 6/25/2021 at 5:59 AM, Aphex Twin said:

You can either speed up the game by giving players stronger guns, or you can speed up the game by giving players movement abilities. 

Games like CoD, CS, Valorant, etc.... leaned into the former approach, and they're doing just fine. 

Halo went in the latter direction & the population tanked. 

I think people do want a fast paced game, but the way in which you speed up the game's pace matters. 

Did CoD make the weapons stronger or did they simply not have shields to prolong the fire fight? CoD is pretty much just an ambush scenario and I find that boring.

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On 6/24/2021 at 2:53 PM, MrGreenWithAGun said:

How is H5 campaign an example of what you are saying here?

 

what are you seeing from 343 that offers you this hope that h6 will be better?

It was cut to pieces and shortened to help get the game out during a certain time in the fiscal year rather than when it was ready

It's clear by the delay of Halo Infinite past the XSX that Microsoft understands that Halo needs to be successful on it's own rather than just be a game to sell Xbox consoles. 

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17 hours ago, MultiLockOn said:

 

Hi, hello. I've actually worked with their employees.

 

Let me just say that if you think the Halo 4 MP was made without direct overhead direction from 343, you would be wrong.  Furthermore, Halo 4 MP for all its flaws, was well made.  I think they have very good engineers, and their artists are excellent. The game played without a hitch.  As do all the games that they work on.  They happen to also be like 1 of 3 studios in the world that can make decent feeling aiming next to Bungie and Respawn.  

 

The DOOM MP was an interesting scenario.  I didn't hear about this until after the fact because half my coworkers came from CA but that was a very weird project and strained the relationship between CE and id.  Supposedly, id dumped the mp on them.  Told them what they could do, couldn't do.  But then didn't like it or something idk I don't remember, and then ended up borrowing half the weapons CA made for the MP to be used in the campaign because they hadn't finished the game yet and it was like 3 months from launching. And then when the MP was poorly received they both blamed each other and I'm fairly certain it ruined their working relationship with one another. 

 

All things considered, CA is a really good studio.  And I'd actually consider the Doom 2016 map pool the strongest map pool in any game I've played outside of Halo 2 / 3.  There's a lot of diversity in designs, colors, themes, in Doom 2016 MP and to think they got all of that out of 1: Hell, and 2: Space station, that's pretty creative thinking.

I was going to say it seemed that CA was never creating their own vision but implementing someone else's vision under constraints that they themselves may not have desired. I feel for CA, but that is the model of business they chose for themselves.

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1 hour ago, MrGreenWithAGun said:

Did CoD make the weapons stronger or did they simply not have shields to prolong the fire fight?

Does it matter? 

The end result is a faster TTK & a wildly successful franchise. How does Halo's popularity compare to games like CoD, CS, Valorant, etc...?

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