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Halo Infinite Discussion

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I don't know how to explain how life works to you, Boyo. Sometimes I wonder if your parents even had the birds and bees talk with you yet.

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9 minutes ago, Boyo said:

Could you explain to me what this actually fucking means please?  
 

And this time baby make it BULLEEEEET POOOOOINTS  

I do find it hilarious how you've asked for an explanation in more than just this one conversation but you never actually get it

Your conversations with Xandrith in particular often boil down to you asking for specifics and examples and you just get the "its obvious I don't have to explain it" response every time 

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1 minute ago, Snipe Three said:

I do find it hilarious how you've asked for an explanation in more than just this one conversation but you never actually get it

From what I gather, the forge kid thinks that power weapons and pocket power-ups are the same thing because they’re both activated by a button and we’re all hypocrites for not coming to this conclusion on our own.  

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Speeding up the game too much results in a Halo 5 situation; hold forward and put as much pressure on as fast as possible with less emphasis on coordination.

In my opinion, a lot of people think they want “fast-paced”, and in reality when they get it, it’s “too sweaty”. Look at how many people whine that H5 was tailored to the competitive crowd meanwhile it has disgusting amounts of bullet magnetism, overpowered autos, and fat hitboxes. They’re not saying that the game is too “hard”, they just sense that the game moves at such a pace that it’s difficult to keep up even if they don’t know what exactly it is that makes it feel “sweaty”.

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1 hour ago, Boyo said:

But the conflict would have been resolved quicker and earlier if he couldn’t activate his invincibility item, correct?  What’s the benefit of prolonging the engagement?  

Yes, instant killing someone is faster than using OS to kill them, but what I am saying is that the kill with the OS is even easier to achieve and more guaranteed. So as a baseline, both resolve fights.

Okay, now we can address your assumption that killing someone instantly is objectively better for gameplay than taking time. This is an absurd stance with any amount of reflection. What about average vs optimal ttk? What about the alternate fire modes with strengths and weaknesses you like so much? What about just missing shots because guns are hard to use? What about strafing? What about all of the movement ability ideas you've had, all of which would inevitably extend fights? Clearly you don't actually believe that extending fights is always a bad thing, and yet the foundation of your current argument is just that.

So that's just wrong from the beginning, but what you've then said is that pulling out powerups is worse (and different) than pulling out weapons because one of those powerups, namely OS, could make a fight last longer than an instant kill with a rocket or sword would. So your entire argument against this entire new system, and your reasoning as to why it is completely different than pulling out weapons, is the effect and balance of one item. Are you kidding me?

Real quick, imagine 343 added a gun that prolongs fights by giving you extra health like OS when you swap to it, like a gun shield from Apex. Would it now be reasonable to use the design of this new weapon to argue against the ENTIRE 2 weapon system in Halo? No, of course not. You don't like the design of one item, fine, but to stretch the supposed negative effects of an item to argue against OR FOR a system is plain silly. Not to mention that an overshield is an overshield, whether or not it's activated mid fight or instantly applied when walking over it. It still "prolongs" fights when in play, and yet you seem perfectly fine with it in the context of the previous pickup system. How does that work? Gonna be honest, unpacking all of your tangled logic is getting tiresome.

Anyone can see that pulling out stowed items that are not communicated well introduces randomness, which is what I assumed y'all rightly disliked about this new system, but I guess I was wrong in Boyos case.

Funnily enough as the cherry on top to all of this, with that light trail effect, powerups in the pocket of spartans might be even easier to see than what secondary weapon is on their back or side, making it actually less offensive than the two weapon system when it comes to predictability and knowing what you are facing.

 

 

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Can we all agree that it would be beneficial to find a way of clearly telegraphing everything a player has on them? As said above, the trail for the power-ups will do that, but only for the power-ups. Stowed weapons starting in H3 may indeed show on the player model, but it's plainly not easy to see.

For grenades, though I think telegraphing that might be a bit excessive, a noticeable orange glow could be on leg for frags, and the other leg could have a noticeable blue glow for plasmas. About in the same spot that the pistol or SMG holsters to. For the rest, though, I'm not sure what else would work that wouldn't be overly obtuse. Icons above a player's head if they're in or close to your reticle, maybe? Simply making the backpack weapon be comically large?

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10 minutes ago, NavG123 said:

Speeding up the game too much results in a Halo 5 situation

You can either speed up the game by giving players stronger guns, or you can speed up the game by giving players movement abilities. 

Games like CoD, CS, Valorant, etc.... leaned into the former approach, and they're doing just fine. 

Halo went in the latter direction & the population tanked. 

I think people do want a fast paced game, but the way in which you speed up the game's pace matters. 

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10 minutes ago, Snipe Three said:

I do find it hilarious how you've asked for an explanation in more than just this one conversation but you never actually get it

Your conversations with Xandrith in particular often boil down to you asking for specifics and examples and you just get the "its obvious I don't have to explain it" response every time 

Do you really think I just never explain myself? Man that's really all I do in this place. But, then I call one point about OS obvious and suddenly I never explain?

You know what's especially funny about this is that I literally did explain what I meant about OS previous to this here reply after boyo prodded. I'll admit, you dudes have found a super meta way to counter my arguments with "you don't explain anything". You don't have to contend with arguments if you deny they exist, so props for creativity I guess, but at least this is public so I can feel somewhat vindicated knowing that someone out there understand what I am saying.

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Yeah guys Xandrith definitely explained himself and it also didn't take a braintrust to figure out the explanation by yourself. You guys really do get amped up on your hate boners.

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I think there are a lot of problems I'd have with the new system but it boils down to a couple of things. 

First the power scale of the item in the case of OS is something that will be frustrating if its anything like prior overshields when they decide to move into a better spot before using it in general. You might point to rockets and say that it sucks when this happens with those too and you're right but rockets at the end of the day are far more situational than an OS and you can lose them to someone else when you get out played at any point as long as there is still some effective use remaining. The overshield however once its been used just makes you live and you can combine that with other weapons like your utility weapon to be effective in any scenario. So while on a basic level they're similar concepts the actual consequences for the people playing are drastically different and that's why I feel its a bad fit. I'll fight the rocket guy 10 out of 10 times before I want to 1v1 the OS unless there is so much map between us I can get rid of the OS before either of us ends up challenging until death

The next problem I have is that the predictable nature of the classic power up will be taking a major hit. Instead of the guy being on a timer that everyone is aware of he can now choose to start playing that game at any moment from any location on the map which means that as a player playing against this power up the game just got a lot harder. You can no longer put a couple of shots in the OS from a distance and try to stay alive through the predictable rush as your team tries to control the situation. He might push up part way across the map and then pop it behind some geometry or box or whatever and now not only are you dealing with OS but its closer to you and he didn't give up any of its strength to close that gap. That just seems like a very unnecessary buff 

Another problem that I have is now you could choose to sit back and save OS for the next power weapon cycle or whatever as long as your team and the map have some sort of passive strategy that works out. This is a situation and a problem that never had to happen but here we are and the threat of that is now looming on every map that you place these power ups on. For guys that haven't done such a solid job with map design they're really tempting fate here

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4 minutes ago, Xandrith said:

Do you really think I just never explain myself? Man that's really all I do in this place. But, then I call one point about OS obvious and suddenly I never explain?

You know what's especially funny about this is that I literally did explain what I meant about OS previous to this here reply after boyo prodded. I'll admit, you dudes have found a super meta way to counter my arguments with "you don't explain anything". You don't have to contend with arguments if you deny they exist, so props for creativity I guess, but at least this is public so I can feel somewhat vindicated knowing that someone out there understand what I am saying.

I didn't say never I was just commenting that it happens with you and Boyo specifically so much that its more comedy than a real discussion most of the time

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1 minute ago, Snipe Three said:

I didn't say never I was just commenting that it happens with you and Boyo specifically so much that its more comedy than a real discussion most of the time

Well you said that boyo never gets an explanation from me, but that's all I do! I'm probably one of the few who actually tries to answer his questions, so that's just completely unfair to say. Just because he's adamant that I don't explain myself doesn't mean it's true. I think my paragraphs on paragraphs in response to him speak for themselves.

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This thread would probably be a hundred pages less if people didn't respond to Boyo's never ending stream of questions. And 200 less without his wack ass ideas.

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People are trying to diferentiate a lot what seems to be competitive and casual experience. And maybe that is the problem. Bad mechanics, weapon design and other sandbox elements and interactions are bad for both casual and competitive experience. In the same time, highly competitive game can be a great casual experience too without making big changes to the settings. Like, hey, the original trilogy.

Now there will never be settings that will please everyone and there will be always those arguments as to what works or doesn't in competitive play. But what we have here is 343 implementing new elements while still kind of trying to preserve the Halo experience. And that just doesn't work, or at least, they haven't found the right balance yet. Halo is very specific experience, there is not really a similar game in the marked that actually has any audience and population. 

You think classic Halo wouldn't work now days? It wouldn't sell? Maybe not. But trying to mix it with call of duty or generally making it play more like other games didn't work either so far. What we are left with are weird half breeds that no-one really wants to play, and every iteration is just a new spin to the concept of mixing something that doesn't and can't work. Somebody was trying to explain to me the definition of insanity...

Going back to what I started with. There doesn't have to be a big difference between casual and competitive and there are many examples of that even now. Just think about successful multiplayer games that are leading the market.

If there was someone from 343 management team reading this, I would send this message. Don't think in numbers, think about what makes a good game. The numbers will come.

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A dedicated game mode called "Grief" that they could rotate in for a weekly playlist. A normal 4v4 Halo game, 3 players on each team is given the actual objective but 1 guy on each team is told to make life hell for their own team. The difference here is that they actually get points for doing this stuff and actually progress in the Season.

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2 hours ago, Faeyrin said:

This thread would probably be a hundred pages less if people didn't respond to Boyo's never ending stream of questions. And 200 less without his wack ass ideas.

Question is, is there really (or was in recent years) something to talk about.

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3 hours ago, Faeyrin said:

Lemon has good thoughts, but both you and Boyo are blatantly strawmanning my point about camping. There is action in inaction. A pro and con to every play. A sacrifice for every decision. That doesn't just apply to Halo or even games -- that's a fundamental of existence.

Also, who said that this is explicitly an eSports forum? At the very least, this section of it is clearly called "general discussion". It was definitely born out of the MLG scene, sure, and the temperament clearly leans toward competitive play. Don't get me wrong, I'm a very competitive person.

I'm strawmanning? You brought up radar and said well let's not just throw out the idea, and that slower gameplay can be better. You also built up a strawman that we want a game that revolves around mindless chasing of powerups. Have you actually watched high level h1 and h2 matches? There's a ton of baiting people into 2v1 situations and trying to take advantage of the spawn system. A lot of matches boil down to who can best predict spawn locations which requires team coordination, not just running around the map. And in H2 certain maps are completely dependent on team set ups with overlapping fields of fire. 

 

 

I'm actually not totally opposed to slow gameplay but I think it can arise naturally. The ending of many h1 and 2 matches have slowed to stalemates that have lasted for minutes, without radar enabled, with mechanics that generally encourage fast movement. This slowing happens at appropriate times at the end of really close matches where tension is high for players and viewers alike where the next set of kills will determine the outcome, so not making a mistake is paramount. What we're opposed to is players dicking around for an entire 15 minute match length when there is no tension built up yet. 

 

Also this forum is very competitive focused, I have no idea why you think it's not. 

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24 minutes ago, VinnyMendoza said:

Also this forum is very competitive focused, I have no idea why you think it's not. 

  :simms:

4 hours ago, Faeyrin said:

Also, who said that this is explicitly an eSports forum? At the very least, this section of it is clearly called "general discussion". It was definitely born out of the MLG scene, sure, and the temperament clearly leans toward competitive play. Don't get me wrong, I'm a very competitive person.

If your reading comprehension fails you with even my short posts, then it'd be a waste of effort to further elucidate on my longer thoughts.

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28 minutes ago, VinnyMendoza said:

Also this forum is very competitive focused, I have no idea why you think it's not. 

Boyo

 

I don't actually dislike the guy and at least he tries 

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44 minutes ago, Faeyrin said:

  :simms:

If your reading comprehension fails you with even my short posts, then it'd be a waste of effort to further elucidate on my longer thoughts.

Yes I read and understood what you said, but you give this air as if we've been talking about anything except the impact of settings to the competitive landscape of Infinite in the last 50 pages of this thread. 

"Elucidate" lmao gtfoutta here 

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Unrelated but H2A was a great game. It just needed slightly less aim assist. It’s interesting to me how 343 went from H4, to a decent classic-styled H2A, then made another hard pivot to H5

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14 hours ago, Shekkles said:

The worst part about Halo 4, above everything else, is that they got given Reach's UI and didn't use it.

The worst part about halo 4 is the lady wailing when you boot up the game.

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